FISTF Elections

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  zinga on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:14 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Member:

Thossa Busing,
Laurent Garnier
Jenus Gersie,
Christos Aggelinas,
Alan Collins,
Frederic Venton,
Leonidas Koutrumanos (en two category)
George Drazinakis (the other Greek federation)
Luis Horta.
I would like to know from which board position they are interested in? Also, Vincent could open a dedicated topic for discussion, where questions could be asked from the candidates, and where candidates could post their agendas.
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:16 pm

You forgot Fred Vulpes.
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:18 pm

[quote="zinga"]
pierocapponi wrote:Vincent could open a dedicated topic for discussion, where questions could be asked from the candidates, and where candidates could post their agendas.

Certainly a good idea.
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Admin on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:34 pm

[quote="Thossa"]
zinga wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:Vincent could open a dedicated topic for discussion, where questions could be asked from the candidates, and where candidates could post their agendas.

Certainly a good idea.
Anyone can open it... Very Happy
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  von K. on Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:58 pm

zinga wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:Ends here my international experience which I believe ... ridiculous. An appointment, an election won and two resignations in the space of 10 months are really a personal defeat. Those who know me well know that port at the bottom, or at least very far, everything that I undertake to do. In this case I could not given and the image was certainly not very positive.

Thanks to everyone for their patience, support and received certificates of respect in recent months.

A hug from Madrid.

Piero
Well, it is sad if people like you are not participating to the FISTF future developments. I would like to have a board where people would work for the better, even if they have some personal differences. Thus, it is sad if the future board lacks representatives from Italy and Spain. As far as I understood, you had some good proposals for the future. I hope that you will continue participating to the discussion in this forum even if you lose your BoD status!

Well said.

I must once again say that people should remember that the subjects and opinions are the once who are against each other. It shouldn't get personal, because that is never good.

I also have to feel sorry for Piero, who really suffered unfairly because he was the only one of the BoD who communicated constantly also on subjects that aren't his area in the BoD, while his job was the promoting, in which he did nothing wrong. He was at least trying to explain the actions of the other BoD members and keep us others informed. Unlike the one responsible for that, who is now a candidate.

For me there are good things in both camps. And the best thing in the future would be that these people would ask and honour the others opinion and take it into consideration before decisions. Not everything from "the others" is bad. I also think that all the enthusiastic table football people should give their help to the common cause.

But I find it really amazing that adults who have the same primary objective: to have more players of the game, can't overcome differences of opinion and find a compromise or a way forward without fighting, spitting and quitting (this goes for both camps).

We don't need to leave the pro bono board (whoever is in it) alone if they are able to communicate, listen and take into account to opinions. We need to help the board with commissions or workgroups of heterogenic ideas and backgrounds, to get out all the possible ideas and find solutions that are the best for the global game with a lot of diversity.

We need better information and communication. More respect for all the countries, bigger and smaller, their opinions and what they need or can give. We need financial expertise. We need humbleness and people who are there for the game and not for the power. We need all the countries having a say, helping and asking for help. We need things to be done legally and according to statutes and rules to prevent unnecessary conflicts.

We need the communication and interest in even the smallest of Vincent Coppenolle. We need the passion and work of Silvio Catania. We need the promotional expertise of Piero Capponi. We need the sometimes unrealistic but important ideas of Stefano De Francesco. We need the passion and reason of Stefano Buzzi. We need the reason and calm of Janus Gersie. We need the innovative ideas of Kostas Kechris. We need the thoughts of Giorgos Drazinakis and Thossa Büsing. We need the calmness and equality of Heinz Eder. We need the critiscism of Mike Burns. We need all of those persons and qualities who I didn't remember to mention.

And finally we need Me to create polemic and say the bleeding obvious! albino

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  de francesco on Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:48 pm

Dear Vesa,
who knows me knows that I have ideas that look great but then work reaches. Remember that the limit to what we can do is just our mind. In Italy some people (thankfully few) thought that certain goals that i proposed were unattainable. Today we went beyond that and still go forward.

I'm also president of a football club and if I encounter a manager who claims to be "realistic" I fired him. I need dreamers who like to work hard and not "realistic" clumsy and inconclusive

Coppenolle is instead an employee thinks that management practices on his desk. A person like him no need to table football and indeed its presence is harmful.

For some who are applying from certain countries, i repeat, an international manager should have demonstrated its capacity building sports activity in their country. Who has not been able to do so should have the humility not to show up for an assignment.

Dear Vesa the only unrealistic thing is to work with people who do not know what to do and I do not waste my time to do impossible things.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:30 pm

pierocapponi wrote:President.

Silvio Catania,
Vincet Coppenolle,
Leonidas Koutrumanos,


Even when it is not offical, what is this for a crazy idea: The current FISTF Communication Director oppose to the current FISTF President???? Trouble´s brewing?!
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  von K. on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:38 am

de francesco wrote:Dear Vesa,
who knows me knows that I have ideas that look great but then work reaches. Remember that the limit to what we can do is just our mind. In Italy some people (thankfully few) thought that certain goals that i proposed were unattainable. Today we went beyond that and still go forward.

I'm also president of a football club and if I encounter a manager who claims to be "realistic" I fired him. I need dreamers who like to work hard and not "realistic" clumsy and inconclusive

Coppenolle is instead an employee thinks that management practices on his desk. A person like him no need to table football and indeed its presence is harmful.

For some who are applying from certain countries, i repeat, an international manager should have demonstrated its capacity building sports activity in their country. Who has not been able to do so should have the humility not to show up for an assignment.

Dear Vesa the only unrealistic thing is to work with people who do not know what to do and I do not waste my time to do impossible things.

Caro Francesco,

I was not explaining enough, but I also said that I left out a lot, and didn't find the best adjectives to all the people.

What I meant about unrealistic, was that some of your ideas are unrealistic at the moment. After some years the idea of CL and EL can be realistic.

But I also said your ideas were important. This was meant to soften the word "unrealistic". There is nothing wrong in dreaming, but it's just one of the many things that are needed.

But you also missed the basic idea of my post. I wanted to say that there are many, many, many people who can contribute and do things they are good at for table football. And table football needs all of them. And a simple goal is the same for everyone: get more players. And all the TF peoples' ideas are worth something. You can contribute with dreams and visions, others with something else.

Vincent Coppenolle has made some cardinal mistakes. But he is superb in keeping connection, informing and keeping the game alive in smaller countries with blogs and other active communication. Table football needs a person like Coppenolle. For example the present board has greater visions about the professional and sporting possibilities of the game, but made cardinal mistakes with for example communication. But table football also needs a person like Catania.

Everyone makes even big mistakes, but most have many good things to give. I don't really care who is in the BoD, as long as it takes into account the whole wide field of table football. And all those who are not on the BoD should be active in contributing, helping, discussing, criticizing, promoting etc.

I don't think table football needs people who are interested only in power. And I believe that those I mentioned by name are not in it for the power (what power is there in a game this small, it would be ridiculous). They love the game, like so many others, and have passion for it. But some of them should be able to deal with different views of people like adults.

Sometimes it's like in a children's daycare center. And I know as I've worked with kids for some years. The only difference is that children are much better in making up after fights and beginning to build a new play together.

So, could you people (also me) please leave the personal problems out of this, and concentrate on the important matters.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  von K. on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:45 am

Thossa wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:President.

Silvio Catania,
Vincet Coppenolle,
Leonidas Koutrumanos,


Even when it is not offical, what is this for a crazy idea: The current FISTF Communication Director oppose to the current FISTF President???? Trouble´s brewing?!

Why not? If he thinks he can do a better job as President, then why on earth not? Should we all be like sheep under the guidance of one of the two "chosen ones", like in a two-party political system?

I don't understand the candidature because of other arguments, though.

But if someone thinks he's good for the job, then of course he should candidate. I can think of a couple who are candidating only to be members, but would be good Presidents, too.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:19 am

Hi Vesa,

your intention is as always good. Probably you could be a good communication director. The reality shows us, some people are not able to deal together in a proper way, whether they are dreamers or realistics. It´s a pity for our small community, but it couldn´t be helped. But that´s life, anyway.

I was shooked and I still feel shooked today, when I realize, three out of seven members of Catanias crew are already gone after four months in their jobs. This leaves a bad smack, whatever which reason for their demission will be present.

And honestly speaking, I do not think Leonidas Koutromanos has enough reputation to be elected without an en bloc-voting, nor as president, neither as simple BoD-member.

I feel sorry for Catania, that most of his crew already will left him and certainly it is not his only fault, but he is the responsable person for a blunder upon blunder from the whole team. It started with the needless extraordinary congress, following some misplaced decisions by selffishly persons and was attented with a lack of communication and much more unhappy procedures.
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Admin on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:40 am

I'm quite sure at 200% that if Silvio and his mates had simply waited till september, they would all have been elected for 4 years and most people would accept that. It was just a huge mistake and a total lack of respect to provoke the Frankfurt meeting with all the consequences... Just my opinion though.
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:43 am

...to say nothing of the wasted money for congress and meetings...
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Admin on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:47 am

The wasted money is still another problem. If the guys had been elected in a normal way, nobody could have blamed them for that. You and me are not the kind of guys going to provoke an Extraordinary Congress... Wink
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:53 am

Hi Stefano,
every dreamer should also have a realistic manager beside, the middle of both is the perfect mix, I think.

Heinz

de francesco wrote:Dear Vesa,
who knows me knows that I have ideas that look great but then work reaches. Remember that the limit to what we can do is just our mind. In Italy some people (thankfully few) thought that certain goals that i proposed were unattainable. Today we went beyond that and still go forward.

I'm also president of a football club and if I encounter a manager who claims to be "realistic" I fired him. I need dreamers who like to work hard and not "realistic" clumsy and inconclusive

Coppenolle is instead an employee thinks that management practices on his desk. A person like him no need to table football and indeed its presence is harmful.

For some who are applying from certain countries, i repeat, an international manager should have demonstrated its capacity building sports activity in their country. Who has not been able to do so should have the humility not to show up for an assignment.

Dear Vesa the only unrealistic thing is to work with people who do not know what to do and I do not waste my time to do impossible things.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:45 am

Vesa, of course your view is right, but I think there was nobody of the previous board even thinking a second to candidate against Vincent, because otherwise there would be the question, why I worked in Vincent's team. I also don't understand that especially when the current president is candidate again and one of his team candidates against him. Loyality is an important aspect for a president in my opinion.
A double candidature also shows that he only seems to be interested being in the board, undependent in what position.

Heinz

von K. wrote:
Thossa wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:President.

Silvio Catania,
Vincet Coppenolle,
Leonidas Koutrumanos,


Even when it is not offical, what is this for a crazy idea: The current FISTF Communication Director oppose to the current FISTF President???? Trouble´s brewing?!

Why not? If he thinks he can do a better job as President, then why on earth not? Should we all be like sheep under the guidance of one of the two "chosen ones", like in a two-party political system?

I don't understand the candidature because of other arguments, though.

But if someone thinks he's good for the job, then of course he should candidate. I can think of a couple who are candidating only to be members, but would be good Presidents, too.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  de francesco on Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:47 am

Heinz Eder wrote:Hi Stefano,
every dreamer should also have a realistic manager beside, the middle of both is the perfect mix, I think.

Heinz


Ciao Heinz i'm agree with you. Many believe certain ideas as unrealistic because in their country table fottball is back twenty years.

With the translator read this discussion on the Italian forum.

http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=15089&st=0

You understand that the Italian players have realized that what we say and then do it. When we reach the 5000 Players in Italy, Germany and France will still be 60.

There will, however, three Germans and two French candidates for the international board.

Maybe they are right Italian players who tell us to make a new international federation.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:55 am

Stefano, you can't compare the itialian situation with the situation in germany or france.
It is not only a matter of sport organization to have more players. you have to consider the fact that both countries are suffering that they don't have any material available in shops.
if they would have material in shops and numbers wouldn't increase, i would understand your critic and there could be a mistake in the management, but without material it is impossible to reach that numbers, so you can't blame their management skills.
You also won't solve that problem with another international federation, I'm pretty sure about that. Good material available in shops, that's the key, then you will see the associations doing good promotion and those doing bad promotion.

Heinz

de francesco wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Hi Stefano,
every dreamer should also have a realistic manager beside, the middle of both is the perfect mix, I think.

Heinz


Ciao Heinz i'm agree with you. Many believe certain ideas as unrealistic because in their country table fottball is back twenty years.

With the translator read this discussion on the Italian forum.

http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=15089&st=0

You understand that the Italian players have realized that what we say and then do it. When we reach the 5000 Players in Italy, Germany and France will still be 60.

There will, however, three Germans and two French candidates for the international board.

Maybe they are right Italian players who tell us to make a new international federation.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:12 am

Heinz Eder wrote:Stefano, you can't compare the itialian situation with the situation in germany or france.
It is not only a matter of sport organization to have more players. you have to consider the fact that both countries are suffering that they don't have any material available in shops.
if they would have material in shops and numbers wouldn't increase, i would understand your critic and there could be a mistake in the management, but without material it is impossible to reach that numbers, so you can't blame their management skills.
You also won't solve that problem with another international federation, I'm pretty sure about that. Good material available in shops, that's the key, then you will see the associations doing good promotion and those doing bad promotion.

Heinz


Forget it, Heinz. He is absolutely refuses to see it... Rolling Eyes
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  de francesco on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:19 am

I hope I am wrong ...........

In Italy they say: time will tell

Just for information in Italy in the last fifteen years, perhaps about 1% of the shops had a box of subbuteo.

The results come from the ability to put ideas into practice.

Some people do not have either quality.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  drastis on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:26 am

I would like to post some comments, regarding the nominations for the BoD.

First of all, it really shocks me to see there is not even one candidate from Italy. The largest power in Table Football cannot find one person to nominate for the FISTF BoD. Maybe, the true intentions behind this decision can be found in the following comment of "the Fabulous" mr de Fransesco:
de francesco wrote: Maybe they are right Italian players who tell us to make a new international federation.

It is also shocking that three of the seven people who followed mr Catagnia in his "coup", decided that their tour with FISTF ends here. Why so much fuss then, gentlemen? I think they all fell victims of the lousiest communication management we ever experienced in FISTF, as very correctly said by Vesa:
Von K. wrote:I also have to feel sorry for Piero, who really suffered unfairly because he was the only one of the BoD who communicated constantly also on subjects that aren't his area in the BoD, while his job was the promoting, in which he did nothing wrong. He was at least trying to explain the actions of the other BoD members and keep us others informed. Unlike the one responsible for that, who is now a candidate.

One last comment about the person responsible for the communication "catastrophe" inflicted on the provisional board. He seems he can't stop anywhere. He probably has only one thing in his mind, as Heinz remarked:
Heinz Eder wrote: A double candidature also shows that he only seems to be interested being in the board, undependent in what position.

I would be interested in knowing which post each candidate seeks for. On my part, I am ready to withdraw my nomination if other candidates, better than me, seek the same positions I have in mind.


Last edited by drastis on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:18 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:29 am

At the moment you are right of course, because Italy has a huge number of players, but you can't know how many members other associations could have with simular chances, that's the point.

Heinz

de francesco wrote:I hope I am wrong ...........

In Italy they say: time will tell

Just for information in Italy in the last fifteen years, perhaps about 1% of the shops had a box of subbuteo.

The results come from the ability to put ideas into practice.

Some people do not have either quality.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  von K. on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:06 pm

A couple of things:

1. Italy is so big not because of the masterwork of last ten years. The base of everything is in the 70's and 80's with Edilio Parodi starting to create his own teams. In Italy people live for calcio (football isn't part of life, life is part of foofball is the cliché) and the Edilio Parodi range of teams grew bigger than the original Waddingtons' or Hasbro's range, and in a football crazy country the hobby grew bigger than anywhere else. All of this contributed to the fact that Italy had completely different base (both social through unbelievable interest in everything regarding football, and the equipment in stores, and thus the amount players) to all the other countries for this game.

Italy has done well of course also later, but it's completely different compared to countries starting from a lot smaller base. In Italy Subbuteo was a game for many many people. In many other countries it was a game for kids and "childish freaks". So promoting is a bit different.

If you think of a poor country with no money for playstation and such, it's clear that if you give them this game it will be a hit with kids. It wouldn't need much promotion. This just to underline the difference of different countries.

In football it would be a bit like Brasil (easily the largest amount of both official and unofficial players) thinking they are the best in promoting football as a hobby and sport. Or if Finland would say that Italy or France are poor in promoting ice hockey.

2. I'm really sad because Italy and Spain don't have candidates at all. Even Malta only has Catania for President. I think it's nonsense. What would become of politics and almost anything if people just quit and the whole group they represent don't have other candidates? I would welcome a late candidature from those countries if there would be one. Of course that would be questionable, but the candidatures from those countries are more important.

3. Even if Italy is easily the biggest country in TF, it shouldn't forget the other countries especially when taking decisions. This was on of the biggest problems with the current board. They lacked respect towards the small nations.

4. The lack of answers to important questions was also a problem. The other countries lost trust. And this was even increased by the lack of answers to questions about mr. Koutromanos being in the board.

5. Two associations doesn't do anything good, because we have trouble having everyone involved with even one. The problem is the lack of respect and communication. Italy has to be asked about things, but so must USA, Belgium, GB countries, Finland, Australia etc. And in this the important thing is the players, not if some small country is a member/full member of FISTF or not. They won't even become members/full members if they are not considered important (like the USA).

6. It's about time that everyone looks in the mirror, stops dreaming about seeing mr. Perfect and admits their mistakes, and that he can also be wrong or at least not the only one who's ideas are always the only solution.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  de francesco on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:33 pm

Dear Vesa,
I have great respect for small countries. One of the goals I wanted to reach was to help the development of table football in those countries. I already had a program for this.

I have no respect for leaders of large countries such as Germany and France. In both countries soccer is popular like in Italy. These two countries have the same members that I have in Perugia.

These leaders should bother to grow our sport in their country. Instead we have five candidates to the international board. 5 people incapable of creating a good Association at national level.

I'm just worried that these people will lose to our sport other years.

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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Thossa on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:45 pm

de francesco wrote:
I have no respect for leaders of large countries such as Germany and France. In both countries soccer is popular like in Italy. These two countries have the same members that I have in Perugia.

Boring Exclamation
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Re: FISTF Elections

Post  Guest on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:59 pm

Interesting conversation

but with some errors "historic."

The Board of Coppenole has fallen for two reasons:

1) I am a traitor.

2) Because Vincent did not want to hear any opinion on its board.

One of the reasons why I resigned is that really who commanded on the board were the Germans.

Vincet Board proposed to change (after the global disaster of the world cup), including Stefano De Francesco, in addition to Catania, Tagliaferri and Capponi, that were already present.

Vincent decided to go out of loyalty (which I feel honored), his working group.

After he refused, on several occasions, a formal meeting by saying that "if only 5 people will, I will not." This rejection has led, necessarily an extraordinary congress.

Do not forget the history please.

A final consideration for our Finnish friends, here in Finland if they think the leader of the federation of the IIHF was an Italian? Or a Spanish?

Piero "the traitor" Capponi.

(second version...jajaja)


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