Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

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Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:51 pm

This was also in the italian forum, posted by Antonello. I have to say it's quite incredible that this proposal
1) exceeds the 3 month period (which ends 23rd of January)
2) has learned nothing from the last congress in Paris (3 nations present, including France!), and therefore is against the best interest of FISTF and especially nations
3) is clearly made with the sole interest of the Garnier and with presidential authority, although he has no legal right to use that authority.

The nations have, in this case (FISTF has no president), a clear right to choose the venue and date for the congress. Clear majority of nations have supported Vienna at the beginning of January. I hope the nations make it clear to mr. Garnier, that the meeting will be held in Vienna that date. If it will be in Paris without any tournament at the same time, I'm quite sure it will only lead to another catastrophy.

I can be wrong in my opinions, but I'm interested to read what others think about this.

"CONVOCATION
EXTRAORDINARY CONGRESS
To the Presidents of National Federations
Dear Presidents, Dear Friends,
Following the recent events in accordance with our statutes and the Board of Directors of FISTF you to convene an
extraordinary congress to be held Saturday, Feb. 2 in Paris - France.
Location and agenda will be sent later.
This congress will be an opportunity to adopt new statutes before proceeding to new elections.
To enable all nations to rule on the new statutes, a document will be sent to the end of November to allow you to
send us your comments and suggestions.
Order not to block the development of FISTF, the Board proposes that all countries will vote on the proposed texts
before Congress to allow different teams wishing to introduce themselves, to do according to the new method of election
.
By the Articles fall ratified at the congress with immediate effect.
This proposal will be subject to a vote of confidence by correspondence. Without the consent of a majority of
countries we will be forced to reconvene a new Congress.
Yours sport
Laurent GARNIER
Président de la FISTF
"

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:31 am

This will also be subject to further discussions within the community of nations calling for the EGM.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:07 pm

Yes, it will probably be another meeting with 3 (or let's say 5) nations present and everything will be done to prevent nations who want to vote by e-mail, fax or phone to do it. It's so predictable...
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:17 pm

Admin wrote:Yes, it will probably be another meeting with 3 (or let's say 5) nations present and everything will be done to prevent nations who want to vote by e-mail, fax or phone to do it. It's so predictable...

Vincent, you must mean that everything will be done to prevent certain nations voting by that way. In Madrid I heard the telephone rang and some legal loophole which was not known to most nations was used (Garnier being the postman delivering the vote, or something, was given as the reason to allow that by Giulio Fazio).

If Garnier has no intention on running for the office, why does it have to be in Paris? It seems he really does not give a rats ass about the benefit of FISTF and respect for the nations. Or he is just living in some illusion. farao

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:35 pm

Everything is "illusion" with Garnier anyway... No
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:24 pm

Without taking side for anybody, we should stay on facts.
The letter of the 10 nations was officially sent on 21st of november, so the deadline for a congress is the 21st of february in my opinion.
This should be common sense in my opinion otherwise different views about the deadline will lead to senseless discussions. The other solution would be to take the receiption of the latest letter which meant the needed number of nations.
In my opinion nations shouldn't make things more complicate than they are already and accept the 21st of november as start of the deadline, otherwise the new letter they sent wouldn't make any sense.
The Congress in Paris isn't on a week-end without a tournament. The Grand Prix of France will take place in Paris on that week-end. Exclamation Question

So far the facts.

If it is good or bad or if Laurent is allowed to do that has to be discussed by the nations.

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Thossa on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:50 pm

Another facts are:
- Laurent Garnier is a non-legitimated FISTF President
- 12 nations already agreed on a date and place.

Mainwhile he should have fancy the situation. It´s impressive how alone he stands. His time is over. What card does he play with Paris and a new date in February. To run out the clock? What for?

The sooner a new BoD can be elected, the better... to bring FISTF back on a right track.

Sorry, but to me it looks again like a reckless attitute.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  von K. on Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:43 am

Heinz Eder wrote:Without taking side for anybody, we should stay on facts.
The letter of the 10 nations was officially sent on 21st of november, so the deadline for a congress is the 21st of february in my opinion.
This should be common sense in my opinion otherwise different views about the deadline will lead to senseless discussions. The other solution would be to take the receiption of the latest letter which meant the needed number of nations.
In my opinion nations shouldn't make things more complicate than they are already and accept the 21st of november as start of the deadline, otherwise the new letter they sent wouldn't make any sense.
The Congress in Paris isn't on a week-end without a tournament. The Grand Prix of France will take place in Paris on that week-end. Exclamation Question

You are right about the tournament in Paris. I was sloppy and didn't check properly. I stand corrected.

About the date, I have understood from the letter of nations that 7 nations (over 1/3 which is enough if I remember correctly) wrote the first letter in October. If that was not sent to FISTF, then I wrote wrong.

You are also right when it comes to fruitless arguments about a date, but I have to say that all things considered (situation, needs of FISTF = many nations present, reasons Thossa gave), it is more fruitless and even absurd for Garnier to say it will be in Paris in February.

Heinz Eder wrote:If it is good or bad or if Laurent is allowed to do that has to be discussed by the nations.

About Garnier's rights, there is nothing to discuss. He has no legitimity. I would also find little to discuss when 12 nations already have agreed that Vienna is a good venue. But yes, it's up to the nations to take some responsibility over these matters, and not let one person, who is de facto working for the nations, disregard the nations.

I don't want to start polemics, but I have to say that if FISTF would be big enough to interest news agencies or big enough to be drawn into courts, the whole thing would be torn to pieces by journalists or magistrates, and even fencepoles would laugh at TF. Last few years it has really been a huge (well, miniature) joke, not a federation by any proper standards. I'm not saying it can't be better, but with these things happening, it's like children fighting over shovel in a sandbox, and one kid hiding the shovel.

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:33 am

Garnier’s legitimacy may be problematic, yet if he is denied any authority, all FISTF activity (including tournaments) pursued since Piero’s resignation should be invalidated. You can’t acknowledge the part of Garnier’s work you are comfortable with and then proclaim him unexisting on other concerns.

Besides, if the presidency must be considered vacant, the date of the extraordinary congress should be discussed among all national federations, not just among the nations that signed the letter.

A situation like this may arise in a niche, amateur federation like FISTF. Caution and common sense are the one way to deal with it in a constructive way. Not the place and time of the congress, but the reorganization of the statutes should be the top priority. Without elections by list and the ability for the chairman to dismiss/appoint BoD directors, no serious work can be done and no firm leadership can be settled.

Garnier stressed the importance of reforming the statues before going to new elections, and Luis posted some excellent suggestions over his blog. In this they earn my praise. Instead of rushing the congress we should work out a serious reform project in team with Luis and Garnier (wheather you like it or not, at the moment he is the only institutional figure apt to coordinate activities at an international level, and so prevent further chaos). The congress should only be gathered when the project is all set and ready to be approved the first day, with elections ensuing immediately after.

Any other approach is likely to end up in a Pyrric victory and eventually in FISTF’s break-up. I ask myself if this is not exactly what somebody is striving to.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:26 am

I get your pointers, Lorenzo. With some I agree with, and some others not. But it's a matter of opinion.

Yes Garnier's decisions during the time as "president" can't be accepted. We can't pick the good ones. However, you talked about tournaments which are just continuous activity in FISTF and need no decision by the President. So we don't have to declare void last year's basic activity, only the things Garnier has decided in the role of "president". He is, legally, still the general secretary, so he can do that things that have to do with that role. The competitions run under sports director and according to a handbook. If there have been changes to that made by Garnier, they have to be deleted, and if needed taken into consideration anew by a legitimate board.

I believe in elections without lists. The real problem, in my mind, is the lack of knowledge on how to run a board which is set up this way (individuals). It needs for example proper working methods, clear systems and involving the nations to back the decisions (not only to be decided and backed by the board). The whole process of running an international board and making decisions that the clear majority accepts (meaning compromises and well prepared suggestions) needs to be structured better. I have written about this (more specifically also) before, and I was ready to do this ground work when I candidated, and after that it would have not been important if the people in the board were from the same "team". It just means the old musty way of doing things has to be kicked out. So the problem, in my view, is not the election system, but the working methods of the board and the people in the board. I'm just afraid people are not ready for new ideas.

The statutes have to be written again, and for the past 2 years (already before Madrid) it has been talked about that there is a need for an international commission for this work. Nothing has happened during the spells of Capponi and Garnier. Especially the latter has lost much respect and trust lately (nothing to do with his past achievements, which can naturally be applauded at the same time, if needed). This problem with statutes and lack of unity and trust is why I already before Madrid suggested that there should be elected an interim board (made of as neutral people as possible) which would only serve for a shorter period of time (1 year max). It would only administrate and work with commissions, and its most important work would be the statute commission work. I say this again. With current board it's impossible (see also quote from Gary Pearson below), and with current statutes the elections could again be a farce like in Madrid. But I'm afraid that also here people are not ready for any new unorthodox methods, even though the old ones are just ruining everything.

Drastic situations call for drastic methods. And they are not even drastic really. Just unorthodox methods or solutions that come from the idea of solving the problems in the ship, not managing a problematic ship. Effectively used in innovative business world and conflict zones peace procedures alike. A bit like the difference between western and chinese medicin. Do you want to do something for the problem, or just the symptoms.

Taken from the british and irish forum here's one sad view on things by the after WC resigned Gary Pearson who was asked to help and who fixed the FISTF site:

Gary Pearson in the Subbuteoplayersforum wrote:As this is a general FISTF topic I just thought I would add my recent experience.

Some of you may know a couple of weeks ago the FISTF website lost a lot of information off it. This was due to a current FISTF board member deciding to delete users off the site and deleting the content that was added by that user. It seems everyone is scared of what everyone else can do. I then get a cry for help asking if there was anything I could do. I restored a back up from a week prior to the cock up (well its not as if the site was getting updated was it lol) and all was good.

I then sent an email to Laurent, Fred, Antonello, Luis, Leo and Alan offering a solution to this struggle for power over the website. This is the email I sent

Gents

I have copied you all in on this email as it affects all of you.

I have today restored FISTF.com to the back up made a week ago to reverse the changed made by Antonello which removed a lot of content on the site. Everything is now back as it was on the 15th November. This includes any user accounts created or deleted in the last week (Alan, I think you had an account created in the last week, this will need recreating if still required).

I also want to add I am on nobodies side over the current conflicts within the board and table football in general. I am not a member of the ESA so therefore I am not a member of FISTF, so I have no interest or rights to support any party. What I will say though is it takes time to do things like restore the back ups (it pulled every site on the server down while it was running and it took about 15 minutes) and I have had to take time out at work to do this. Yes I understand there are disputes now over the legality of the board after recent events, I also know it is a grey area both ways. What I am willing to do if it is acceptable to ALL parties is to remove everyones admin rights to the site leaving only one admin user, me. I would take control of the site until matters are resolved one way or the other and when this happens full control will be returned to whoever is in charge. I would then create posting only accounts for the 6 people reading this email. This will allow them to update the website with results, rankings and tournament information. Anything outside of that (like posting emails or comments about board members etc) would lead to the account being removed.

FISTF does not need another 3 months of fighting while things are resolved, players are fed up with it and you will kill what is left at the moment if you act like children. You all need to talk and work a way forward that is in the best interests of the players, not any individuals. Use the site for information, do not use it for propaganda.

I am not looking for any control or anything in making this offer, I am making it as a friend to you all who is outside the battle for power and as a form of mediation to help FISTF through another difficult time.

I will do nothing until all 6 of you give me a reply comfirming this is acceptable

Yours in sport (and remember its about sport, not power)
Gary




This was sent on November 22nd, 12 days ago. In that time I have had an email from Luis saying he would put the suggestion to the 10 nations calling for the EGM and would go with their decision (still waiting for that reply) and a brief chat with Alan saying its nothing to do with him.

The other 4 who comprise of the current board of FISTF and some of the main people who have called for the change could not be bothered to even acknowledge my email.

These are the men running the game, I personally would not trust them to run me a bath

I think this says everything that needs to be said about the people involved in the current board. The only one coming with dignity out of it is Luís. The others cry for help from a person who worked like a madman without any help in the WC in Manchester (and resigned immediately after that), didn't get any proper thanks, resigned disillusioned, and still clears up this mess. And they don't bother to answer his genuinely wise and neutral letter!

Gary Pearson is just the type I mean, when talking about administrative board taking temporary charge. We need people who love the game, but don't want to decide on it by themselves. People who actually don't need FISTF, but want to do things for it (because they are evidently mad). Instead with "normal" elections and the old ways... well, at least you know what you get...

Here are some reasons why, Lorenzo, even though understanding them I can't possibly agree with you on some parts. I agree with you that there is a need for new statutes, but I don't agree on who should lead the work. And as Garnier's position is illegitimate (he has been notified about this directly after he pronounced himself president), it's quite impossible to start any statute work without personnel who nations can accept and support (Garnier hasn't got that support now).

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Lorenzo on Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:26 am

He is, legally, still the general secretary, so he can do that things that have to do with that role. The competitions run under sports director and according to a handbook. If there have been changes to that made by Garnier, they have to be deleted


I don’t exactly know what decisions were taken in the last months, yet I suspect you will have a difficult time discerning Garnier’s steps from those taken by other board members. Many decisions are taken half-collegially.

I believe in elections without lists. The real problem, in my mind, is the lack of knowledge on how to run a board which is set up this way (individuals). It needs for example proper working methods, clear systems and involving the nations to back the decisions (not only to be decided and backed by the board)


I disagree. Considering the pettiness and immaturity running rampant in the milieu, and confirmed by Pearson’s statement, I expect you having a hard time overcoming grudges and coordinating conflicting views.

Involving the nations is tricky business, since most representatives devote little time to FISTF and wont even answer your pleas.

Finally, the actual electoral system allows national representatives to force their way into the board by their voting power. In Madrid for example, Piero and Stefano were perfectly aware that Garnier and Kutroumanos should be held out – I recall Piero writing on the Italian forum that Garnier was rising more havoc than a swarm of locusts – yet they had to accept them in the board just to earn their votes.

This problem with statutes and lack of unity and trust is why I already before Madrid suggested that there should be elected an interim board (made of as neutral people as possible) which would only serve for a shorter period of time (1 year max). It would only administrate and work with commissions, and its most important work would be the statute commission work.


I agree on the interim board and everything, but be aware of commissions: most of them shall be appointed and then do nothing. Just like the board, each commission should be led by one single individual responsible in front of the chairman and entitled to dismiss other commission members. Good old Führerprinzip.

Taken from the british and irish forum…


Over subbuteoforum.it Antonello denied deleting anything and talked about a spontaneous crash. Who knows the truth. Anyway, I agree that (yet another) FISTF board is offering a pitiful display, and that Garnier cant be trusted. We truly need new people. However, since he is willing to go anyaway, he might help to stabilize the moment of passage.

Its difficult to judge with any precision, since we know nothing about the plans (if any) of the people rushing the congress.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:16 am

In my opinion the associations only don't react on FISTF's matter, because they don't think that they can have any influence. The only influence they seem to be aware that it is useful is the call for EGM.
The problem is very old too, but nothing happened in the past to solve it. In my opinion the representatives or feedbacks of the associations have to be taken in "danger". Finally the problem in FISTF and also in real life is that people who get elected claim for themselves to represent in every decision the majority of the voters (even if all those people finally are voted by a minority of the total).
In my opinion the FISTF Board is only elected for a few things.

1. Administration
The board has to look after the administration in FISTF, but what exactly has to be realized should be decided in every single case by the members of FISTF. The problem is that members are boards of associations so you will only get the opinion of 5 or 6 people in the national boards. That's not enough in my opinion.
Of course the administrative work also has to be done by the board or commissions.
Some people think that commissions are the solution to include more people in FISTF's work and out of that automatically more people are interested in FISTF, I think there must be a better solution possible.
There must be guidelines where the FISTF Board has to make the proposals only and where it is possible that also the members can make proposals. The proposals for membership fees or tournament taxes in my opinion should only be done by the FISTF Board, and the members should vote about it (it is the most normal thing in the world, that nobody wants to pay tournament taxes or membership fees, but they are needed). In the past there wasn't defined what should be done with a proposal sent by an association? In most cases I'm sure that only the board of FISTF took a decision about the proposal, which is total nonsense in my opinion.
We need a system, where every member in the associations will be asked about the proposal of another association. If an association wants to make a proposal for a change it should first be voted internally, if the majority agrees on the proposal it should be sent to FISTF, if not FISTF shouldn't even get that proposal.
I know it sounds like from Fantasia, and I'm sure at the beginning it would create more troubles than it would solve the problems, but I'm sure that after some time we will see the advantages of such a system. Every single member of the associations will have the right to vote, every single member of the associations will be informed about every single proposal from their own or the other associations. That would be the kind of communication we need in FISTF in my opinion. That would be the kind of transperency we need in FISTF.
In best case the board of the association needs to discuss with its members about a proposal, which also would mean better communication inside the associations (even if it could cause some troubles in some associations to talk more to each other)
It is only an idea of me, I know there will be many people who have to say something against it, in my opinion I think about solutions for the problems at least while others only say "Yes" or "No".

2. Development of the sport/game
A FISTF Board is responsible for the world wide development. Subbuteo is a good example, that should be done by the FISTF Board itself. The regional promotion has to be done in cooperation between the association and the FISTF Board.
The FISTF Board should also be responsible to help new associations organizing their first events, give them a kind of "road map".

3. Standards
Finally a FISTF Board needs to define standards for all tournaments under the banner of FISTF. The FISTF Board needs to take care that the tournaments are played with the correct system, the same rules and the correct material.

Finally I don't think that teams for FISTF elections are the right way. We are not "mature" enough to use only the skills of somebody undependent of the personal relationship, so most would take the one who is more liked on a personal level, that shouldn't happen. A president who don't like somebody on a personal level who can do positive things for FISTF on the other side shouldn't even think about it to be candidate. If a president doesn't like somebody on a personal level, that shouldn't have any inluence. If the director has a problem with the president and gets elected he should immediately resign, if he isn't able to see the priority in working for tablesoccer.

It is of course my personal opinion as always Cool

Heinz

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  mikeburns on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:47 pm

Lorenzo wrote:

Its difficult to judge with any precision, since we know nothing about the plans (if any) of the people rushing the congress.

There are no plans! That is why Horta fell out with me and deleted me from Facebook and everything! Shocked Laughing

I said to him you have no plan except to get rid of Garnier. I told him there has to be some other plan of who you want on the board etc, have some direction. Horta wasnt forthcoming with any information which makes me believe there is no plan.

it will be a case of, "we've got rid of Garnier, what now..., oh shit, we dont know what we're doing!"

i dont think there's been any thought of what happens post-Garnier.

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Lorenzo on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:46 pm

Heinz, I think that you and Vesa have too fancy a vision. A better involvement of the national federations would be nice and the idea of holding referenda over decisions of capital importance deserves consideration. In our present predicament, however, we just need a small number of responsible, hard-working individuals, grown up to the point of discerning their duty to the movement from their personal anthipaties, with the aim of saving FISTF from dissolution, forming a stable board and undertaking some straightforward reforms.

In an ideal world resentments should play no part among directors, but since down-to-earth they do and are in fact tearing the movement apart, we need to make an end to it. Elections by list is a simple, unfussy way to do it.


>>> I'm afraid that also here people are not ready for any new unorthodox methods, even though the old ones are just ruining everything

>>> There are no plans!


Thats what I mean by ‘war of the buttons’.

Janus, Thossa, Vincent and all those behind the request for a congress, if you have any programme, its high time to disclose it. If not, please just tell us plainly that you havn’t.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:55 am

As far as I understand/understood the situation of the last 2 years, it wasn't enough anymore only to work hard for FISTF some hours every day.
The problem was that the FISTF Boards worked "seperated" from the rest of the community (its members).
Do you really want to say that Vincent didn't work hard for FISTF every day?
Do you really want to say that Stefano didn't work hard for FISTF every day?
I even wouldn't say that Laurent or Piero didn't work hard for FISTF.

You ciritizize those people who said already last year, that Laurent shouldn't be president of FISTF because of a passus in the statutes, it was even discussed here how to solve that situation (only new elections).
They are the warriors of buttons? It is questionable for me to critizize people for telling their opinion and even look for a solution of a problem. Maybe you should critizize those who ignored such discussions? Official requests regarding that "problem" were ignored too.

What should be the change if we act according on your idea? Nearly all people who worked for FISTF lost nothing but the respect of people in the last 2 years. When we (the warriors of buttons) said in 2010 that it is dangerous to start that way of acting, people laughed at us, changing the direction of FISTF couldn't happen too fast. Vincent was voted out in january, 8 months later a Congress could have brought the same result. Maybe then the work in FISTF would be more respected generally?

It is the disrespect for those people who work hard (but in the opinion of many people the wrong way) which brings us closer and closer to the final point. You won't solve the problem when you find 6 other people who can be disrespected by the members and people after some time.
The associations are only sitting and looking at it till a point is reached, then they call for an EGM like they learnt in 2010. None of them is thinking pre-emptively.
Again and again we are doing the same, some day the resources will have an end, then FISTF is dead. Then the discussion about the responsibility will start. Do we have to read then again "Warriors of buttons"?

That's why I think the basic system of FISTF needs to be changed. Maybe it takes some time and FISTF won't develop in that periode maybe, but I think no development can be better than throwing away our total resources by acting always the same way. FISTF won't develop that way too, and additionally it will die some day.
My proposal would force the members to be more active. If they are not willed, it doesn't make any sense anyway to keep FISTF alive, then we possibly need a player's or club's association on international level too, but as long as there is a chance we should fight for the actually existing FISTF. We can't/shouldn't be so silly to throw away our history every 20 years and start a new history!

Heinz

Lorenzo wrote:Heinz, I think that you and Vesa have too fancy a vision. A better involvement of the national federations would be nice and the idea of holding referenda over decisions of capital importance deserves consideration. In our present predicament, however, we just need a small number of responsible, hard-working individuals, grown up to the point of discerning their duty to the movement from their personal anthipaties, with the aim of saving FISTF from dissolution, forming a stable board and undertaking some straightforward reforms.

In an ideal world resentments should play no part among directors, but since down-to-earth they do and are in fact tearing the movement apart, we need to make an end to it. Elections by list is a simple, unfussy way to do it.


>>> I'm afraid that also here people are not ready for any new unorthodox methods, even though the old ones are just ruining everything

>>> There are no plans!


Thats what I mean by ‘war of the buttons’.

Janus, Thossa, Vincent and all those behind the request for a congress, if you have any programme, its high time to disclose it. If not, please just tell us plainly that you havn’t.

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Thossa on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:19 pm

Hi Lorenzo,
nore Janus, neither me have a program of course, because we are not deep enough involve. We are just part of the german BoD (together with Marcus Tilgner, Fred & Thomas Vulpes) and the interest of DSTFB is only to see FISTF running in a right, correct direction. We learned out of the past, our purchase is limited. So far we are nothing more than one of twelve. But I know about people that are ready to work together for FISTF. As soon as they publish their candidature, we will see what they offer. In my opinion we can only wish us all "good luck" for the future.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:53 pm

I don't think a new Board will make a revolution in rules but a few points seem important to me:
- we need a Board made of people who are HONEST and HARD-WORKERS.
- money should be spent for the players, not for useless meetings and plane tickets. So much money was wasted for meetings in the last 2-3 years. For what? Give me only one positive and constructive change that came out of these meetings. Can you find any?
- bring back Challengers and Futures because FISTF has become the "federation of elite players" whil the former Boards had worked to create a circuit for weaker players. In many tournaments the number of entries is going down just because the circuit is not attractive anymore for the weaker players. Some small nations have left FISTF. Either they have no international activity or they just prefer the WASPA circuit (Canada, Australia, South Africa,...)
- work on communication. News should go to the players (newsletter,...), it's not to the players to search for info (visiting a website).
- less administrative duties for nations, organizers and players. More flexibility in the paperwork!

That's just my opinion though.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:20 pm

Heinz, in the last couple years mischief has been due to two factors:

1. the war of the buttons, pushing half of the community to boycott everything that was done by the other half. Better communication would do no good. Whats the purpose of spreading one’s ideas, if half of the community is manoeuvred into booing them down indipendently from their merits?

2. The bizarre electoral system, which among many other evils brought about a lack of hard-working people. For example, Garnier and Kutroumanos forced their way in Piero’s board by their voting power and disappeared the next day. While Stefano worked hard and Piero wasn’t idle, they were effectively running a two-men board. They could hardly manage the load.

These are the issues that need to be addressed. Frankly, I don’t think that going to new elections with the old statutes and no preemptive agreement with Italy and the other federations half-supporting Garnier is the right way.

Vincent, there must be some way to appease the needs of players of different skill. What about replacing the veterans with an amateur category, and integrating WASPA (and eventually part of the oldist movement) into it?
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Admin on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:37 pm

Why should we integrate WASPA now? For many years I made proposals going in the direction of getting weaker players involved. Not only most ideas were not accepted by people who are unable to have a large vision of things but once the current Board has removed Challengers and Futures ("because it doesn't stick to the image of what FISTF would love to have") and now that WASPA is growing much more than expected (I believe many people thought it would never work), it should be part of something that is dying?

Lorenzo, do you know what the word "respect" means?

As I said many times, I'm ready to help FISTF but if I have to choose between FISTF and WASPA, I will choose WASPA.
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:59 am

Lorenzo wrote:Janus, Thossa, Vincent and all those behind the request for a congress, if you have any programme, its high time to disclose it. If not, please just tell us plainly that you havn’t.

To be honest it's neither me nor Thossa being directly behind the request. We support the request but mainly due to the fact to get a legitimate board. This was always our request since Laurent took over the power in FISTF.
My aim was (and is) not to "destroy" the current board but only to legitimate it. The board did a good job and even the "war of buttons" seemed to be finished. The collapse of the current board was never my aim.

On the other side the collapse clearly showed what happens if a random "bunch" of people tries to work together. I think it would help us all if we would accept list elections.

But what makes me currently really angry is the fact that Laurent in his answer to the nations
a) postpone the EGM to Paris on 2nd February
b) points out he is only willing to discuss about statutes
c) does not accept new elections on that date
d) claims to decide about statutes of 2008. A version I have never seen before. I expressly say I didn't see it before. I don't say that this version is not valid or so.

He is just spreading confusion. But I think it is what he wants .....
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Thossa on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:26 am

Janus_Gersie wrote:The board did a good job.....

Mmmmh.

Luís did a good job for the BoD ...

... and whitewash a lot...

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:13 pm

Now one month further we can assume: nothing really happened meanwhile. That's bad.

On the other side Laurent at least published an unbelievable agenda for the EGM. One hour discussion about new statutes ! I don't understand why we should rubberstamp new statutes at the current stage of development. Makes no sense ! We should cancel this topic.

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Admin on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:48 pm

Only one thing is possible: the new statutes are sent to all association 2 weeks in advance and nations have the possibility to vote for or against these statutes (even by e-mail, fax or phone).
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:47 am

By the way: which nations will be present in Paris for the EGM ?

Germany will be present ......
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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:17 pm

Austria too

Janus_Gersie wrote:By the way: which nations will be present in Paris for the EGM ?

Germany will be present ......

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Re: Garnier convocates a congress in Paris!

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