Qualification from the world rankings

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Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Sat May 15, 2010 10:11 am

From next season the world rankings will not be used to qualify teams for the Europa Cup. What do you think about it?
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Thomas Vulpes on Sat May 15, 2010 10:33 am

Concerns the regulation as it is known can not be implemented. Why do I have already said. It favors countries from the beginning to have many teams here.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Tue May 18, 2010 3:51 pm

Hi, this is Stefano Buzzi, president of TSC Stella Artois.

I'm against this new rule for many reasons.

1) The reason to introduce this rule was to eliminate repechages from the W.R. under the 8 qualified, and not all the W.R.

2) The qualification round in UEFA soccer are national tournaments starting in the mounth of august/september till summer: do the FISTF Cup will take place in a weekend or not?
What we will do in the rest of the season? Playing Cards?

3) What about the future of W.R.? Today we have a long list of different tournaments, with different points at the end of the game: in the future it will be enought to play 2 weekends in national championship and a weekend in the continent for Europa Cup!! Why have I to send my club in tournaments with no interest for a no important Ranking?

4) The Serie A is played on EW pitches, that you can not found in other contest outside Italy: It means that the qualification round is played on a different surface and it doesn't exist in any sport.
The first one is like to play bandy and the second soccer: both of them has goals, a ball and 11 players, but are different games!!!!
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue May 18, 2010 4:09 pm

Hi Stefano, welcome in the forum, nice to see your club represented here.

I will comment your points as far as I know.

1. The rule was not introduced by the new Director of Sport for the reason you wrote. The problem is that in many countries the national team championships are meaningless because there are only a few clubs and 1 or 2 of them are already qualified over the ranking and the association can nominate 2 more clubs, so many countries can't fill the whole contingent. Of course there are other possibilities too to solve that problem.
For an example you could take only the best team of a country if it is placed in the top 8 or top 10 of the ranking as an additional qualified team, then use the ranking of Stefano De Francesco in combination with that, and I think it could be an intersting system.

2. The hope of the Sports Director is that this change won't influence the circuit, but as you can see in another thread on that forum, there are changes for the whole tour in discussion too, so I don't know if the actual tour will be existing in the future, we need to wait and see what the new board is going to decide.

3. The importance of the ranking should only be the seeding at the Europa League/Champions League.

4. There are going to be always different types of goals and pitches used at the events. The same "problem" exists with the goals. for an example we use to play with different goals in austria (as you know for sure from the major of Mattersburg) than most other countries.

Heinz

Stefano Buzzi wrote:Hi, this is Stefano Buzzi, president of TSC Stella Artois.

I'm against this new rule for many reasons.

1) The reason to introduce this rule was to eliminate repechages from the W.R. under the 8 qualified, and not all the W.R.

2) The qualification round in UEFA soccer are national tournaments starting in the mounth of august/september till summer: do the FISTF Cup will take place in a weekend or not?
What we will do in the rest of the season? Playing Cards?

3) What about the future of W.R.? Today we have a long list of different tournaments, with different points at the end of the game: in the future it will be enought to play 2 weekends in national championship and a weekend in the continent for Europa Cup!! Why have I to send my club in tournaments with no interest for a no important Ranking?

4) The Serie A is played on EW pitches, that you can not found in other contest outside Italy: It means that the qualification round is played on a different surface and it doesn't exist in any sport.
The first one is like to play bandy and the second soccer: both of them has goals, a ball and 11 players, but are different games!!!!

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Tue May 18, 2010 4:23 pm

Easy system:
each country can send 2 teams
+ 8 teams from the world rankings.
So what?

It's easy and fair. There is no need to change that!
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Martin Hodds on Tue May 18, 2010 4:25 pm

Admin wrote:Easy system:
each country can send 2 teams
+ 8 teams from the world rankings.
So what?

It's easy and fair. There is no need to change that!
I agree !! Very Happy

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Tue May 18, 2010 4:32 pm

Hi Heinz!!
Tks for your welcome on this forum.

1) The FISTF Sport Director presented us the rule with the reason I've wrote.....
2) In Bologna Major, in the same tournament, in the same weekend, you will be qualifyed for the World Cup on sunday, but not on saturday. I call this Bad Jurisprudence!!
3)...wow!!!....Great decision!!
4) The problem is not to play on different pitches or with different goals: probably this is my only personal problem in this thread, but we really don't "digest" EW national Pitches. We like Astro, Cotton, Nylon, but with FISCT EW every touch is a lottery and maybe we are unlucky!!! Razz

See U in Austria next August!!!
Stefano
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Tue May 18, 2010 4:34 pm

Martin Hodds wrote:
Admin wrote:Easy system:
each country can send 2 teams
+ 8 teams from the world rankings.
So what?

It's easy and fair. There is no need to change that!
I agree !! Very Happy

Me too!! I love you
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue May 18, 2010 4:42 pm

The board decided a change to play 2 competitions instead of one big competition, so it is clear that the numbers of the current EC need to go down to at least 24, with the current system you won't manage that.
Undependent if you agree on 2 competitions or not, the priority now should be to find a solution that the ranking will be more important than it is in the current situation.
I wrote my proposal in my posting, because I don't think it is possible to get back the current EC system, so I'm looking for another solution of the problem.

Heinz

Martin Hodds wrote:
Admin wrote:Easy system:
each country can send 2 teams
+ 8 teams from the world rankings.
So what?

It's easy and fair. There is no need to change that!
I agree !! Very Happy

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Tue May 18, 2010 5:27 pm

If this year the day of the final games of the austrian championship the team of Mattersburg has a car accident on the road and can not play because all players are injured, then the team can not qualify from the austrian league and not from the WR despite they are number 1.

Sorry but all this is ridiculous!
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue May 18, 2010 5:56 pm

With my proposal this wouldn't happen, so maybe it would be worth to try to convince Stefano to make that small change in his system.
I think the chance for something like that is bigger than only asking for cancelling the whole idea of Stefano Cool
Of course I can understand what you mean, but in Austria practically that can't happen at the moment, because in reality there are 3 clubs, but 7 teams playing the team championship, and our regulations would allow it that the players of the second team could play in such a special situation as the first team of Mattersburg. Cool

Heinz

Admin wrote:If this year the day of the final games of the austrian championship the team of Mattersburg has a car accident on the road and can not play because all players are injured, then the team can not qualify from the austrian league and not from the WR despite they are number 1.

Sorry but all this is ridiculous!

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Tue May 18, 2010 10:37 pm

So, this could be an alternative proposal:

Europa Cup:
Finalist of National Championship
Finalist of National Cup
First 8 of W.R. (or Europa Ranking)
No Repechages

Europa League:
Semifinalist of National Championship
Semifinalist of National Cup
from 9 to16 or 32
No Repechages

In this case, you respect Championships, Cups and W.R. giving to all the clubs the opportunity to organize the travel to the site where the two tournaments will take place.

It could be a big party of Table Football, sponsors and sport.
Working well, in two/three years the level of players and the number of clubs will realize the dream to burn the partecipation to one of those events.

I think so.

Stefano Buzzi
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  maxischn on Tue May 18, 2010 11:06 pm

sounds good BUT

this would mean to me that some teams may win the national championship to get to the europacup (if they are not yet qualified by WR)

AND

they will NOT win the national cup but only get to the finals, so they play both the Cup and the League.....

surely you can play both events on the same week-end to prevent this, but it will only double the effort to organize this and it will make the "lower" league less interesting if played at the same time as it will only look at the 2nd row....
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Tue May 18, 2010 11:14 pm

In the last few years there were not many candidates to organize the Europa Cup and the world cup and at the end, the "last minute organizers" get many critics for their work as "this shoudl ahve been better organized", and blah-blah-blah... and I don't see who is really willing to organize one more european cup. Wait & see...
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Wed May 19, 2010 12:10 am

maxischn wrote:sounds good BUT

they will NOT win the national cup but only get to the finals, so they play both the Cup and the League.....

surely you can play both events on the same week-end to prevent this, but it will only double the effort to organize this and it will make the "lower" league less interesting if played at the same time as it will only look at the 2nd row....

No, no!!

"No repechages" means also that if U are qualifyed to the Europa Cup, of course U don't play the E.League!!
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  maxischn on Wed May 19, 2010 6:09 am

ok got it wrong then
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Thossa on Wed May 19, 2010 7:31 am

It´s funny to see, how impressive people are ready to give their input for a good development of our interplay, while the responsable for this section prefers to use only the italian forum for his talkaktiviness.

The lost current FISTF Sports Director is simply a great disappointment in nearly every way.

If this is the standard pratice for the next four years - good night.

BTW: FISTF Marketing Manager, FISTF Sports Director, FISTF Secretary, all of them are busy users of the italian forum. A clear case of double standards in the provisional FISTF BoD. They demonize a International (FISTF-)Forum, but still use an italian forum. Very significant, gentlemen.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed May 19, 2010 9:47 am

Stefano, of course this could be an alternative too, but where is the change to the actual system? You have to take a look on the actual system, your proposal won't change anything and wouldn't allow the organization of an Europa League.
Please let the italian situation beside and think of the other countries, with your proposal only Italy and Belgium would have teams for the Euro League, all other countries could send all teams to the EC, additionally with the possibility to qualify over the WR like now, the National Championships would have the same importance in most countries they have now (no importance except of the title). With your proposal nearly the whole first league of Belgium would play the Europa Cup.
You need to restrict the qualification for the Champions League to get those teams for the Europa League, so you need to reduce the number of teams for most countries.
You also can't tell national associations how to nominate their teams for the Europa Cup, that's a national decision, you can only tell them, how many places the association has in the competition, the rest is up to the national association.

We have Stefanos ranking based on that we need to find a solution:
for an example:

1st and 2nd country in Stefanos ranking:
3 starters nominated by the national association + the best ranked team in the top 10
3rd to 6th country in Stefanos ranking:
2 starters nominated by the national association + the best team ranked in the top 10
all others:
1 starter nominated by the national association + the best team ranked in the top 10

in worst case (means you have 10 clubs from different countries in the top 10 of the ranking) you have a Champions League with maximum of 32, but i don't think it will ever happen that 10 clubs from 10 different countries are in the top 10 of the ranking.
In the actual situation there would be qualified 4 teams out of the top 10 over the WR, so there would be teams from some countries playing the EC actually, but with the new system they could play the Euro League.

Heinz

Stefano Buzzi wrote:So, this could be an alternative proposal:

Europa Cup:
Finalist of National Championship
Finalist of National Cup
First 8 of W.R. (or Europa Ranking)
No Repechages

Europa League:
Semifinalist of National Championship
Semifinalist of National Cup
from 9 to16 or 32
No Repechages

In this case, you respect Championships, Cups and W.R. giving to all the clubs the opportunity to organize the travel to the site where the two tournaments will take place.

It could be a big party of Table Football, sponsors and sport.
Working well, in two/three years the level of players and the number of clubs will realize the dream to burn the partecipation to one of those events.

I think so.

Stefano Buzzi

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Thu May 20, 2010 11:49 am

Heinz Eder wrote:Stefano, ......
You need to restrict the qualification for the Champions League to get those teams for the Europa League, so you need to reduce the number of teams for most countries.
You also can't tell national associations how to nominate their teams for the Europa Cup, that's a national decision, you can only tell them, how many places the association has in the competition, the rest is up to the national association.
....
Heinz

I think the Europa League is a good idea, but not yet.

First of all you have to come out right what you have on the Table, and then to think to the future with new ideas.

We have a W.R that has to be adjusted to be the real situation ok International Table Football (may be considering only 10 results)
We have to decide what Table Football is after 16 years from Paris, where Laurent Garnier said us "more than a game: a Sport".

For many years, our world had no problem with people without the polo shirt of your Club or Nation or drunk people: they simply couldn't play!!!

I remember Mario Baglietto in Sucy en Brie without the right shoes: Laurent didn't allow him to play till he dressed the sport shoes: that's a Sport, that's a serious manager, that's respect for other players!! (and Mario was member of my Club!!).

In the moment we decide what we aspect from our future (sport or game), we can think to Table Football, not before.

If you take the best Ferrari and the best Schumy and put them in a rally race, it's Motoring Sport, but the final rank is only one :"LAST!" .

What I see from my outside window on Table Football is a great confusion after the '90 years. Too many steps back to Subbuteo and the comparison to Soccer took us to the today situation, where golkeeper and figures are like Intel and Windows company: the last 15 years software and hardware become bigger with biggest performances.
We use windows 7 on our tables, when in 1969 we went to the moon with a Commodore 64!! Something went wrong!!!

So, what I try to say in this topic is it's not important what you choice for our Sport, but it' s basic you take that choice understandig what Table Football is.

I can explain what Agonistic Table Football is not: for example it's not Soccer.

The same for Soccer: when you are a child and you play with your friends on the green of a park, you are Kaka or Buffon and you play with your fantasy.
When you become professional, you stop this way to think and play a different game with the same rules: you understand?
In Italy we have Table Football and OldSubbuteo that play together in many towns, becouse we have clear we play with different mental approaches. You have to be free to take your decision, but when you play Table Soccer or OldSubbuteo you have to respect the preferences of other people.

This to say that I feel the Board choises on Table Football are decided thinking to Subbuteo and Soccer, while I play another Sport!
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  player on Thu May 20, 2010 11:57 am

i dont know you personal, but you are a wise man!!!

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Admin on Thu May 20, 2010 12:37 pm

I really agree with Stefano Buzzi.

The current philophy is not good.

-> We must not create a 2nd Europa Cup to have stronger national leagues.
BUT
-> We must create stronger national leagues to have later a 2nd Europa Cup.
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  panagios on Thu May 20, 2010 12:49 pm

I fail to grasp the table football - soccer example but if this suits all of you, then fine by me.
I believe that this particular part needs explaination. The rest is just philosophy. Nothing concrete or applicable. This game needs applicable ideas. I remember that the first time I saw the current boards' plan I thought to myself that there is nothing in there besides words and generalizations. The same applies here.

We need to fight with the weapons we have
we need to take a step at a time
table football is not soccer
little kids imagine they are buffon

These are all statements that do not offer anything real but win the contest "state the obvious"

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Stefano Buzzi on Thu May 20, 2010 4:06 pm

Nothing concrete or applicable?

Did you read only my last topic?

I just wrote that before to do you have to think about it!!

My impression (and I underline my[u]) is we have to decide the philosophy of this game before to do anything.

But it's only my impression after 30 years in the crazy world of Table Football!

I'm very happy you have the solution: please tell us the "ratio" of your decisions and I sure you we can politely discuss about it and without preconception on what is obvious or not!

For example, we could start from your name: obvious you know it, but it's not the same for me! Cool
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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  von K. on Thu May 20, 2010 6:11 pm

In my opinion Stefano Buzzi wrote important things. And I must say that he would be much more realistic BoD member than many present ones.

The problem at the moment seems to be that there are people who think our game/sport is as big as Snooker etc. There is a saying in finnish (I don't know the english version, so translation) that "you climb to the tree starting from the base". You have to do the grassroots work first and when the game is big enough, you can move to professionalism. Now people want professional Masters in tv although the game is tiny at best when you think globally. Italy is the only country where it's quite big.

So, maybe the Europa League/Champions League idea can be done when there are enough players and teams to do it properly. At the moment the EC and Ranking tournaments are enough. And the really hard and difficult work is to get more players and clubs in all the countries. The fact is, as written already, that the national activity is the base for international activity. Not the other way around.

A wonderful example of doing it the right way, is USA's Paul Eyes and his work at local school (it's a shame that also this was erased when the FISTF Forum was closed). This is the sort of activity where we (maybe 95% of the TF countries) would need support from the international federation. A starting kit for activity for children at schools would help the game grow, not trying to join the Olympic Committee with 30 national players.

By the way, Paul Eyes' work should really get some official acknowledgement, as it's unique and brings new players to the game by the bucketloads.

Then regarding the Europa League/Champions League system and the problem with table football contra football: This whole thing with naming those after football competitions is bringing table football closer to football. And, as Buzzi said, this is not the idea. Our game is more like Tennis or Snooker than Football because of ranking systems. Why on earth should we have EL and CL, so that it looks like we're role playing football. This can't be good if we want to be an independent and respected game.

Of course most new players, espeacially children, are interested in football if they are interested in this game. So it's good to keep that in mind in the grassroots activity. Some players wouldn't play at all without the football aspect. In Italy there are the Old Subbuteo rules, in England the older Subbuteo rules and in Finland we have the Finnish rules (almost role playing with real competitions and team formations and 1 figure/1 real player in a team, with old bases and without polish). But maybe there should be also a version of the modern FISTF rules that is meant for those wanting to play a football game. I've noticed on the Italian (and English) forum that some people don't like some rules that are very far from football. And especially in Italy some of these players play with FISTF rules and not Old Subbuteo (in England these players seem to skip the FISTF rules altogether).

I'm saying that the main FISTF game should be done without any forced connection to real football if it's ever going to get respected by the wider audience. But FISTF risks losing a lot of players if the football aspect is totally disregarded. A more football-like and easier rulebook (that is still closer to FISTF rules than Old Subbuteo and the other old Subbuteo rules) would probably bring more players to the game and some of them would also start playing with the FISTF "Competition" rules.

Sorry for the largely off topic post, but some of it had something to do with previous posts...

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Re: Qualification from the world rankings

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu May 20, 2010 6:23 pm

As ever a valid and well made point from "von K." ...

Regarding CL/EL for me it is clearly a wrong decision taken by the board. In Frankfurt we agreed on a proposal from Stefano de Francesco. What we got was a decision. The german association already complaint officially but got no answer yet ...

During a phone call Silvio already admitted an errror in this certain case. But no word about a cancellation of this decision ....

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