Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

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Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  zinga on Fri May 21, 2010 9:34 am

From the current FISTF Handbook:
In individual competitions, the maximum score in the group stage can only be 5-0. For instance:
- if a game ends on 9-2, it will be reported as 5-0 in the results file.
- if a game ends on 7-2, it will be reported as 5-0 in the results file.


From the results of recent FISTF competitions:
GP Edinburgh: 8-0, 13-0, 7-0, ...
IO San Remo: 7-0, 7-1, 6-1, 8-1, ...
GP Utrecht: 9-2, 6-1
...

So, does the rules of the Handbook apply or not? We should know this tomorrow in Helsinki Open GP.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Fri May 21, 2010 9:48 am

Apart from the fact that this "rule" is absolutely nonsense, I would suggest to write the true results.

If a FISTF officers who ever will prepare the result files one day to publish all the results, he is able to manipulate this as he desires Razz

The fact, someone lost in a match - let´s say 0-12 - and only a results "0-5" appearce officaly doesn´t makes a frustrating half an hour better for that player.

What if this happen now in a World Cup final like in 2008, as in U19 the final result was 1-8. Exclamation

It´s our current Sports Directors idea, he should better revoke it as quick as he can.... best before the next World Cup.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Admin on Fri May 21, 2010 9:49 am

In many cases, this rule has caused a lot of problems. In Belgium, we decided at the last meeting of the association Board that we would not follow it anymore and that a letter should be sent to the FISTF Board to ask to delete this rule. At the next meeting (tonight) I will ask if it has been done and if our president has received any answer.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Fri May 21, 2010 9:51 am

I bet not Laughing

Please keep us informed
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  zinga on Fri May 21, 2010 9:55 am

Thossa wrote:Apart from the fact that this "rule" is absolutely nonsense, I would suggest to write the true results.
Well, it is two separate issues what to write in the results and should we use shots in the case of tie in the group. It is quite possible that tomorrow two players are equal if the rules apply but the other is better if the rule does not apply.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Admin on Fri May 21, 2010 10:41 am

One of the problems is that the rules are not clear. For instance, in a group of 3 (A, B & C), it can happen that the scores are:
A vs B 1-1
A vs C 6-1
B vs C 5-0

Should we really say A & B have to play a shoot-out while the score are clear and A scored one more goal?

I don't think it would be wise to have a shoot-out.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  zinga on Fri May 21, 2010 12:29 pm

Admin wrote:One of the problems is that the rules are not clear. For instance, in a group of 3 (A, B & C), it can happen that the scores are:
A vs B 1-1
A vs C 6-1
B vs C 5-0

Should we really say A & B have to play a shoot-out while the score are clear and A scored one more goal?

I don't think it would be wise to have a shoot-out.
Actually, the rules say clearly that both 5-0 and 6-1 results will be marked as 5-0. Thus, the group winner is decided with shots. This prevents manipulating the rule by giving on purpose goals to the weaker player in order to score more goals.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Eoin on Fri May 21, 2010 1:05 pm

It's also disappointing to the player that loses to mark the score as 5-0.

When I began playing, I lost a lot of games 7-0, 8-0, 9-0 etc. Then one day I only lost 7-1 and it felt like I was starting to improve since I scored my first goal. To someone that's just began playing or isn't very good, scoring one or two goals means a lot more than keeping the goal difference down by a couple.

It's also disappointing to someone who plays well to keep the score down to 5 against one of the top players in the world, only for others to think the score could have been anything and just capped at 5.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  von K. on Fri May 21, 2010 3:10 pm

The idea is maybe ok in some lower level competitions, but a higher level as the World Cup or Majors etc. it's not good. At least the level should be 10-0 not 5-0, because even a good player can lose 6-0. And it's wrong if two very good players play in the same group with a bit weaker player (but no beginner). The other one plays brilliantly and wins 10-1, and the other just about scrapes a 5-0 win.

As said the idea is good in some competitions and maybe in some cases. It's no use beating a beginner 20-0. Neither player gets anything out of it and it leaves a bad taste if you have to score that many. But the maximum score is still too low. 10-0 would be better.

An example: two years ago in the Helsinki Open I was in a group with Phillippe Hipfinger and two under aged beginners (who had played about 10 matches both). I told Phillippe about these beginners and we decided that the group should be decided by our mutual game or shoot-out. So we won both other games by about 7 or 8 goals. Everyone was happy, and we could also give advice to the beginners during the game. And on the other hand we could try more difficult things that are needed in the tougher games later. I know it's a bit fishy, but I think it's the correct attitude towards beginners. As a teenager no one is going to continue with a sport where you get humiliated. With established players it's different.

I don't know the best way to do things, but I would at least suggest a maximum of 10-0. And nothing when we are playing a World Cup, Major or even a GP or IO in a bigger country (more tournaments and events for beginners). In smaller countries we try to get everyone to participate and that means also beginners, like in this years Helsinki Open.

We must also remember that the score 5-0 (or 10-0) doesn't take away the goal of the beginner, it is meant to take the pressure of humiliating off better players.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  maxischn on Fri May 21, 2010 7:40 pm

if i'm down with 0-5 I will take out my goalkeeper and play with 11 figures, won't change anything then

or score some own goals, happens more often then I guess.. but won't be of any meaning because the game will end with 5-0 anyway
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Fri May 21, 2010 9:27 pm

If you are down with more than 0-5 just finish the game... you will lose 0-3 only Twisted Evil
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  maxischn on Fri May 21, 2010 11:24 pm

no way, my opponents deserve no breaks Razz and it would cost some € to concede. i can have more fun with some shooting training on my own goal in the meantime Very Happy
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  kechris on Sat May 22, 2010 7:37 am

The problem with big scores like 9-1 prove that we need two categories in a tournament .
Different level tournaments as G.P and FUTURES cann't solve this problem.
In champion league i remember Juventus score 7 against Olympiakos, Liverpool score 8 against a turkey team and la Corunia against Monaco with high score (I think 8-2).
I believe that if you don't like the high scores you can change the system of qualification groups or you can change the categories in tournaments or you can change your idea for high scores...
But the worst idea is to change the score !!!
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Admin on Sat May 22, 2010 12:47 pm

Thossa wrote:I bet not Laughing

Please keep us informed
I confirm the letter was sent.
And I confirm the belgian association got no answer...
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Rob Smith on Sat May 22, 2010 5:16 pm

i saw Eric Verhagen win 7-4 recently, i think in a semi final, i won a semi final last year 6-0, but i played really well

what is wrong with this, these things happen?

keep the scores as they are, there is no need to change as it doesn't benefit anyone
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Martin Hodds on Mon May 24, 2010 2:10 am

A v B = 1-1
B v C = 22-0
A v C = 23-0

Does this prove player A is better than B ? Not really.
Will player C play another tournament ? Probably not.

I agree the 5-0 limit is too low though. Maybe 9-0 so the score doesn't reach double figures.

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Rob Smith on Mon May 24, 2010 4:34 am

Rob Smith wrote:i saw Eric Verhagen win 7-4 recently, i think in a semi final, i won a semi final last year 6-0, but i played really well

what is wrong with this, these things happen?

keep the scores as they are, there is no need to change as it doesn't benefit anyone

the point i was trying to make is - does this game become 5 nil???

What FISTF is saying is that a game is now 15 mins each way, or first to score 5?

confused
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Guest on Mon May 24, 2010 1:34 pm

This discussion explains perfectly why the table football has been disappearing worldwide.

There is a total lack of sensitivity, love for people who come for the first time at table football.

The 5-0 rule (which works perfectly in several countries) is essential to prevent madmen from 50 years to engage people dip of goals that often come to the table football for the first time.

It is clear that if we have 100,000 players tournaments at all levels and we would be the first tournament could play with the number 1 in the world.

The problem is that we had to "force" why not score goals there were people who scored 17 goals for children 11 years ....

Federer or Nadal you imagine playing tennis at Roland Garros with a child under 11 years to the first tournament and win 6-0 6-0-6-0 without letting a single 15?

No? Why not? because 'Nadal and Federer are serious people, great talent, and no no bitter old paid their frustrations on children or the first experience.

Until table football will not be removed these unpleasant characters will have to have this kind of rules.

Interestingly where no longer useful, because people have already understood why there is the rule, is just where the 5-0 is required ....

Greetings

Piero

ps: for 5-0 and not 3 or 6?

have you ever played football?

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  maxischn on Mon May 24, 2010 3:47 pm

pierro, so tell me, if i play against a youngster, playing his first game

i score 10 goals, so he can see that this is a game of skill and training, and not by luck... if i only win 1-0, he and his friends will think "wow boring game, i can beat a world championship aber two games because he just can win 1-0"

if you win the first game 10-0, after one month only 8-0 and then juts 3-0 the young boy will see his improvment, he will be eager to train and only get 2 or 1 goal and win in the end

if you always play to 5-0 and then stop shooting goals because it isn't worth shooting more, he will stand still and see no improvement, always the same 5 goals, boring stuff and finally quit playing.

and on the other hand, image i shoot 10 goals, and just let him shot 1 for fun or 2, the score is 10-2 in the end. he is happy he scored two goals, he wants to show this to his friends, brings over the result sheets in school.... bam..... 5-0

great!
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Eoin on Mon May 24, 2010 3:58 pm

Poorer players might also wonder what the point is in turning up, when their scores are just going to be recorded as 0-5 all the time.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Rob Smith on Mon May 24, 2010 4:10 pm

what happens if you are 5-3 up at half time and lose 6-5 ?

do you win 5 nil or lose 5 nil?
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  maxischn on Mon May 24, 2010 4:12 pm

5-5 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy (just kidding)
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  kechris on Mon May 24, 2010 4:17 pm

Please wake up.
The problem isn't the high score.
If for example Eric win Carlos 8-3 we haven't problem.
But if Eric win a newcomer player with the same score we have BIG problem.
You spend your time for the correct maximum score and you don't look for the correct solution.
You created before many years different categories (veterans, juniors, U15, U12, ladies).
You also created different tournaments for weak players ( sattelite, future, challenger).

BUT YOU CANN'T OPEN YOUR EYES TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED MORE LEVELS IN OPEN CATEGORY.

The solutions are simple, the decisions are difficult.
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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Guest on Mon May 24, 2010 4:23 pm

I think we're talking about two different things.

I'm not talking about a World Cup or a major, (and anyway, two years ago there are people who have lost 15 or 20-0 ....).

We should start from the premise of a world who will have to know where it goes. Or, in theory to a major.

The way to "measure" the capabilities of a child is not counting certain goals that gets you a man of 50 years.

These characters also are well kept giving advice to new players. They are more concerned about being number 7 of 30 that 30,000 number 35 is the reality.

The International Federation and national associations have the responsibility to protect the new practitioners.

Children or young players are the only heritage we have. No false stars that win tournaments.

You know I weigh 100 pounds. If I did not let me fight boxing with a 60 .... but if we are only 3 to compete, I do not think smashing his fist as opposed to contribute to their training.

Maybe I should use this to explain, give advice etc. .. But, is dedicated to get you goals and strutting with his friends how good it is.

Want to show you a statistic on how many people have quit football because of attitudes table how are you?

You asked a manager of a federation where the rule exists if this is a good or bad for growth in the number of practitioners?

You know that many football associations have changed the rules to prevent youth level matches ending 40-0 among 10 years?

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Re: Maximum score (5-0) in the group stage

Post  Thossa on Mon May 24, 2010 4:51 pm

I know, there is a large majority of players AGAINST the 5-0 "manipulation", and only a small number accept it. That´s a fact FISTF should not ignore.

I know Eric Verhagen. There are not much top-players like him, taking so much time for weaker and younger players to practise in breaks, after or before tournaments. He gives a lot valuable assistance, even when he plays against them, too.

I say all the time to beginners who participate new in international tournaments. You are here to learn. Learn from the best and it is normal in real soccer when Bayern Munich beats Titikaka Idaho 15-0.

We have other tools, than to manipulate results, I mean, the idea is to protect weaker players but an offical "manupulated" result doesn´t make a 0-15 in reality better and protect them. If you really want to protect players, you have to make a decision like: the game stops at 5-0, even if it only 5 minutes old..., but this is similar ridiculous.
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