10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Thossa on Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:48 pm

kechris wrote:Do you know that he changed the referees for the matches of his team?
Do you know that he changed the programm and his team the sunday played the 4 matches in the same four tables?

I thought Antonello Rodriguez was as FISTF Sports Director there. DidnĀ“t he lead the tournament management? If not, no wonder why the program can be manipulated. But than I asked myself, what was his role in Athens?
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:12 am

where was antonello rodrigues?
in Athens?
Maybe
But no in hall of Europa cups...
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:19 am

Results are available ? Didn't find them on the CL/EL page nor on the FISTF site.

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:29 am

Hi Kostas,
as far as I can see the situation around Papakonstantinou he was sentenced on 5th of september but he appealed against the decision.
If you know the final decision you know more than the website of FISTF, which easily can happen nowadays Cool

What board signed a letter to keep you out of the venue of the CL/EL? The greek board or the FISTF Board?

If it is true that Atlas had entrance to the venue, while all other times didn't have entrance, it only shows the character of some people, I don't wonder about such situations anymore.

In my opinion some people of the current board should be brought to the DC of FISTF, but that's really only my personal opinion.

Heinz

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:53 am

Heinz Eder wrote:In my opinion some people of the current board should be brought to the DC of FISTF, but that's really only my personal opinion.

Great idea. Would have my full support. But unfortunately we don't have any legal basis for that ! Neither in the statutes nor in the DC statutes!
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Admin on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:57 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:Results are available ? Didn't find them on the CL/EL page nor on the FISTF site.
Even the results of the Major of Athens are not yet available!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Admin on Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:59 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:If it is true that Atlas had entrance to the venue, while all other times didn't have entrance, it only shows the character of some people, I don't wonder about such situations anymore.
It is confirmed by Italians on the italian forum.

Heinz Eder wrote:In my opinion some people of the current board should be brought to the DC of FISTF, but that's really only my personal opinion.
Definately!
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:51 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Hi Kostas,
as far as I can see the situation around Papakonstantinou he was sentenced on 5th of september but he appealed against the decision.
If you know the final decision you know more than the website of FISTF, which easily can happen nowadays Cool

NO HEINZ. I DON'T KNOW THE FINAL DECISION. I KNOW THAT LAST YEAR IN GORIZZA HE WAS ALSO BANNED BUT HE WAS PRESENT AMONG THE TABLES.

What board signed a letter to keep you out of the venue of the CL/EL? The greek board or the FISTF Board?

NONE REAL BOARD AS I INFORMED TODAY. I TOOK SATURDAY AFTERNOON BY KOUTROUMANOS' WIFE (LAWYER) A PAPER WITH KOUTROUMANOS' SIGNATURE THAT ALL THE GREEK BOD AGREED TO DON'T ENTER ME IN HALL. BUT ONE MEMBER RESIGNED YESTERDAY AND HE WROTE THAT NEVER TOOK THIS DECISION.

If it is true that Atlas had entrance to the venue, while all other times didn't have entrance, it only shows the character of some people, I don't wonder about such situations anymore.

UNFORTUNATELY IS TRUE. AND UNFORTUNATELY I CONTINUE TO WONDER.

In my opinion some people of the current board should be brought to the DC of FISTF, but that's really only my personal opinion.

NO COMMENTS.
Heinz
[u]


Last edited by kechris on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:53 pm

Admin wrote:
Janus_Gersie wrote:Results are available ? Didn't find them on the CL/EL page nor on the FISTF site.
Even the results of the Major of Athens are not yet available!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

special thanks to leo...

i know that Freddie took the results of major.
no the real results but who care?
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Thossa on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:02 am

kechris wrote:i know that Freddie took the results of major.
no the real results but who care?

Could you please explain what you mean in details, not in vague understanding
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:21 am

Thossa wrote:
kechris wrote:i know that Freddie took the results of major.
no the real results but who care?

Could you please explain what you mean in details, not in vague understanding

it is so simple Thossa. The results from your ex partners were not real. They sent lies. But you prefer believe them than me.
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Thossa on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:27 am

Ex Partner? Is who?
And where are the proofs?
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:48 am

kechris wrote:
NO HEINZ. I DON'T KNOW THE FINAL DECISION. I KNOW THAT LAST YEAR IN GORIZZA HE WAS ALSO BANNED BUT HE WAS PRESENT AMONG THE TABLES.
As long as he doesn't play, I don't see a problem in being present. I don't know why it took so much time to take a final decision, the appeal against the decision should be made till 5th of october.

kechris wrote:
NONE REAL BOARD AS I INFORMED TODAY. I TOOK SATURDAY AFTERNOON BY KOUTROUMANOS' WIFE (LAWYER) A PAPER WITH KOUTROUMANOS' SIGNATURE THAT ALL THE GREEK BOD AGREED TO DON'T ENTER ME IN HALL. BUT ONE MEMBER RESIGNED YESTERDAY AND HE WROTE THAT NEVER TOOK THIS DECISION.

Kostas honestly I would give that to FISTF DC and let them do some work, would be an interesting case, because according on the regulations of DC, a member association can be sanctioned and they represent a member association. At least I would try it, what should happen?

kechris wrote:
NO COMMENTS.

I have to mark that in my calender, Kostas Kechris doesn't comment something Razz

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:55 am

kechris wrote:
Thossa wrote:
kechris wrote:i know that Freddie took the results of major.
no the real results but who care?

Could you please explain what you mean in details, not in vague understanding

it is so simple Thossa. The results from your ex partners were not real. They sent lies. But you prefer believe them than me.

Things like that didn't only happen since yesterday. Honestly, who should control that, Kostas. That will always be a problem, there is a point where you need to trust on honesty of the people. If you can proof it that something went wrong at the Major of Greece, send it to the DC too. FISTF DC should be an instrument used exactly for those things, not only for bad behaviour of players.
The expression Ex-Partner I can't sign too, but I don't want to start an old discussion again. You can't look back on a situation 2 or 3 years ago. It is clear that we know more now that 3 years ago.

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:35 pm

Heinz Eder wrote: Honestly, who should control that, Kostas. That will always be a problem, there is a point where you need to trust on honesty of the people.

sorry but if you select a honest for partner it is more possible to have real results. But if you select a political who use diplomacy for his relations so is MORE possible to have a unfair partner.
Many times people select partners for their compliments and ban people who telling the truth with strong way.

Heinz Eder wrote:I have to mark that in my calender, Kostas Kechris doesn't comment something Razz

I cann't yet mark my calendar for you...

p.s Yesterday one more member of greek BoD retired. The second after Europa cups.
And today Koutroul also retired by FISTF BoD and Greek Bod. The third. And one moth before one more member retired. Four absent.
Greece is without BoD today. And FISTF the same condition. All retired.
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:38 pm

Never mind Kostas, I'm not motivated to get marked in your calender. Very Happy
The argument of politic is always useful. Cool

Is it true that Reggiana stopped playing in half-final because of problems?

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:46 pm

Thossa wrote:
And where are the proofs?

what kind of proofs?
how i can prove that a player or a team didn't take part in a tournament?
when i sent mails in past to your BoD you believe your partner.
after i stopped
in last major a team didn't took part but i saw the results with this team
and a player took part without license but in results his name in results was changed by other name of player with license !
Last year the same happened. Freddie maybe remember because he deleted the points of fake results by world ranking.
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  kechris on Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:58 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Never mind Kostas, I'm not motivated to get marked in your calender. Very Happy
The argument of politic is always useful. Cool

Is it true that Reggiana stopped playing in half-final because of problems?

Heinz

i like your new humor Heinz. The ex was so boring.

I haven't full info for semifinal. I know that the last seconds an italian player block a moving ball the attacker Vasco didn't stopped when the ref said "FREEKICK" and after two flicks scored without the italian player block or to handle his keeper because he waiting to hear "advantage" or because he wanted to spend the last five seconds. They asked one of head refferees and he said "goal".
After Flores did a show...
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:04 pm

Thx for the compliment and clearification Kostas.

Have a nice evening
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  von K. on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:52 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
Is it true that Reggiana stopped playing in half-final because of problems?

There is a lot of info about this in italian forum. The problem is that there are at least 3 versions of the events.

It seems Reggiana's player Jack Giulianini, who the italians regard as one of the most correct players in Italy, stopped playing because he thought Vasco Guimaraes, also regarded as a fair player in Italy, decided to take the free kick with only 10 seconds remaining. However Guimaraes didn't take the free kick and continued (he says he said it twice, but Giulianini was already celebrating/talking to someone) and scored with 2 flicks.

What followed seems to be the most disturbing thing. The players know each other well, since 20 years, and according to Giulianini they agreed with the referee (Rasmus Lund, who had already disallowed the goal, I understand) that thay will continue with extra time. According to the evidence by many it seems Papakonstantinou went berserk and started yelling after the head referee (Pascal Scheen?) and "twisted" his arm to allow the goal for his team. And this is what then happened. Giulianini described this as the most nonsense experience in his subbuteistical career.

It's also reported (by De Francesco) that Papakonstantinou used absurd violence on Saturday when throwing out Kostas from the hall (his crime being that he went into the hall... and of course that he is Kostas...), after which both of them were taken away by the police.

The reports suggested also that it was incredibly badly organised for a CL/EL and that on Saturday morning the greek teams were in the hall practicing while others were locked outside, and on Sunday morning only Atlas (Papako's team) was inside practicing while others were locked outside, and that Atlas changed the programme so that they could play all the time at the same tables, and that they also changed and tried to change referees (their friends Lions' for the final if I'm not mistaken) to favour them.

As a consequence some italians have voiced an opinion that there is little idea travelling abroad when things are done like that, and Carlos Flores has written that he will never again play a tournament in Greece.

All of the above is taken from the italian forum.

All in all a nice nail into the coffin of FISTF... And why not also the international tournaments in Greece...


Last edited by von K. on Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  drastis on Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:35 pm

When, for so many years, I was shouting from here that Greek Table Football lives under terrorism, nobody paid attention. What foreigners experienced during the EL/CL is a common every-day situation for greek players for the last four years under Koutroumanos regime. But, with the help of people like de Francesco and Capponi, they even allowed Koutroumanos to become member of FISTF BoD!

I am afraid nobody has the right to accuse greek players for this, we have been struggling against the situation for many years, but unfortunately people with influence in FISTF have convicted us to not be able to get rid of the "president" and his followers.

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  Thossa on Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:41 pm

von K. wrote:Carlos Flores has written that he will never again play a tournament in Greece.

Guess why no qualified team from Germany (Hitdorf, Schwalbach, Rain) wanted to play these event...

BTW: It is funny to see on facebook no critically comments lol!
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  georgy on Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:36 pm

I am not writing here in order to "defend" anyone. I just write because truth is better than rumors/stories. And also it is ALWAYS better before having an opinion, to listen to BOTH sides!!!

I write this because Vesa just copied here ONE of the interpretation of what happened.
I was there unlike anyone else here who commented, and because Lund is a personal friend of mine (actually we Olympia had the pleasure of inviting his team in our "place" on Friday in order to play some friendly games, because we have the same tables which were used in EL/CL)
I asked him to describe the whole "situation".

I think it would be better to ask him before coming to a conclusion. The final decision was by Scheen who was one of the head referees. Everything is very clear.
If the decision was different then Atlas would have felt that it was an unfair one. Rasmus did not disallow the goal Vesa.
In my opinion both players were not 100% fair. The italian tried to spend the time in order for the game to end, and Vasco did not say very clearly what he wanted to do. At least according to Lund.
I think that since they had to take a decision, they took the most fair one.

About the tables, I do not find this so bad. The home teams should have (let's say) an advantage to choose their tables.
About the referees the problem was that teams from other countries did not come to Greece, so there were many Italian and Greek teams. They delayed the semifinal in order not to have Lions (which is correct!) as refs. If teams from around Europe had come (as Greek teams do!!!) then there would not be any problem.

I do not know if it was a good or bad CL/EL. Personally I would have liked to have more games per team, and this was my main objection!!
But on the other hand I did not like at all that once more Greece was treated by Europeans as the "poor relative".
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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:31 pm

George, I just reported what was written in italian forum. Many there were also present. So it's words against others. Interpretations against others. But the bottom line is that it wasn't pretty and it wasn't good advertisement for TF, not mentioning what neutral outsiders would have thought about the actions of Papako against Kechris.

georgy wrote:
About the tables, I do not find this so bad. The home teams should have (let's say) an advantage to choose their tables.

Whether or not this would be correct (I think the rank nr 1 should have this advantage), this is not the case according to the handbook. And it's definitely not correct to change after it has once been decided in the draw, if this, as I understood, happened.

Was Atlas the home team (and them alone)? How come? I genuinely don't know, because I've understood that Koutroumanos is not Atlas player.

georgy wrote:About the referees the problem was that teams from other countries did not come to Greece, so there were many Italian and Greek teams. They delayed the semifinal in order not to have Lions (which is correct!) as refs. If teams from around Europe had come (as Greek teams do!!!) then there would not be any problem.

According to what I read Lions were not originally the referees, but instead they were changed to be the referees. I haven't seen any official documents, results or anything yet, so it's just rumours from all people.

georgy wrote:I do not know if it was a good or bad CL/EL. Personally I would have liked to have more games per team, and this was my main objection!!
But on the other hand I did not like at all that once more Greece was treated by Europeans as the "poor relative".

Honestly George, do you really think, if you think of it objectively and not subjectively, people want to travel to tournaments were it's always reported problems and even violence (you can probably blame Papako for this, not foreigners, I've seen him personally in a meeting lose his control almost totally because of a very small thing). Would you really travel to such tournaments or countries yourself? I don't know about the past, but what has happened in recent years is not the fault of the foreigners (FISTF maybe in small part, but not the players), and it makes Greece look like the poor, violent etc relative. I'm sorry for the players like you, Aggelinas brothers, Beis etc, but you can't really blame foreigners here. I also think Flores has seen so much at the green tables, that it takes a lot for him to write what he wrote.

And if you think of what happened to your club Olympia a while ago, and that you applied for a membership of our finnish association in order to be able to play, then you really can't wonder why people have their doubts over the greek competitions. You reap what you sow. (not you personally, or the other good greek players)

I understand your frustration and it's a pity it has come to this for Greece, but blaming foreigners is not the correct way of dealing with it. You know yourself that at least 3 persons (+Koutrou) from the greek BoD resigned after the tournament. Maybe it's a coincidence, but it says a lot about the problems in Greece.

All of the above opinions from a neutral's point of view (you know that I have only objected to the greek tournaments that were given to Greece in recent years illegally or with obvious conflicting interests). My interest in reporting what was written in the italian forum was to report their views here to the people who don't read italian. After reading many pages of conversation I compiled it in a way which seemed to follow the interpretation of things from the majority of writers.

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Re: 10 teams from Italy at the CL/EC

Post  drastis on Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:46 pm

von K. wrote:You reap what you sow.
Exclamation

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