Qualification from the world rankings

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  drastis on Thu May 20, 2010 11:00 pm

Apparently, there are still people who care about the game/sport. This is a good point. Opinions may differ, but it is very important that some people care. Stefano, Vesa and Janus use common sense to approach the matter, while others try to use rocket science. This is another good point. There are still people who think simple and have their feet on the ground.

Frankly, it's heart-breaking that the new BoD members do not want to be part of such discussions. Even sadder that they are not leading this. For every neutral observer it is plain that almost every person in the new BoD has a personal agenda. One wants to make his country a dominant power, another wants to revenge Coppenolle, the other wants to satisfy his personal ambition to become someone and so on. It can't work this way. There is no common goal. And most importantly, there is no sentiment, no respect.

I have not read the renowned "Circular No 17", I do not know if it really exists. But, to hear that the BoD "decided" that people are deprived of their ELEMENTARY DEMOCRATIC RIGHT to be candidates for the BoD is a real insult! Who are these people to decide that only one person from each country has the right to be a candidate? Who are they to decide that they THEMSELVES will be the only candidates.

I am asking you mr Catania, mr Garnier, mr De Francsco, who gave you the right to take such absolute decisions against FISTF statuses?? Do you believe this is for the good of the game? Can you please explain? Vincent Coppenolle became a scapegoat exactly because he thought he was right in everything he did. Now, it seems he has taken his lesson and changed his mind and attitude. He listens to people now, while you don't. You have the time to think about it and change your attitude before it is too late. Do not split the world table football community, it is not good for you as much as it is not good for all.

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  panagios on Fri May 21, 2010 8:09 am

alex panagiotopoulos from Greece
does this change anything really?

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  von K. on Fri May 21, 2010 8:51 am

drastis wrote:I have not read the renowned "Circular No 17", I do not know if it really exists.

Of course you haven't read it, because it's still not on the FISTF site despite being published over a week ago. Also it's to "all Presidents" so in some countries it's de facto only for those who will fill their own nomination form.

The circular is also meant to be to "all Nations", but what this then means depends on the countries. For me it means everyone.

Here below is the sad text (truly in sports...):


Reference: CIRCULAR0017
To: All Presidents
All Nations

13th May 2010

Dear All,
Congress 2010
As promised by the Provisional Board in January 2010, at the next Congress to be held in
Germany on Friday 3rd September 2010 at 17.30 hours followed by the draws for the
World Cup in Rain, I wish to inform you that the official nominations for the posts of
Directors in the Board of FISTF are open till May 31st 2010.
Any national association who intends to nominate a person from its country to occupy a
position in the FISTF Board between September 2010 and September 2014 shall fill in the
attached form. All forms must be sent by the President of the particular federation, as the
representative will be representing the country first and foremost.
Any nation interested to nominate someone to contest the election for the post of
President of FISTF shall clearly state this in the form attached, else all candidates will be
contesting a post as Member of the Board. There are five posts to be filled by persons
from different countries.
Any form shall be addressed in full to the secretary@fistf.info by not later than 31st May
2010. All forms will be acknowledged. Late forms or uncompleted will be automatically
discarded.
Truly In Sports
Silvio Catania
FISTF President

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri May 21, 2010 9:25 am

I don't think that it is 100% right what you write, but I can't proof that you are wrong Cool
Let's see it from another side, you are right when you write the movement has to start from the base, you are right when you write it is not good to have EL and CL at the moment.
I think there will be a discussion about your comment that table soccer should move a bit away from the soccer. I agree with you according on our weakest category (the ladies secition), because you won't attract female players with the argument of soccer, I even think we have problems with that category because of that fact, but on the other side you can interest most children with that argument, for the female players, a board needs to think of another strategy.
About professionalism I have a different opinion. Money rules the world and sport, I don't like that fact, but I fear it's reality. You need money to develop associations to make promotion and so on. I know many sports using tricks like the current board to look bigger and professional to attract more media, which means you can easier attract sponsors.
I would compare table soccer with some kind of sports recognized in Austria for an example, there are some kinds of sports only recognized because of the history or a famous president with good contacts to the politic.
If the associations have problems to find sponsors FISTF can support them, if FISTF has sponsors. If the current way is the correct one or if the people are the right one, is another discussion, but if we won't look professional we don't attract sponsors.
Even if we don't want to be a sport it would help the associations, if FISTF has a good marketing.

Heinz

von K. wrote:In my opinion Stefano Buzzi wrote important things. And I must say that he would be much more realistic BoD member than many present ones.

The problem at the moment seems to be that there are people who think our game/sport is as big as Snooker etc. There is a saying in finnish (I don't know the english version, so translation) that "you climb to the tree starting from the base". You have to do the grassroots work first and when the game is big enough, you can move to professionalism. Now people want professional Masters in tv although the game is tiny at best when you think globally. Italy is the only country where it's quite big.

So, maybe the Europa League/Champions League idea can be done when there are enough players and teams to do it properly. At the moment the EC and Ranking tournaments are enough. And the really hard and difficult work is to get more players and clubs in all the countries. The fact is, as written already, that the national activity is the base for international activity. Not the other way around.

A wonderful example of doing it the right way, is USA's Paul Eyes and his work at local school (it's a shame that also this was erased when the FISTF Forum was closed). This is the sort of activity where we (maybe 95% of the TF countries) would need support from the international federation. A starting kit for activity for children at schools would help the game grow, not trying to join the Olympic Committee with 30 national players.

By the way, Paul Eyes' work should really get some official acknowledgement, as it's unique and brings new players to the game by the bucketloads.

Then regarding the Europa League/Champions League system and the problem with table football contra football: This whole thing with naming those after football competitions is bringing table football closer to football. And, as Buzzi said, this is not the idea. Our game is more like Tennis or Snooker than Football because of ranking systems. Why on earth should we have EL and CL, so that it looks like we're role playing football. This can't be good if we want to be an independent and respected game.

Of course most new players, espeacially children, are interested in football if they are interested in this game. So it's good to keep that in mind in the grassroots activity. Some players wouldn't play at all without the football aspect. In Italy there are the Old Subbuteo rules, in England the older Subbuteo rules and in Finland we have the Finnish rules (almost role playing with real competitions and team formations and 1 figure/1 real player in a team, with old bases and without polish). But maybe there should be also a version of the modern FISTF rules that is meant for those wanting to play a football game. I've noticed on the Italian (and English) forum that some people don't like some rules that are very far from football. And especially in Italy some of these players play with FISTF rules and not Old Subbuteo (in England these players seem to skip the FISTF rules altogether).

I'm saying that the main FISTF game should be done without any forced connection to real football if it's ever going to get respected by the wider audience. But FISTF risks losing a lot of players if the football aspect is totally disregarded. A more football-like and easier rulebook (that is still closer to FISTF rules than Old Subbuteo and the other old Subbuteo rules) would probably bring more players to the game and some of them would also start playing with the FISTF "Competition" rules.

Sorry for the largely off topic post, but some of it had something to do with previous posts...

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri May 21, 2010 11:12 am

von K. wrote:
...
Any national association who intends to nominate a person from its country to occupy a
position in the FISTF Board between September 2010 and September 2014 shall fill in the
attached form. All forms must be sent by the President of the particular federation, as the
representative will be representing the country first and foremost.
Any nation interested to nominate someone to contest the election for the post of
President of FISTF shall clearly state this in the form attached, else all candidates will be
contesting a post as Member of the Board. There are five posts to be filled by persons
from different countries.
Any form shall be addressed in full to the secretary@fistf.info by not later than 31st May
2010. All forms will be acknowledged. Late forms or uncompleted will be automatically
discarded ...

Sorry, guys, but I can't find in the letter that an association can only nominate one candidate !?!? Where do you take it from ?
Each association can print the form as much and often it wants, put in the best options (names) and send it to FISTF. Where is the problem ?

Janus Gersie
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  drastis on Fri May 21, 2010 11:20 am

von K. wrote:
Of course you haven't read it, because it's still not on the FISTF site despite being published over a week ago. Also it's to "all Presidents" so in some countries it's de facto only for those who will fill their own nomination form.
I guess Greece is one of those countries!!

Thanks for publishing the circular anyway. It seems our "president" is very busy with his "FISTF communication director" role (you know, updating FISTF site, publishing results etc), so he probably did not find the time to inform players in Greece that the circular was sent.

Reading the circular carefully though, I don't think it says that only one person from each coutry can be a candidate. On the contrary, it says that "All forms must be sent by the President of the particular federation", so to me it's clear that the forms may be more than one.

Of course, the matter remains whether it is written in FISTF statuses that a person can be a candidate only via his national association. If it is not written there, apart form arbitrary and undemocratic, this is certainly an illegal decision.

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Thossa on Fri May 21, 2010 11:49 pm

player wrote:i dont know you personal, but you are a wise man!!!

Let me help you a bit, Eric...

Stefano Buzzi is a former FISTF BoD-member.

Please correct me, if I am wrong, Stefano: from 1994 - 1998 as FISTF Marketing Director.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Sat May 22, 2010 9:40 am

panagios wrote:alex panagiotopoulos from Greece
does this change anything really?

Yes Alex!!

Now I can ask you the name of the restaurant where you enjoy spiders and scorpions for breakfast!! Laughing

Of course I'm joking, but I like to speak with people and not with spiritual entity
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Sat May 22, 2010 10:05 am

Thossa wrote:
player wrote:i dont know you personal, but you are a wise man!!!

Let me help you a bit, Eric...

Stefano Buzzi is a former FISTF BoD-member.

Please correct me, if I am wrong, Stefano: from 1994 - 1998 as FISTF Marketing Director.

I was in Zurich in the february 1992 for the presentation of unified FISA and ETF rules and new Sport Figures
From 1992 to 1994 I've collaborated with Mr Hofmann in Sport Commission
In Paris 1994 I was elected FISTF general secretary in place of Trevor Spencer, the Waddington nominated to control our game. The word Sport replaced Subbuteo in the name of International Federation
In Silkeborg 1996 I've lost election becouse many countries didn't approve my proposal to move to Internet all our work with a website where you could found informations about calendar, rules, software, training camp for new player or clubs, etc etc.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Sat May 22, 2010 11:36 am

Stefano Buzzi wrote:In Silkeborg 1996 I've lost election becouse many countries didn't approve my proposal to move to Internet all our work with a website where you could found informations about calendar, rules, software, training camp for new player or clubs, etc etc.
I'm not surprised. In the 90's, there were many people against Internet. They did believe it would never work.
Times change Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  player on Sat May 22, 2010 1:41 pm

@ mister buzzi; why'not be c andidate again in september?? you sound like a very sophisticated, explored person! very good for the sport!!

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  panagios on Tue May 25, 2010 8:06 am

If you read my post again you will see that - since I do not know you in person - make a remark about generalizations. If you see this as spider's venom then ok, I can do nothing about this. I am only saying that still I have not heard of a complete plan for subbi. And I mean step by step, with ALL the steps in detail.

Much like a business plan, first you address the problems, you describe why they are problems, and you propose detailed solutions.

Alex

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Tue May 25, 2010 5:01 pm

Ok Alex, but the title of this post is: Qualification from the world rankings.

So, I think we only can speak about this and not about other topics.

What I think it's wrong to compare our organization to UEFA, because:
1) We play another Sport
2) We play alone against the other player and not 11 against 11
3) The qualifications in UEFA Cups start from national Leagues because they HAVE NOT other tournaments than those!

If they had different tournaments during the season with a correspnding Ranking, it should be the first criterion and the national leagues would come at secon place becouse it's logical.

But it's only my way to think and I'm not member of any commission or friend of the Sport Director. This just is a unofficial forum where we can discuss about their decisions and in the meantime to wish they are not so blind to work only for their pride without to change their point of view.

The management by objectives & goals you are speaking about is their work, and not mine, yours or belonging to other people than the actual Board.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  von K. on Tue May 25, 2010 5:20 pm

I would vote for dottore Buzzi!

Very realistic and logical view of things and clearly not pig headed. It's a pleasure to read his views.

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu May 27, 2010 10:54 am

Stefano, of course you are right, we don't play soccer.
I only think there are good systems in many sports which could be used for table soccer if they are a bit modified, I don't think that there is anything left which can be explored by the board of FISTF.
The secret is only to find the right things in other sports, modify them or even mix things of different sports in a good way that they can be used for tablesoccer too.
The added system of the sports director is not bad in my opinion, it is copied from soccer, but we need to modify it a bit more for tablesoccer in my opinion.
With that ranking done by the Sports Director we have another factor in the whole story. So far the only factors have been the World Ranking and the National League. All associations could nominate the same number of starters, additionally there could play some teams qualified over the WR, but in the end the situation was over many years the same.
Conclusion of the experience in the last years has to be to reduce the maximum number of starters per country, Stefano's idea is that ranking, but the important fact of this idea is that associations with maybe only 1 starter have the chance to get a second starter instead of another country having actually 2 starters. If 1 association gets a second starter, there is also one association loosing a starter.
The system could be very interesting, the most important thing is the key of points and to implement the qualification over WR, in my opinion not in the same way like now with 2 teams per country in the top 8. Actually the number 15 is qualified over the WR too, because there are too many teams from italy and belgium in the top 8. (my proposal exists and is published here)
If the system is introduced well, every game and every place is going to be important (not only for the team, but for the whole association). That's a significant difference to the actual system.
When the system is working for the CL, the next step could be to introduce the Europa League and add it to the ranking (with lower points). This would give growing associations a better chance to reach more places in the CL by sending teams to the Europa League. Associations not having the possibility to send teams to the Euro League need to work in their country to get more clubs. My time horizon for the Europa League would be about 2 or 3 years after introducing the ranking of the Sports Director, then the CL system should work (all small corrections should be finished then, which can only be done, when seeing the system working).

Heinz
Stefano Buzzi wrote:Ok Alex, but the title of this post is: Qualification from the world rankings.

So, I think we only can speak about this and not about other topics.

What I think it's wrong to compare our organization to UEFA, because:
1) We play another Sport
2) We play alone against the other player and not 11 against 11
3) The qualifications in UEFA Cups start from national Leagues because they HAVE NOT other tournaments than those!

If they had different tournaments during the season with a correspnding Ranking, it should be the first criterion and the national leagues would come at secon place becouse it's logical.

But it's only my way to think and I'm not member of any commission or friend of the Sport Director. This just is a unofficial forum where we can discuss about their decisions and in the meantime to wish they are not so blind to work only for their pride without to change their point of view.

The management by objectives & goals you are speaking about is their work, and not mine, yours or belonging to other people than the actual Board.

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Thu May 27, 2010 12:29 pm

Ok, but the problem rest the different poin of view between Singular games and Team games.

They can not put any difference because a Team game is not like to play in a team in Soccer and if it's enought to ghange the name to obtain the result, the firs thing I'm going to do is to run to change the name to my ugly neighbor: do you really think that if I call her Brigitte Bardot she looks beautifulest?
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu May 27, 2010 12:48 pm

Where is the problem in that special case?

I pointed it out that it doesn't work only to copy something.

Heinz


Stefano Buzzi wrote:Ok, but the problem rest the different poin of view between Singular games and Team games.

They can not put any difference because a Team game is not like to play in a team in Soccer and if it's enought to ghange the name to obtain the result, the firs thing I'm going to do is to run to change the name to my ugly neighbor: do you really think that if I call her Brigitte Bardot she looks beautifulest?

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Thu May 27, 2010 3:18 pm

So,tell me why on sunday the final ranking takes me to the World Championship and on saturday not!?!

Where is the ratio of this decision if not copy something because they have not other ideas, but basically they have not idea about Table Soccer is or not?!?
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu May 27, 2010 3:20 pm

I don't understand what you are talking about?

Stefano Buzzi wrote:So,tell me why on sunday the final ranking takes me to the World Championship and on saturday not!?!

Where is the ratio of this decision if not copy something because they have not other ideas, but basically they have not idea about Table Soccer is or not?!?

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Thu May 27, 2010 3:59 pm

Stefano means that if he's going to for exemple to the GP of italy, the points he will get from the individual tournament might help to qualify him for the individual world cup while the points he will get from the team event will not help him to qualify for the Europa Cup.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu May 27, 2010 4:02 pm

I made a proposal that the WR should be considered again, but in another way.
The points also don't help, if he is only the 4th best italian player, it is exactly the same situation!?
I wrote that in my opinion some more modifications need to be done, so am I right to think that Stefano and me agree? ;-)

Heinz

Admin wrote:Stefano means that if he's going to for exemple to the GP of italy, the points he will get from the individual tournament might help to qualify him for the individual world cup while the points he will get from the team event will not help him to qualify for the Europa Cup.

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Thu May 27, 2010 4:04 pm

Heinz, the Open Ranking takes you to to W.Cup
And also the Veteran Ranking, U19, U15 Ladies Ranking take you to the W.Cup

But the Team World Ranking not, and this because they consider singolar tournaments differents than team tournaments and you know why? Because they understand that Table Soccer is not played with 11 players, but when they read "Team" the only thing they think is: "Wow!! This is the same of Football: the name is the same and we have to do the same!!"

In Italy some people play our game like Soccer and in the tournaments no name of players are written, but only Liverpool, Manchester, Paris SG, Austria Vienna etc. The name of this association is OldSubbuteo and I respect their choise, but is another way to think, not better and not worse, just different.
They call their tournaments "World Cup 1990" or similar: we can not do the same!!!

Subbuteo, Zeugo and Total Soccer are games which we can found new players. We can work for them in the shooting of promotional videos. And they can help us with sponsorship or promotional for children.

Our organization is founded on Sport: we are not apes only able to copy soccer for the only two words we can share with them: "Soccer and Team!!"
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu May 27, 2010 4:14 pm

The team ranking should bring you to the EC.
We are already different to soccer, because in soccer no ranking brings you to a WC or EC, the ranking of UEFA only decides how many teams of the association can play the CL and EL. The club ranking decides in which qualification round a club has to start and if they are seeded or not.
So there are already some modifications for table soccer to make it useable.
If I get you wrong you would like to see that the points reached by the teams are also added to the individual ranking, depending on who are the players in the team? That would be another interesting view on the whole thing.
I'm with you that we can't act like you described the Old Subbuteo if we want to be our own sport, but in my opinion we can have a look on other sports and adapt their structure to use it for a club, a federation or a World federation.

Heinz

Stefano Buzzi wrote:Heinz, the Open Ranking takes you to to W.Cup
And also the Veteran Ranking, U19, U15 Ladies Ranking take you to the W.Cup

But the Team World Ranking not, and this because they consider singolar tournaments differents than team tournaments and you know why? Because they understand that Table Soccer is not played with 11 players, but when they read "Team" the only thing they think is: "Wow!! This is the same of Football: the name is the same and we have to do the same!!"

In Italy some people play our game like Soccer and in the tournaments no name of players are written, but only Liverpool, Manchester, Paris SG, Austria Vienna etc. The name of this association is OldSubbuteo and I respect their choise, but is another way to think, not better and not worse, just different.
They call their tournaments "World Cup 1990" or similar: we can not do the same!!!

Subbuteo, Zeugo and Total Soccer are games which we can found new players. We can work for them in the shooting of promotional videos. And they can help us with sponsorship or promotional for children.

Our organization is founded on Sport: we are not apes only able to copy soccer for the only two words we can share with them: "Soccer and Team!!"

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