Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Sun May 30, 2010 1:27 pm

No doubt. I have respect for the intention of the "rule". And the 8-1 in 2008 was of cause in a U15-final, not in the group stage. And 6-0 or 8-1 is not the end of a carreer...

But I would more appriciate it, if it would be an unwritten law, than a ominouse "rule". Actually the level should be professionism and as far as I know in no other similar form of sport (with scoring goals) exist such kind of manipulation.

Another question: Isn´t it inconsitent to addapt the "rule" to the team-tournament, too?
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  drastis on Sun May 30, 2010 3:05 pm

I think manipulation of any kind is not a honest way to handle things. Moreover, we all recognise that the problem is not how many goals a seasoned player would accept, our care should be how to protect the weakest from being hammered intentionally.

As I wrote before (and Von K. misunderstood my writing) the rule of 5-0 was invented not to protect the weak, but to protect the good players from set-up matches. By saying this, I do not mean there was a good point in introducing the rule, I simply mean that the intention of the people who invented and applied this rule was not to protect the weak, as they claim. Their true intention was to protect themselves (the good players) from set-ups. So, they cannot use hypocritic and false arguments to defend a stupid rule.

Now, there are many other ways to protect the weak. You can introduce categories A and B in tournaments, as Kechris has proposed. You can simply ignore the results of the strong players of the group against the weakest, to discourage hammering. Or you can simply explain to the beaten that this was a natural thing to happen.

I did this when my son lost 10-0 against Diego Tagliaferri in Vienna 2008. And my son understood, although he was only 11 years old. And he did not quit table football because of that heavy defeat. My son quit table football because he was not any longer welcome in tournaments after the new "BoD" won the "elections" in Greece. So, if FISTF BoD members want to do something to attract and keep new players in the game , they should better take care to create a welcome and friendly environment instead of manipulating the scores.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Sun May 30, 2010 4:52 pm

Normally there is no need to manipulated results, if we would have a reglementation, saying if two players in a group of three scores more than a difference with five goals in their results with the third player, they have to make s shoot out, if they have play draw together. Latest after a 7:0, or an 8:0 they automatically "shift down a gear"....
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Guest on Sun May 30, 2010 6:21 pm

The rule applies only to the group stage. And does not apply to teams. (Taken for granted that whoever has to play with a team is at a level slightly higher than someone who presents himself, and maybe for the first time, a an official torunament)

No attempt, you have the spirit of the rule. Sorry, but you keep thinking it's a sports rule. RULE IS A, MARKETING, LOVE, RESPECT.

I really do not understand? No wonder then that playing table football seems more a war than a party ....

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  von K. on Sun May 30, 2010 9:01 pm

I think it's natural that even teams can be newcomers. Especially in the smaller countries. In Finland we have 4 teams at the moment and 1 of them is all novice team. And the 5th team is soon created, that too with only novices, mostly children.

drastis wrote:
As I wrote before (and Von K. misunderstood my writing) the rule of 5-0 was invented not to protect the weak, but to protect the good players from set-up matches. By saying this, I do not mean there was a good point in introducing the rule, I simply mean that the intention of the people who invented and applied this rule was not to protect the weak, as they claim. Their true intention was to protect themselves (the good players) from set-ups. So, they cannot use hypocritic and false arguments to defend a stupid rule.

It's possible that I misunderstood. Or we just see the rule and the arguments from different views.

I don't know the origin of this rule. I only (try to) take into account the arguments about the rule, not the intentions of the rule makers, or who made the rule.

For me it is clearly a two-way-street. If the rule is there it helps the beginners against unnecessary hammering and at the same time prevents set-ups.

drastis wrote:Now, there are many other ways to protect the weak. You can introduce categories A and B in tournaments, as Kechris has proposed.

This is of course the best way to do things when there are enough players. But in Finland for example we can't do that in the GP/IO. In the future maybe we can.

The specific nature of different countries and tournaments is one reason for suggesting that the organizers should be able to decide if this is used, and maybe even what is the max result in the tournament.

drastis wrote:You can simply ignore the results of the strong players of the group against the weakest, to discourage hammering.

Thossa wrote:Normally there is no need to manipulated results, if we would have a reglementation, saying if two players in a group of three scores more than a difference with five goals in their results with the third player, they have to make s shoot out, if they have play draw together. Latest after a 7:0, or an 8:0 they automatically "shift down a gear"....

These are practically the same thing. And I think this would be as good as the current system regarding beginners. "Shiting down a gear" is very well put considering these games.

drastis wrote:I did this when my son lost 10-0 against Diego Tagliaferri in Vienna 2008. And my son understood, although he was only 11 years old.

Of course this is always needed. But people are so different that for some players it doesn't work. Especially when we think of adult or teenage beginners, it can be impossible.

drastis wrote:to create a welcome and friendly environment instead of manipulating the scores.

I know you mean the problems in Greece, but this sentence is also about this rule. It's not friendly and welcome environment when top players are hammering novices. I think many times hammering novices is being very unfriendly and not caring about the newcomers enthusiasm. At least better players shouldn't be forced to humiliate if they don't like it.

It's also good to remember that our game is very small and can't work like big professional sports with even millions of players.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Sun May 30, 2010 9:45 pm

Take care about me men!!

The FISTF Sport Director Mr Stefano De Francesco has just called me by phone to tell me that his ass is broken with me and he wants to play boxe with my face!!!

May be he has no "words-words-words" to explain us many things and like children he wants to make war and not love!!!

What a guy!!!
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Sun May 30, 2010 10:58 pm

What an exorbitant reaction. What was reason for?
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Mon May 31, 2010 12:14 am

I don't know!!
But he's very angry with me because he told me that my handicap is not only to my leg (I have lost my left leg in a great accident when I was young), but also to my brain...

Some weeks ago, after he has won the serie A with his club, he has open a ironic post on the italian forum titled something like "people we had like to see in Serie A" and he wrote "wanted" about my player Stefano Scagni because he was not in Rome.

So, Stefano Scagni spent last year with his mother felt ill with a cancer till she died.

Very elegant, isn't it?

When Mr de Francesco doesn't know what to say, he shoots on your parents and handicaps......
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  drastis on Mon May 31, 2010 1:12 am

Stefano Buzzi wrote:But he's very angry with me because he told me that my handicap is not only to my leg (I have lost my left leg in a great accident when I was young), but also to my brain...

This is quite shocking!!

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  de francesco on Mon May 31, 2010 8:48 am

Buzzi quello che stai facendo è veramente orribile. Dovresti davvero vergognarti. Mi hai provocato continuamente da due anni a questa parte sul forum italiano e ora inizi anche qui perchè in Italia tutti o quasi hanno capito a che gioco stai giocando. Giochi con le parole e le modifichi a tuo piacimento per ottenere il risultato che ti sei prefisso.

Non mi interessa darti ulteriori spunti per fare polemica. Invito solo chi interessato a andarsi a vedere la discussione che Buzzi ha citato sul forum italiano:

http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=14849

Leggetelo per favore e capirete che è un post scherzoso sulle previsioni sbagliate sui trasferimenti dei giocatori. Non c'è nulla di offensivo. Stefano Scagni è un mio amico come tutti i ragazzi che giocano nello Stella Artois.

So che non la smetterai fino a quando anche qui tutti avranno capito chi sei.

Mi dispiace che in Italia nessuno ti dia ascolto, forse è questo che ti da fastidio. Sarei felice che tu potessi presentarti alle elezioni ed essere eletto per vederti al lavoro finalmente dopo tanti anni dedicati esclusivamente alla critica del lavoro altrui. Mi spiace che a Dolo nel 1997 sei stato fatto fuori dal board italiano e hai incolpato me di questo Sono comunque entusiasta di quella decisione. Dopo il tuo allontanamento è iniziato lo sviluppo e la crescita del movimento italiano.

Chiedo scusa per avere scritto in italiano ma l'argomento è particolarmente difficile e non voglio che il mio pessimo inglese dia spunti per ulteriori polemiche ad una persona che non cerca altro.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Mon May 31, 2010 9:24 am

Please don´t forget, this is not the italian forum. If you want to say something, don´t do it in your own language. A lot of people would appreciate it. Thanks.


de francesco wrote:Buzzi quello che stai facendo è veramente orribile. Dovresti davvero vergognarti. Mi hai provocato continuamente da due anni a questa parte sul forum italiano e ora inizi anche qui perchè in Italia tutti o quasi hanno capito a che gioco stai giocando. Giochi con le parole e le modifichi a tuo piacimento per ottenere il risultato che ti sei prefisso.

Non mi interessa darti ulteriori spunti per fare polemica. Invito solo chi interessato a andarsi a vedere la discussione che Buzzi ha citato sul forum italiano:

http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=14849

Leggetelo per favore e capirete che è un post scherzoso sulle previsioni sbagliate sui trasferimenti dei giocatori. Non c'è nulla di offensivo. Stefano Scagni è un mio amico come tutti i ragazzi che giocano nello Stella Artois.

So che non la smetterai fino a quando anche qui tutti avranno capito chi sei.

Mi dispiace che in Italia nessuno ti dia ascolto, forse è questo che ti da fastidio. Sarei felice che tu potessi presentarti alle elezioni ed essere eletto per vederti al lavoro finalmente dopo tanti anni dedicati esclusivamente alla critica del lavoro altrui. Mi spiace che a Dolo nel 1997 sei stato fatto fuori dal board italiano e hai incolpato me di questo Sono comunque entusiasta di quella decisione. Dopo il tuo allontanamento è iniziato lo sviluppo e la crescita del movimento italiano.

Chiedo scusa per avere scritto in italiano ma l'argomento è particolarmente difficile e non voglio che il mio pessimo inglese dia spunti per ulteriori polemiche ad una persona che non cerca altro.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Mon May 31, 2010 9:39 am

Mr De Francesco: it was enought to say :" Sorry, I didn't know".

But you don't understand.

About 1997, I didn't present myself to the election of the new board because in two years I've lost my sister and my father for ather two cancers and I was alone in my family business (the Buzzi's 1890 we used to pay doctors...)

You have lost another chance to keep yourself quiet.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  von K. on Mon May 31, 2010 10:50 am

Thossa wrote:Please don´t forget, this is not the italian forum. If you want to say something, don´t do it in your own language. A lot of people would appreciate it. Thanks.

de francesco wrote:
Chiedo scusa per avere scritto in italiano ma l'argomento è particolarmente difficile e non voglio che il mio pessimo inglese dia spunti per ulteriori polemiche ad una persona che non cerca altro.

Stefano says here that he's sorry to write in english, but it's a particularly difficult subject and he doesn't want his bad english to create even more controversy for Buzzi to react to.

So, I think in a case like this it's understandable and we can all use a translator, or you can ask if you don't understand something after that.

About the subject itself, the controversy between Buzzi and De Francesco, which seems to go back a long time, it's very difficult to say anything without inside knowledge.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Mon May 31, 2010 2:50 pm

@ Vesa,

es ist ganz schön doof, wenn Hans und Franz dauernd ein Übersetzungsprogramm benutzen müssen, um Mitteilungen in einer anderen Sprachen als Englisch zu verstehen. Hinzu kommt noch, dass die allgemeinen Übersetzungsprogramme nicht gerade der Renner sind. Gerade solche Übersetzungsprogramme kommen ganz schön nervig sein, weil man noch weniger versteht, als wenn die Leute in gebrochenem Englisch etwas schreiben würden. Die Übersetzungsprogramme führen mit Sicherheit nicht zu dem, was man eigentlich in seiner Landessprache sagen will.

Dat is lekker waar...

lol!
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Guest on Mon May 31, 2010 3:07 pm

Thoss is goed ... maar ik kan dit zeggen omdat mijn vertaler heeft het goed vertaald

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Mon May 31, 2010 4:49 pm

New Training Program for TSC Stella Artois

http://www.fitmax.it/store/arti_marziali/sacchi_da_boxe/index.htm
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  zinga on Mon May 31, 2010 5:23 pm

I think, within last couple of pages, the discussion about the topic lost 0-5. The score was manipulated by the rule. Sleep
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  zinga on Mon May 31, 2010 5:34 pm

von K. wrote:I think many times hammering novices is being very unfriendly and not caring about the newcomers enthusiasm. At least better players shouldn't be forced to humiliate if they don't like it.
This is why I am for the rule. It is not good for anyone that "good" players are forced to humiliate "not so good" players in the groups to decide who is the group first and who is second. If the other wins 14-0 and the other 13-0, it is most likely that the results are decided by the loser who lost interest in the 10-0 situation.

However, 5-0 is far too small difference, taking into consideration all the examples presented in this topic. 8-0 would be much better. As a matter of fact, I will propose that we will use/test the 8-0 rule in Finland next season.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon May 31, 2010 6:08 pm

You don't need to regulate the score to get that result.
The solution would be very easy, take the direct game between those players with the same number of points, then the good players don't need to "destroy" the weak players, because the goal difference isn't important anymore. If 3 players have the same number of points I don't think that there is a game where one player can "destroy" the other, then the goal difference should be the criteria. Even if 2nd and 3rd of the group have the same points and played a draw they should make a shoot out who is second. I only would take the goal difference in case all players have the same points.
That would also be better for the EC, in case there are teams with the same number of points, it would be better to take the direct game between those clubs, if they played a draw, the next criteria could be the goals scored in the direct game, if it is a draw too, the third cirteria should be all games, that would help that strong teams doesn't even "destroy" the weak games in the individual to get in a better position in case of equal points with another strong team.

Heinz

zinga wrote:
von K. wrote:I think many times hammering novices is being very unfriendly and not caring about the newcomers enthusiasm. At least better players shouldn't be forced to humiliate if they don't like it.
This is why I am for the rule. It is not good for anyone that "good" players are forced to humiliate "not so good" players in the groups to decide who is the group first and who is second. If the other wins 14-0 and the other 13-0, it is most likely that the results are decided by the loser who lost interest in the 10-0 situation.

However, 5-0 is far too small difference, taking into consideration all the examples presented in this topic. 8-0 would be much better. As a matter of fact, I will propose that we will use/test the 8-0 rule in Finland next season.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Mon May 31, 2010 6:42 pm

Ok, coming back on topic.
image a Group with 3 players: two great players and one at the first tournament.

Problems:
1) Goal difference
2) different experiences
3) what is doing a guy at the first tournament in a group with two players like De Logne and Flores? (for example)

So, like in Tennis and Table Tennis, the score (and not only the Sport) is different and we have to think in a different way.
It's not a problem with players coming from the same category (assigned with ranking): but the problem rest if we allow the partecipation at the same group of players coming from too different position in the ranking.

If they shoot just to look a better goal difference, that's no good for our sport, because may be we lose the new player.

I repeat: the rule was not made thinking to Soccer or Table Soccer, but only to keep warm new players that come thinking to Soccer, but become play Table Soccer!!!
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  zinga on Mon May 31, 2010 7:05 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:The solution would be very easy, take the direct game between those players with the same number of points, then the good players don't need to "destroy" the weak players, because the goal difference isn't important anymore.
Yes, but no. There is a clear advantage of using the goal difference. For example if A and B draws, and A beats C 5-0 and B beats C 3-0, in my opinion A should be the group winner. I don't want to see shots too often. What is the point of player C in the the previous example if there is no point on her games?
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  wrkl on Mon May 31, 2010 7:11 pm

Personally I was very happy when this rule was introduced.

Allow me to put a different perspective on this topic.

I never practice I do not want to get any better.

I travel to events for 3 main reasons

1} I love the game
2} I like to support the organisers efforts
3} I love most of the people I talk to and play against.

However I have lost count of how many times I have been in a group with 2 people much much better than me ( with whom I should not be in the same competition). The first game has drawn and then it is just a battle to see who can beat me by the most goals.

This season has been a joy to play knowing that humiliation is no longer an option.

Just look through the old results to see big (15+) scores then try to see if the loser in those games has ever played again.

This rule has it's faults but until the system is changed (based on ability) it will prevent me from stopping playing.

John Lauder

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  maxischn on Mon May 31, 2010 7:13 pm

i think heinz tried it that way

A and B are the strongest, C is the weak one
player A - player B 2-2
player A - player C 1-0
player B - player C 3-0


player A and B each got 6 points, and their direct game ended 2-2 -> so they have to go for shootout, the goaldifference in that case won't count, only their direct game for the ranking, and so the "weak player" is protected, as only a win counts, but not the amount of goals


*edit*
drastis got it right after i read it the 2nd time Very Happy i don't think that shoots will happen that often, and if they are done within 5 minutes, sudden death kills way more time in the 1/4 finals

and shootouts can be done while another round (U19/Vets) are played, so it won't cost any extratime normally, and watching a shootout can be fun, especially for bystanders and visitors
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:52 pm

... well, sometimes you have a good draw and sometimes you have a bad draw...
So if you are a quite good player, having a player of your level and a far weaker player in the group AND you are the first to play the 'weak' player, you just have to accept that you have had bad luck with the draw!!
Being realistic you have absolutely no chance to win this group by goal difference, because the other good player knows how much he has to score against an already destroyed opponent... Win your game with - let's say - two or three goals difference and your job is done. Weak player is 'protected', and the other 'good' player needs just one more goal to win the group. If he still scores ten or more, then he should allow to be asked why this had been necessary...
It's as simple as that.

What else can we do to avoid these situations?
Heinz stated the point: Direct match decides about your place. If more than two players have the same amount of points then the goal difference only of the matches of the players involved will count.

Additional help would be gained by:
- bigger groups (groups of three always produce this unwanted situation)
- no fixed schedule after the group stage, so you can't 'avoid' certain players by producing high scores or even losses...
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:03 pm

Not only the Berlin GP shows every year, it is no problem to play GP´s with groups of 4. So why don´t we regulate to play all tournaments from FISTF Futures up to FISTF Grand Prix´ with groups of four?

I recognize it is nearly impossible to play Major tournaments with groups of four, but a little risk for weaker player should be allowed.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

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