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latest newsletter

Post  maxischn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:34 am

I wonder why a provisional board that won't continue after the next elections starts changing the rules? furthermore without agreement of other nations, but always talking about communication....

so many things have been promised and now they do literally "something" just in case. I hope the new board will revert this useless rule

just ridiculous

quoting the newsletter for you, as it can't be found on any offical communicated site or forum

CIRCULAR0022 6th June 2010
To: All Presidents
Dear Presidents
6 players for a team
From time to time, the FISTF board receives suggestions in order to improve the sports of table football.
It’s our commitment to tackle these suggestions and try to take the best out and implement them in
order to continue the improving of our sports.
Recently, a suggestion by a particular club was to introduce the sixth (6th) player when it comes to
official matches between teams.
After a detailed process of studying the possibility of advantages and disadvantages of this proposal,
the Sports Department of FISTF in agreement with the board of FISTF would like to announce that as
from 1st September 2010 a change will be implemented in the team matches procedure.
This change will affects the team events and give more tactical possibilities to the team captains.
Actually the team captain of each team can nominate 5 players for a game and if needed select 1
change (substitute) during the half-time period of the game.
The decision was taken to change the number of players who can be nominated for a team match. The
captain of a team can nominate 6 players, instead of the 5 till now, for any team match with affect from
1st September 2010. There will be still only 1 change possible during the half-time. The change of this
rule will give the opportunity to captains/coaches to make a choice between two players and thus giving
the opportunity to more tactical thoughts between the captains.
Should any national federation or club would like more explanation please do not hesitate to contact us.
Truly in Sports
Silvio Catania
FISTF President
This correspondence was issued by the Sports Department – Mr Stefano De Francesco
All communications should be addressed to the Secretary to the Board
Please always quote the reference up here when replying to this communication.
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  maxischn on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:48 am

and well to add some kind of discussion, i think it's way more tactics to decide who will be your 5th player and substitute instead of nominating all and everything you got and just decide by situation in a game
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  von K. on Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:23 am

maxischn wrote:I wonder why a provisional board that won't continue after the next elections starts changing the rules? furthermore without agreement of other nations, but always talking about communication....

I was apparently enough to get about 20 actives in the italian forum behind this idea. It was discussed (not very critically this time, but with a touchingly unanimous hype) for a week or two in there.

maxischn wrote:and well to add some kind of discussion, i think it's way more tactics to decide who will be your 5th player and substitute instead of nominating all and everything you got and just decide by situation in a game

This is a very good point and argument that was completely absent in the discussion in Italy. I don't know yet if it is a better argument than the argument for the rule, but it has to be thought of before decision.

This is a prime example why things need to be discussed with diverse people from diverse surroundings. Otherwise some arguments are never thought of.

I hope that whoever is in the new Board will understand this, stop thinking they are omnipotent and understand that discussion is vital for getting to know all the problems and arguments in different matters. No one is able to see and think everything alone.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:22 am

Sorry, but I think it's becoming a bit boring.
There are of course things to complain about, but everytime, when there is an announcement there is following a complaint do you really think that's the right way to be accepted? The real bad points and problems need more attention, if somebody complains about everything, no board will take you for real.
I don't see any reason to complain about that rule, it is not a MUST to nominate 6 players, it should only help, if teams with 6 players are at a tournament, because you don't need to take out 1 player out of the whole game. The player at least will be on the sheet and can play a half.
Please tell me a disadvantage of that rule?

Heinz

von K. wrote:
maxischn wrote:I wonder why a provisional board that won't continue after the next elections starts changing the rules? furthermore without agreement of other nations, but always talking about communication....

I was apparently enough to get about 20 actives in the italian forum behind this idea. It was discussed (not very critically this time, but with a touchingly unanimous hype) for a week or two in there.

maxischn wrote:and well to add some kind of discussion, i think it's way more tactics to decide who will be your 5th player and substitute instead of nominating all and everything you got and just decide by situation in a game

This is a very good point and argument that was completely absent in the discussion in Italy. I don't know yet if it is a better argument than the argument for the rule, but it has to be thought of before decision.

This is a prime example why things need to be discussed with diverse people from diverse surroundings. Otherwise some arguments are never thought of.

I hope that whoever is in the new Board will understand this, stop thinking they are omnipotent and understand that discussion is vital for getting to know all the problems and arguments in different matters. No one is able to see and think everything alone.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  drastis on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:26 am

I think complains come because the BoD do not bother to communicate anything before putting it in a circular and sending it to the Presidents of the associations. Trying to look "innovative" and "professional" the BoD behaves as typically as possible, which is something that disturbs people and make them react. However, it is common knowledge that people do not like surprises, unless it is a birthday party. Not necessarily a good thing then, that the new BoD is full of "surprises"!!

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:30 am

As I said, I agree on complaints, but I think there is no need to complain about that change, that's all I wanted to say. There are much more important things with negative aspects in my opinion.

Heinz

drastis wrote:I think complains come because the BoD do not bother to communicate anything before putting it in a circular and sending it to the Presidents of the associations. Trying to look "innovative" and "professional" the BoD behaves as typically as possible, which is something that disturbs people and make them react. However, it is common knowledge that people do not like surprises, unless it is a birthday party. Not necessarily a good thing then, that the new BoD is full of "surprises"!!

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Admin on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:37 am

The new rule is as it is (not good - not bad). The disturbing thing is the way decisions are taken. An italian player put an idea on the italian forum and a few days later there is a decision taken, more than probably without asking the opinion of the national associations. Just strange...

I wonder why this kind of decision is taken but there is no answer to other significant questions. for instance about the homologation of material, we know that the UNIVERSAL BASES and REAL SOCCER are the same. Real Soccer (made in belgium) was first on the market and asked the homologation more than 6 months ago and still has no answer while Universal Bases (made in Italy) have been homologated for months. How comes?

Sorry but this is exactly the kind of issues proving the Board can not concentrate on PRIORITIES.
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:14 pm

It wasn't a decision after a discussion on a forum.
There was sent an official request and the sports department took the decision to change that.

Heinz

Admin wrote:The new rule is as it is (not good - not bad). The disturbing thing is the way decisions are taken. An italian player put an idea on the italian forum and a few days later there is a decision taken, more than probably without asking the opinion of the national associations. Just strange...

I wonder why this kind of decision is taken but there is no answer to other significant questions. for instance about the homologation of material, we know that the UNIVERSAL BASES and REAL SOCCER are the same. Real Soccer (made in belgium) was first on the market and asked the homologation more than 6 months ago and still has no answer while Universal Bases (made in Italy) have been homologated for months. How comes?

Sorry but this is exactly the kind of issues proving the Board can not concentrate on PRIORITIES.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:19 pm

Vincent, you're not telling the truth about approvals:

Real Soccer have been publicized by you before the approval.

They are a copy of the Extreme works (words of you).

Now you can not complain about other similar bases ... also approved by Heinz.

The argument approvals is a very serious thing, we've tried to treat it seriously.

Nobody is worrying about the toxicity of the paintings, the warnings, the EEC Approvers .. etc.etc.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:24 pm

Piero, you got something wrong.
I homologated only 1 type of bases sent by Paolo Corazza.

The rest was already homologated or never sent for homologation.

Heinz

pierocapponi wrote:Vincent, you're not telling the truth about approvals:

Real Soccer have been publicized by you before the approval.

They are a copy of the Extreme works (words of you).

Now you can not complain about other similar bases ... also approved by Heinz.

The argument approvals is a very serious thing, we've tried to treat it seriously.

Nobody is worrying about the toxicity of the paintings, the warnings, the EEC Approvers .. etc.etc.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Admin on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:27 pm

The Real Soccer samples were given in Frankfurt and all pictures with details had already been sent in november.
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:31 pm

Heinz,

Universal Bases is a trading name of Paolo Corazza bases ...!

Vincet,

when you advertise the Real Soccer, in facebook, in charge of approvals was me.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:34 pm

I know that Piero, but it was the only type of base I homologated.
The rest was done by other sport directors or they were not sent to homologate but they sold it on the circuit.

Heinz

pierocapponi wrote:Heinz,

Universal Bases is a trading name of Paolo Corazza bases ...!

Vincet,

when you advertise the Real Soccer, in facebook, in charge of approvals was me.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  maxischn on Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:36 pm

as others already said before, it's not the rule itself (which is still completely useless and nonsense in my opinion) but the way it is done.

and it looks like the bod just does something (useful or not) so they can at least say they did anything before the upcoming elections
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  von K. on Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:41 am

Hi Heinz,

I understand that it can be boring. But who is responsible for that? For example Drastis had a good point about that.

Please see the bolded parts (below) of my text you quoted.

I haven't complained about the rule, as I haven't really seen a proper argument for or against. How can anyone build an opinion without that?

And if a decision is based on the argument of tactical possibilities, a counter argument of Maxischn about the game being more tactical with only choosing one player as a substitute, has to be discussed before decision. You can take football as an example. There is a limit to substitutes on the bench. It's more tactics before the game, and less tactics during the game. Which is more important and why, is the question.

Also the criticism regarding lack of discussion, communication and information with nations in almost all matters is extremely valid criticism. Whether the decision is correct or not, plays no part in that.

About the homologation in general (not knowing about this situation). It's quite clear that the material that is sent in first is first in line for homologation. It doesn't matter what it is or by who it is made. Chronological order is the only fair way to do that, in my opinion. (another discussion maybe)

Piero had a very good point about the lack of knowledge about the toxicity etc. of materials. Especially if this game is played by children, the polishes, plastics and the paints have to be secure (control can be a problem especially when produced outside of Europe). I think there is a EU law or something about this, too. But it's also in our own interest. (another discussion this too)

Heinz Eder wrote:Sorry, but I think it's becoming a bit boring.
There are of course things to complain about, but everytime, when there is an announcement there is following a complaint do you really think that's the right way to be accepted? The real bad points and problems need more attention, if somebody complains about everything, no board will take you for real.
I don't see any reason to complain about that rule, it is not a MUST to nominate 6 players, it should only help, if teams with 6 players are at a tournament, because you don't need to take out 1 player out of the whole game. The player at least will be on the sheet and can play a half.
Please tell me a disadvantage of that rule?

Heinz

von K. wrote:
maxischn wrote:I wonder why a provisional board that won't continue after the next elections starts changing the rules? furthermore without agreement of other nations, but always talking about communication....

I was apparently enough to get about 20 actives in the italian forum behind this idea. It was discussed (not very critically this time, but with a touchingly unanimous hype) for a week or two in there.

maxischn wrote:and well to add some kind of discussion, i think it's way more tactics to decide who will be your 5th player and substitute instead of nominating all and everything you got and just decide by situation in a game

This is a very good point and argument that was completely absent in the discussion in Italy. I don't know yet if it is a better argument than the argument for the rule, but it has to be thought of before decision.

This is a prime example why things need to be discussed with diverse people from diverse surroundings. Otherwise some arguments are never thought of.

I hope that whoever is in the new Board will understand this, stop thinking they are omnipotent and understand that discussion is vital for getting to know all the problems and arguments in different matters. No one is able to see and think everything alone.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:33 pm

I think you got me wrong.
Except of maxischn's comment I can't find anything negative about that rule. Most people wrote that it is not positive and not negative, it is just ok.
You wrote that you don't complain about the rule (the topic is about that), but the way the decision was taken. Honestly I want to say, this forum is a place for players to discuss about several things, and in my opinion players are not the right ones to complain about the way decisions are taken or communicated by the FISTF Board. This is absolutely the job of those associations, who are member of FISTF. FISTF is made of associations, associations are made of players or clubs (depends on the statutes). Most of the players who post here voted or are even members of the board in their association.
In the current situation it is very easy for associations, they were not asked about anything, but they also didn't complain officially about it. So i think it would be better to blame the boards of your associations not to be able to send an official complaint about the way several decisions were taken in the last months instead of blaming every time the current FISTF Board (that's what I mean when saying it becomes boring). As it seems the associations don't have a problem with the actual situation, or they are only not willed to start working because they maybe don't want to be involved more in the end. Complaining doesn't take that much time than working constructive. Cool

You and some others tried it now about 10 times and nothing changed, do you really think it will change if you continue another 20 times to complain about the way decisions are taken and communication is done? I think it would be time to think about other possibilities, that's what i meant with boring too.

Back to the discussion about the rule I want to add that this rule is not tactical, it is only made to give teams the possibility (it is not an obligation) to nominate a 6th player, because actually the 6 th player of a team has no chance to play. 7 players is a bad number too, but then the club has the choice to play with a 2nd team, that's for me the big advantage of that rule, and because of that I think it is a positive rule without having a big affect.

Heinz

von K. wrote:Hi Heinz,

I understand that it can be boring. But who is responsible for that? For example Drastis had a good point about that.

Please see the bolded parts (below) of my text you quoted.

I haven't complained about the rule, as I haven't really seen a proper argument for or against. How can anyone build an opinion without that?

And if a decision is based on the argument of tactical possibilities, a counter argument of Maxischn about the game being more tactical with only choosing one player as a substitute, has to be discussed before decision. You can take football as an example. There is a limit to substitutes on the bench. It's more tactics before the game, and less tactics during the game. Which is more important and why, is the question.

Also the criticism regarding lack of discussion, communication and information with nations in almost all matters is extremely valid criticism. Whether the decision is correct or not, plays no part in that.

About the homologation in general (not knowing about this situation). It's quite clear that the material that is sent in first is first in line for homologation. It doesn't matter what it is or by who it is made. Chronological order is the only fair way to do that, in my opinion. (another discussion maybe)

Piero had a very good point about the lack of knowledge about the toxicity etc. of materials. Especially if this game is played by children, the polishes, plastics and the paints have to be secure (control can be a problem especially when produced outside of Europe). I think there is a EU law or something about this, too. But it's also in our own interest. (another discussion this too)

Heinz Eder wrote:Sorry, but I think it's becoming a bit boring.
There are of course things to complain about, but everytime, when there is an announcement there is following a complaint do you really think that's the right way to be accepted? The real bad points and problems need more attention, if somebody complains about everything, no board will take you for real.
I don't see any reason to complain about that rule, it is not a MUST to nominate 6 players, it should only help, if teams with 6 players are at a tournament, because you don't need to take out 1 player out of the whole game. The player at least will be on the sheet and can play a half.
Please tell me a disadvantage of that rule?

Heinz

von K. wrote:
maxischn wrote:I wonder why a provisional board that won't continue after the next elections starts changing the rules? furthermore without agreement of other nations, but always talking about communication....

I was apparently enough to get about 20 actives in the italian forum behind this idea. It was discussed (not very critically this time, but with a touchingly unanimous hype) for a week or two in there.

maxischn wrote:and well to add some kind of discussion, i think it's way more tactics to decide who will be your 5th player and substitute instead of nominating all and everything you got and just decide by situation in a game

This is a very good point and argument that was completely absent in the discussion in Italy. I don't know yet if it is a better argument than the argument for the rule, but it has to be thought of before decision.

This is a prime example why things need to be discussed with diverse people from diverse surroundings. Otherwise some arguments are never thought of.

I hope that whoever is in the new Board will understand this, stop thinking they are omnipotent and understand that discussion is vital for getting to know all the problems and arguments in different matters. No one is able to see and think everything alone.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Martin Hodds on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:08 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Back to the discussion about the rule I want to add that this rule is not tactical, it is only made to give teams the possibility (it is not an obligation) to nominate a 6th player, because actually the 6 th player of a team has no chance to play. 7 players is a bad number too, but then the club has the choice to play with a 2nd team, that's for me the big advantage of that rule, and because of that I think it is a positive rule without having a big affect.

Heinz
I agree with that entirely. Very Happy

If Yorkshire have 7 players then we would usually have 2 teams, but 6 is a very awkward number so this would help all players to be involved.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Admin on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:29 pm

But at the end only 4 are playing. if you have 7 players at a tournament and you want them all to play, it's obviously quite better to have 2 teams, even if the 2nd team has only 3 players. Or I am missing something?
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:34 pm

Exactly but with 6 players you only could form 2 teams with 3 players, which is nonsense or the captain has to choose one player who is totally out of the game then.
So I think it is more than fair that 6 players can be written on the sheet and the captain can choose between 2 subs in the half-time.

Heinz

Admin wrote:But at the end only 4 are playing. if you have 7 players at a tournament and you want them all to play, it's obviously quite better to have 2 teams, even if the 2nd team has only 3 players. Or I am missing something?

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:13 pm

think there rules (like this) they must be able to change the Director of Sports.

Then there are others that maybe have to move the board (such as the European Cup)

Further, the most important, has to go through the Congress of the countries. (Such as introducing a single goalkeeper).

In any case the rules are the responsibility of the players. That would be a referendum and the referendum are in the nations. not in the associations sports.

A permanent commission, super partes, mixed, and with sufficient authority (type the International Board for football) could be the perfect instrument. but there and not see it propose in the short term.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  maxischn on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:55 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
Honestly I want to say, this forum is a place for players to discuss about several things, and in my opinion players are not the right ones to complain about the way decisions are taken or communicated by the FISTF Board.

at least in an italian forum players are asked for their opionion and there there a complains are valid... funny


In the current situation it is very easy for associations, they were not asked about anything, but they also didn't complain officially about it.
i would have to write a letter every day then..... and it will never get answered or treated as we can see, there won't be any official answer to complaints as we read in this forum more than often...

As it seems the associations don't have a problem with the actual situation, or they are only not willed to start working because they maybe don't want to be involved more in the end. Complaining doesn't take that much time than working constructive. Cool


there have been various offical complaints (by belgium, germany at least) and none of them got answered.... so what? that's even more boring, a board that does what it wants and won't even answer to complaints

You and some others tried it now about 10 times and nothing changed, do you really think it will change if you continue another 20 times to complain about the way decisions are taken and communication is done?

and an official complaint by an association would do it? never laughed that hard for a long time Smile

Back to the discussion about the rule I want to add that this rule is not tactical, it is only made to give teams the possibility (it is not an obligation) to nominate a 6th player, because actually the 6 th player of a team has no chance to play. 7 players is a bad number too, but then the club has the choice to play with a 2nd team, that's for me the big advantage of that rule, and because of that I think it is a positive rule without having a big affect.

why use a limit then anyhow? just bring all you got and play with whoever you want..... fair for all, but it completly ruins all tactics.... but that never counts, italy already decided in their forum Smile
this rule just favours large teams with strong players, nothing more, nothing less and this is just bad, rules for the (italian) elite
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Re: latest newsletter

Post  von K. on Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:23 pm

Now I get your point, Heinz. And for me you're partly right. But many decisions are supposed to be asked from the associations before a decision. It's a matter of taste which should be asked and which made by a single person without any discussion (except in Italy).

If a rule is presented with argument about tactics then that can and should be counter argued if needed. You said it isn't about tactics, but for FISTF it seemed to be.

Some associations, as you know, have people in charge who are not active (or are afraid to say anything internationally), and for example in Finland we can't change until the autumn. Also some associations have people who are not talking to some players. Also players in a country can have a different view on things. So if for example in Italy there are 2000 players who dislike the rule, and 2000 who like it, then if the association decides something, none of the 2000 players can tell their different view here and complain about the decision. I can be wrong with this, but I don't think it's the best way either. Or there can be 49% of the players in a country that the majority and the association is fighting with. Should they have no say at all to anything?

I also think that this is a forum for all the table football world (including players) to discuss all things. Not only the things we agree with. Complaining can be boring, and maybe changes nothing, but I think it's better to show that you don't like something even if your association doesn't have a view.

And as we see, after the complaints there have been valid arguments from Martin and Heinz, that wre not mentioned anywhere. I'm not sure if they are better than Maxi's but at least they are said.

Rules and decisions are better received if they are not coming by surprise and if they are well argued when presented. Basic psychology. This time the newsletter said something about "detailed studies" but the only argument presented was tactics. Why not give small info about the pro's and con's of the rule that we're studied.

I also dislike the fact (and many others too) written by Maxischn that the rules are always discussed in the italian forum, but still you say they shouldn't be discussed with other players. I don't think it's the right way to do it.

You, Heinz, seem like a man who likes to treat people equally, and not taking sides, but I really don't see the equality in the discussion or the decision making process at the moment.

We wouldn't need all these boring complaints if things were done in the proper manner.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:30 pm

You didn't get the point.
In my opinion national associations should complain officially about the wrong way of taking decisions, that's all. I don't think that players should have to think about that and to complain about that, because we are talking here about "back-office" activities, the players even shouldn't see in best case, because the FISTF Board and national federations are handling that between each other.
A discussion about the rule itself would be a good point for that forum, the same way the discussion about the new Europa Cup system is a good discussion for that forum, but the discussions should only point out good and bad points based on the circular about the Europa Cup system and not if the system should be implemented this or next season, or if it was decided in Frankfurt to send only a proposal, that should be important to discuss between associations and FISTF but not in front of the players.

If 2 associations complained and didn't get an answer, maybe some more are needed to force the board to answer. 2 out of 15 isn't much. The rest is sitting and doing nothing and maybe even complains behind the backs of the current FISTF Board.
Do you really think it is better to leave 2 associations on their own, only because 4 or 5 other associations think, it doesn't help because those 2 didn't get an answer?

About the rule, it doesn't help to move to an extreme. 6 players of the same club are a problem at a team tournament. I hope you can see a difference between taking only 6 or like you proposed sarcastic to take all players who are there.
I don't think it is only an advantage for the elite, if you have 2 different types of players as number 5 and 6 and you can react in both ways in half time, whatever is needed (more offense or more defense).

The request was sent by an italian club, maybe they started a discussion in Italy before sending the request, so maybe Piero or Stefano could overtake such kind of discussion to this forum too in future.

Heinz

maxischn wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
Honestly I want to say, this forum is a place for players to discuss about several things, and in my opinion players are not the right ones to complain about the way decisions are taken or communicated by the FISTF Board.

at least in an italian forum players are asked for their opionion and there there a complains are valid... funny


In the current situation it is very easy for associations, they were not asked about anything, but they also didn't complain officially about it.
i would have to write a letter every day then..... and it will never get answered or treated as we can see, there won't be any official answer to complaints as we read in this forum more than often...

As it seems the associations don't have a problem with the actual situation, or they are only not willed to start working because they maybe don't want to be involved more in the end. Complaining doesn't take that much time than working constructive. Cool


there have been various offical complaints (by belgium, germany at least) and none of them got answered.... so what? that's even more boring, a board that does what it wants and won't even answer to complaints

You and some others tried it now about 10 times and nothing changed, do you really think it will change if you continue another 20 times to complain about the way decisions are taken and communication is done?

and an official complaint by an association would do it? never laughed that hard for a long time Smile

Back to the discussion about the rule I want to add that this rule is not tactical, it is only made to give teams the possibility (it is not an obligation) to nominate a 6th player, because actually the 6 th player of a team has no chance to play. 7 players is a bad number too, but then the club has the choice to play with a 2nd team, that's for me the big advantage of that rule, and because of that I think it is a positive rule without having a big affect.

why use a limit then anyhow? just bring all you got and play with whoever you want..... fair for all, but it completly ruins all tactics.... but that never counts, italy already decided in their forum Smile
this rule just favours large teams with strong players, nothing more, nothing less and this is just bad, rules for the (italian) elite

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:17 pm

I know all those problems, but that can't be problems for a FISTF Board, these are problems in the associations, that's my point. That was also the problem in the past, but if there really should be a change, the associations must change too.
It can't be the fault of a FISTF Board that associations don't want to say something or don't talk to players in their association. That kind of discussion has to be done in the association. If "only" 49% agree with you then it is up to you to discuss nationally to get the other 2%, it shouldn't be a matter on an international discussion forum.
People like you and others here, who are interested in topics like organization of the federation or the right way of communication between FISTF and associations are those people who should candidate for the national board, the FISTF Board or a commission, there is the right place to change things.
If you want to discuss about that here, I would propose to open an own thread with a clear name, instead of opening the same discussion in 10 different threads.

Cool

Heinz


von K. wrote:Now I get your point, Heinz. And for me you're partly right. But many decisions are supposed to be asked from the associations before a decision. It's a matter of taste which should be asked and which made by a single person without any discussion (except in Italy).

If a rule is presented with argument about tactics then that can and should be counter argued if needed. You said it isn't about tactics, but for FISTF it seemed to be.

Some associations, as you know, have people in charge who are not active (or are afraid to say anything internationally), and for example in Finland we can't change until the autumn. Also some associations have people who are not talking to some players. Also players in a country can have a different view on things. So if for example in Italy there are 2000 players who dislike the rule, and 2000 who like it, then if the association decides something, none of the 2000 players can tell their different view here and complain about the decision. I can be wrong with this, but I don't think it's the best way either. Or there can be 49% of the players in a country that the majority and the association is fighting with. Should they have no say at all to anything?

I also think that this is a forum for all the table football world (including players) to discuss all things. Not only the things we agree with. Complaining can be boring, and maybe changes nothing, but I think it's better to show that you don't like something even if your association doesn't have a view.

And as we see, after the complaints there have been valid arguments from Martin and Heinz, that wre not mentioned anywhere. I'm not sure if they are better than Maxi's but at least they are said.

Rules and decisions are better received if they are not coming by surprise and if they are well argued when presented. Basic psychology. This time the newsletter said something about "detailed studies" but the only argument presented was tactics. Why not give small info about the pro's and con's of the rule that we're studied.

I also dislike the fact (and many others too) written by Maxischn that the rules are always discussed in the italian forum, but still you say they shouldn't be discussed with other players. I don't think it's the right way to do it.

You, Heinz, seem like a man who likes to treat people equally, and not taking sides, but I really don't see the equality in the discussion or the decision making process at the moment.

We wouldn't need all these boring complaints if things were done in the proper manner.

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Re: latest newsletter

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:35 am

[quote="maxischn"]
Heinz Eder wrote:In the current situation it is very easy for associations, they were not asked about anything, but they also didn't complain officially about it.

i would have to write a letter every day then..... and it will never get answered or treated as we can see, there won't be any official answer to complaints as we read in this forum more than often..[quote]


In this point I have to agree 100% with maxischn. Even when sending complaints (may be a better word: "suggestions") you don't get answers or non-satisfying answers after weeks. I already got an answer stating that "we" (the german association) are only complaining about almost everything.
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