Some questions for Piero

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Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Tue May 25, 2010 6:45 pm

Piero, I am glad to see that at least on member of the BoD (you) shows interest in the discussions taking place here. Also, I can tell by your writings that you care a lot about bringing new people into the sport in all countries. So, I have some questions for you:

Do you think that a "president" of an association should insist in keeping his post after a Court decision has been issued almost one year ago, which says that the elections that brought him to power were TOTALLY INVALID? Do you think it is good for the development of the game in a country to have legal disputes and everlasting quarrels over an invalid election? Also, do you think it is good for FISTF BoD and the game globally, to allow that person to vote as the only representative of his country before the matter is finally solved in second grade courts and even more to accept him as a member of FISTF BoD? I am not trying to defame anyone, I am only talking about facts known to everyone, the members of FISTF BoD included.

I am waiting for an honest answer and not a diplomatic "yes but no" reply. Thanks.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Tue May 25, 2010 7:49 pm

I believe that this situation is not positive. I believe that, without knowing the dettalles, is not good for the credibility of Greece.

Also I think the details would be important: non is like an elecion not valid for a time a fraud problem (is an example porquè really do not know the details).

I understand also that the situation in Greece is complicated for several years, and that probably lack the real will to resolve the differences.

As last considerations I believe also that in a small dispute like ours are more important people than the istituciones or chairs.

Piero

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu May 27, 2010 12:58 am

pierocapponi wrote:I believe that this situation is not positive. I believe that, without knowing the dettalles, is not good for the credibility of Greece.

Also I think the details would be important: non is like an elecion not valid for a time a fraud problem (is an example porquè really do not know the details).

I understand also that the situation in Greece is complicated for several years, and that probably lack the real will to resolve the differences.

As last considerations I believe also that in a small dispute like ours are more important people than the istituciones or chairs.

Piero

Until today none of the board asked me about some neutral facts in this case. I was so deeply involved in this case. I now the whole story.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Fri May 28, 2010 12:39 am

pierocapponi wrote:I believe that this situation is not positive. I believe that, without knowing the dettalles, is not good for the credibility of Greece.

Also I think the details would be important: non is like an elecion not valid for a time a fraud problem (is an example porquè really do not know the details).

I understand also that the situation in Greece is complicated for several years, and that probably lack the real will to resolve the differences.

As last considerations I believe also that in a small dispute like ours are more important people than the istituciones or chairs.

Piero

Well, Piero I only asked one thing from you: to give me an honest answer.

I am obliged to believe you when you are saying that you do not know the details, although it is very hard for me to believe that you have never heard the story. So, to make it easier for you to have a clear picture of the matter, let me give you the details.

First, I have to apologise for telling the same sad and boring story for the 50th time, but I just want to make sure I am not going to get the same answer again "we don't know the facts". Well the facts are that in June 2008, the first election for the BoD of the newly-founded greek association was restorted after the decision of the "provisionary" board of the Association (reminds you anything?) to not allow half of the Association founding members to vote!! Also, the provisionary board allowed only one candidate to go for president, stating that all other candidatures were not accepted because they had not been announced officially!! A tiny detail worth mentioning is that the only accepted candidate was also member of the provisionary board which took the above mentioned decisions. As you can easily understand, the only candidate was elected (!!!) with only 8 votes of the people who took part in this comedy, out of 28 founding members of the association. Following this, the "president" of the "elected" BoD started threatening the players who wrote against this outreageous series of incidents, that he would sue anybody who would dare to speak against him. He realised his threats in October 2008, when he sued me, asking 200,000 Euros as compensation for a supposed moral damage!! When FISTF became involved, by naming Janus Gersie as the official mediator on FISTF part, a vulgar attack started and incredible insults were thrown against Janus, who very soon found out proof that the elections were not proper and tried to solve the matter by founding a new association. The result of the personal attacks was that Janus was forced to resign and the matter was left unsolved until July 2009 when the Greek courts decided in first degree that the election was invalid. During the process it was proven that only two of the five members of the provisionary board had actually attended any board meetings, while the other three members had never been invited at the meetings and never had accepted any decisions about the elections. Now, almost one year after the decision of the court, the "president" insists in keeping his place against common will, by having appealed to a second degree court, which is going to happen in autumn 2010!!

So, Piero (or any other member of the current FISTF BoD), now that you know the facts, can you please give a straight answer to the question: "Is it good for FISTF reputation and for the development of the game worldwide to accept and even reward such behaviours by including the "president" of the greek Association in a FISTF BoD that was elected en bloc, against FISTF statuses??"

If anyone has any different opinion on the facts I mentioned, please feel free to give us your own view.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  von K. on Fri May 28, 2010 12:06 pm

In any respectable area of life, this Board would be suspended until the final verdict and a provisional system would be created maybe with even the help of a court or similar instance. Or at least it should be.

If the next FISTF election is decided by one vote, it casts a doubt over the election. If someone is illegally getting the position to vote, it means the election is invalid if anyone wants to appeal. Is this what we need in Table Football?

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Fri May 28, 2010 12:19 pm

Earth calling Piero. Piero do you get me? Over.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Fri May 28, 2010 12:23 pm

(I was saying I was going to answer today)


Last edited by pierocapponi on Fri May 28, 2010 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Fri May 28, 2010 12:25 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Sorry, today i contest you.

In English please?

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Fri May 28, 2010 1:21 pm

In 2007, when I started playing in Spain, had two associations.

They were fought since 1993.

It was very difficult to know who was right or not. The only thing certain was that a small movement and was subsequently divided.

Along with other people able to organize a fusion between the two associations.

That happened two years ago. Today in Spain we all work in the same direction.

You explained the situation from your point of view (I imagine that if asked the same to the other party will tell me otherwise and that the "bad" are you or others).

He knew, without knowing the detail offered to mediate Gersie (sent by the FISTF) and was not well received.

I also know that Leonidas presiding Koutrumanos association is recognized by the FISTF. And if re-vote because a judge orders it, the FISTF will recognize the new president. Whoever.

I told you eat is not good this situation nor the reputation of the International Federation or the Greek table football. (Although in general we do not have, nobody in soccer table, a great reputation to defend, because we do not know anyone ..)

I think the FISTF tried to resolve this situation and that Greece's response was poor. Now I think you would have to be you in solving the problem.

I disagree with your comment: FISTF elections have been legal because the countries and the candidates agreed on it.

As a final personal note, I tell you that voting block is much better than one for one for two reasons:

- A president must be able to choose their partners.

- May be that we choose 5 people who know a lot of sports or finance. But none of marketing or communication. So what would we do

Piero

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  von K. on Fri May 28, 2010 1:39 pm

pierocapponi wrote:
As a final personal note, I tell you that voting block is much better than one for one for two reasons:

- A president must be able to choose their partners.

- May be that we choose 5 people who know a lot of sports or finance. But none of marketing or communication. So what would we do

A small comment on this:

- If a president chooses his partners the voting is only for the president. And if it is so, then the president (and thus the board) can become dictatorial. This doesn't work anywhere as we can also see with FIFA and all the problems with people critical of Blatter ousted and even alleged criminals (like Jack Warner) in the inside group untouched. A respected Board has to be selected person by person, and then the Board has to find ways to work. If for someone it's impossible, then change. But different views on some things are not a reason.

- It would be better if all the candidates could apply for several (maybe three) positions, and then the vote would be separate for each position. This way the best people could be voted for the best positions, and there wouldn't be three financial specialists in the Board. Also I think it's stupid that no one but Coppenolle and Catania will probably candidate for president, because it's too risky if they are also interested in becoming "only" a Board member.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri May 28, 2010 2:09 pm

Do you vote every minister of the gouvernment or do you only elect the candidate for the prime minister in your country?
I think if we keep the actual voting system, FISTF will spend more time on elections than anything else when there are more than 1 candidate for each post. It is better to know the team before the elections then a program can be set up for that team and members should vote about the better program.
In the actual situation you make a program, then you get another director in your team with another program and you have to change things you promised before the elections. It is the same like in politic then, when people complain that xy promised something before the elections but then everything is different, but it is clear if you need a partner, that you can't promise everything.

Heinz

von K. wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:
As a final personal note, I tell you that voting block is much better than one for one for two reasons:

- A president must be able to choose their partners.

- May be that we choose 5 people who know a lot of sports or finance. But none of marketing or communication. So what would we do

A small comment on this:

- If a president chooses his partners the voting is only for the president. And if it is so, then the president (and thus the board) can become dictatorial. This doesn't work anywhere as we can also see with FIFA and all the problems with people critical of Blatter ousted and even alleged criminals (like Jack Warner) in the inside group untouched. A respected Board has to be selected person by person, and then the Board has to find ways to work. If for someone it's impossible, then change. But different views on some things are not a reason.

- It would be better if all the candidates could apply for several (maybe three) positions, and then the vote would be separate for each position. This way the best people could be voted for the best positions, and there wouldn't be three financial specialists in the Board. Also I think it's stupid that no one but Coppenolle and Catania will probably candidate for president, because it's too risky if they are also interested in becoming "only" a Board member.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Fri May 28, 2010 2:23 pm

I agree 200% with Heinz. So can not and will not be able govern.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  von K. on Fri May 28, 2010 3:39 pm

In politics you have a political opposition in the parliament to keep the government in line. Otherwise the government can do almost anything. FISTF doesn't have similar opposition. And neither does FIFA. And everyone who follows FIFA closely knows that fair play and democratic decision making is forgotten a long time ago. And therefore FIFA also makes many very bad decisions.

A homogenic government is never good, because it doesn't even take into consideration many aspects. And if no one is critical inside the power system then things we have witnessed by the former and present Board are possible. It will be a bunch of "yes men" who want to keep the peace within the Board at all costs. And that doesn't lead to decisions that are truly tested against critiscism.

Of course you can not form a Board where some people hate each other. But this is the same as in politics. The biggest party (president in our case) must decide with the other parties (our candidates) that got the most votes (thus have been chosen democratically) if they are able to work together.

If someone is unable to work with that President (or other members of the Board), then he'll have to step aside and the next possible candidate will take his place.

Otherwise it's the same as a block vote and the whole Board member voting is irrelevant as the President is omnipotent in choosing whoever he wants to.

And if this is the case, I want to know beforehand who is in which camp to know which President to vote. And also if it's useless for someone to even candidate because he is in neither Presidents list. And what do we vote if we like one Presidential candidate but not some in his team and vice versa?

I'm really surprised about some arguments here. I'm not sure that either the statutes are supporting a vote where the only relevant thing is the Presidential election and then the others don't matter and thus it's a block vote.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Fri May 28, 2010 4:27 pm

pierocapponi wrote:You explained the situation from your point of view (I imagine that if asked the same to the other party will tell me otherwise and that the "bad" are you or others).
Piero
Naturally, when there is a conflict between people you will hear many different versions of the story. But, I only explained facts. This is not "my" view, it is FACTS. Has anybody told you that there is no court decision? Has anybody told you that more players were allowed to vote? Has anybody told you that there was a second candidate for president? So, instead of imagining why don't you ask them? If you want to shape an opinion of your own, what you have to do after asking everyone involved, is to put your mind to work and judge who tells the truth and who lies. This is how people judge. It is really naive to say that you can't have an opinion of your own because everybody has a different story to tell you...

pierocapponi wrote:I also know that Leonidas presiding Koutrumanos association is recognized by the FISTF.
So what? The greek association is the players' association, it's NOT the ownership of the president.

pierocapponi wrote:And if re-vote because a judge orders it, the FISTF will recognize the new president. Whoever.
Sorry, Piero, but this is absurd. If in your business you knew a person who has been involved in tampering with papers in his company, would you do business with him? NO. You would search for someone you can trust.

pierocapponi wrote:I think the FISTF tried to resolve this situation and that Greece's response was poor. Now I think you would have to be you in solving the problem.
Again you are wrong. More than 50 players supported Janus move, so if you don't know facts, you'd better not say anything. The problem was not solved, because FISTF BoD members did not have the courage to take the right decision.

pierocapponi wrote:I disagree with your comment: FISTF elections have been legal because the countries and the candidates agreed on it.
I hope you are not a lawyer or a judge. Because legal is only what is according to law, what is against the law is illegal no matter how many people agree on it.

Thanks for answering my questions. I was not at all satisfied by your answers, in fact your answers convinced me that all the players who care about the future of our sport should be mobilized against the election in new FISTF BoD of people who have concepts similar to yours. Thanks, anyway.


Last edited by drastis on Fri May 28, 2010 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri May 28, 2010 4:40 pm

Please tell me what an opposition can do against a gouvernment with 60% in politic?
In the actual statutes of FISTF it doesn't make sense to vote individually on posts, because if the result is going to be a team where people can't work together 3 things can happen.

1. The director stops to work on the board and resigns. Then the president can nominate somebody ad interim till the next elections. For sure it won't be somebody the president knows that he can't work on his program.
2. The president stops his work and resigns, then new elections are needed, maybe with another president but the same problem.
3. Both stop their work or even work against each other and don't resign, that's the worst case.

It is wrong that FISTF doesn't have an opposition, the opposition of FISTF could be very strong, but it needs some work and cooperation between the associations. If the FISTF Board is not interested to create such a "Commission" the national associations could do that on their own. We saw it in november what power associations can have. The FISTF Board has to find an agreement not to take the risk of new elections, so they need more cooperation with the majortiy of members in FISTF. At the moment that doesn't happen, the members were for years those who only said yes or said nothing. If the members are organized, then they can have a big influence on decisions, that's how FISTF should work.
The way of election never can say something about how democratically FISTF is, only the way of work between FISTF Board and members gives you a view on it how democratically FISTF really is.
Without feedback and won elections it is clear that any board thinks they can do whatever they want and even change their program, but if the members have a view on it, I'm pretty sure the FISTF Board will take more care. Of course it needs more activity from the associations and some people maybe can't only sit then in their country and complain about the bad FISTF Board, they need to be more active then and also need to spend more time for table soccer in and out of their country.
The members have to take care that the board is doing what they promised, if not, they have to stay together and tell the board officially that they changed direction. If the board wants to change direction they need the majority of members, before changing direction. At the moment they change direction without asking, because nobody really cares.

FISTF has the wrong statutes. As long as there was only 1 candidate it was easy, but now with more and more candidates for 1 post, we can see that our statutes are not very good.

Heinz

von K. wrote:In politics you have a political opposition in the parliament to keep the government in line. Otherwise the government can do almost anything. FISTF doesn't have similar opposition. And neither does FIFA. And everyone who follows FIFA closely knows that fair play and democratic decision making is forgotten a long time ago. And therefore FIFA also makes many very bad decisions.

A homogenic government is never good, because it doesn't even take into consideration many aspects. And if no one is critical inside the power system then things we have witnessed by the former and present Board are possible. It will be a bunch of "yes men" who want to keep the peace within the Board at all costs. And that doesn't lead to decisions that are truly tested against critiscism.

Of course you can not form a Board where some people hate each other. But this is the same as in politics. The biggest party (president in our case) must decide with the other parties (our candidates) that got the most votes (thus have been chosen democratically) if they are able to work together.

If someone is unable to work with that President (or other members of the Board), then he'll have to step aside and the next possible candidate will take his place.

Otherwise it's the same as a block vote and the whole Board member voting is irrelevant as the President is omnipotent in choosing whoever he wants to.

And if this is the case, I want to know beforehand who is in which camp to know which President to vote. And also if it's useless for someone to even candidate because he is in neither Presidents list. And what do we vote if we like one Presidential candidate but not some in his team and vice versa?

I'm really surprised about some arguments here. I'm not sure that either the statutes are supporting a vote where the only relevant thing is the Presidential election and then the others don't matter and thus it's a block vote.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Fri May 28, 2010 6:17 pm

Drastis sorry but you are very unfair to me. You have asked my opinion, I have given it, I am not who to solve your problems, nor is work of the interim board.

You have not stopped or ask me who I am and do I table football for say, porquè I tended the boldness does not give you the reason, it is better to not vote for the new?

But if you just say that the previous Board not tube valentia solve the problem?

The Fistf is a small organization that has as objective (or would have to be) do football table, and I think much beyond their means mediate a subject that is obviously personal, type in Greece.

two things more:

-I am not to submit to the new board, just for single what time is wasted in FISTF to solve problems like this instead of investing energy and efforts to grow the game (which by the way we are doing well in Spain). Many policy, much polemic, many poor relations and little promotion.

-My wife is a lawyer, and the good, and has taught me that innocence presuncion is essential, and abide by the decisions of the judges.

I feel that my answers you do not like. But I was honest and you've expressed my opinion. Remember that I am simply the marketing director and that the argument Greece not been touched in any meeting of the FISTF (in Rotterdam or in Frankfurth).

A greeting.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Fri May 28, 2010 11:28 pm

I am sorry too, Piero, but you are missing the point. I did not ask you or any other FISTF BoD member to "solve" the problem or punish anyone. What I asked from the previous board and what I am asking from you now is to not help the people who create and maintain the problem!!

First you say you don't know the facts and when the facts are given to you, you say "it is not my business, I am just a marketing director". Ok, it is not your business to help table football in countries with problems. Nor any other BoD member's business. Then, can you please tell me whose business is it?

You say your wife who is a lawyer has taught you that innocence presumtion is essential. Let me tell you that my father used to be an army officer and what he has taught me is that pride and honour are the highest virtues. Co-operating with people who have created and maintain serious problems in their countries is not a pride for FISTF BoD. And it does not honour any of the members of the board.

Greetings

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Sat May 29, 2010 12:05 am

Does but you have forgotten to ask me what not me again I have not?

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Janus_Gersie on Sat May 29, 2010 12:19 pm

pierocapponi wrote:I also know that Leonidas presiding Koutrumanos association is recognized by the FISTF.

Sorry, Piero, that is just not true !
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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Sat May 29, 2010 7:27 pm

? sorry?

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Sun May 30, 2010 2:23 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Does but you have forgotten to ask me what not me again I have not?
Sorry Piero I can't get the meaning, would you please rephrase it?

pierocapponi wrote:? sorry?

Janus is right. Regarding Greece, the last official decision of FISTF BoD was that PATFAP is no longer recognised by FISTF and that the "Hellenic Union" is recognised instead. After strong reactions by the "president" of PATFAP, FISTF BoD felt they were in a very difficult position and after Janus' resignation they silently and unofficially accepted him as their partner. However, there never was any official decision coming from FISTF which would settle the matter. I think Vincent can confirm this.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Guest on Sun May 30, 2010 6:12 pm

I was saying that I am answering a question I've done you. Do not give me that I have responsibility.

I do not understand as possible, then, that Greece is playing the world championships if his Federation is not recognized.

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  drastis on Mon May 31, 2010 1:00 am

pierocapponi wrote:I do not understand as possible, then, that Greece is playing the world championships if his Federation is not recognized.

Some times miracles happen... Wink

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon May 31, 2010 10:24 am

pierocapponi wrote:I do not understand as possible, then, that Greece is playing the world championships if his Federation is not recognized.

I asked this question to Vincent during the last WC in Amsterdam. Guess what he answered !

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Re: Some questions for Piero

Post  Admin on Mon May 31, 2010 2:11 pm

To be honest, we had the choice at the time between totally excluding Greece from FISTF till they find a solution together OR just finding a solution so that people who had nothing to do with the "political problems" (which in reality means the big majority of players) cpould continue to play, continue to get WR points in Greece and get a chance to qualify for the WC. I think Option 2 was fait for the players but in reality it was a wrong decision (and I'm responsible for this) because it gave the illusion to people like Koutromanos that they were controlling the situation, which was absolutely a disaster (and at the time I did not realize the importance of it).
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