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FISTF forum

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:09 pm

Is it me or the FISTF forum doesn't interest anyone? (29 messages in 54 days)

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Lorenzo on Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:16 pm

Things don’t look much better here, my friend Rolling Eyes

Looks like the war of the buttons is over and the kids lost the excitement they felt in their keyboard struggle.

Straight from the shoulder, I see in this a confirmation of Stefano’s views… lots of belligerent words but precious little work. Especially now that you are no longer interested in managing the bulk of the work, the will to contribute to FISTF’s future seems to be fading quickly.

“A pensar male si fa peccato, ma spesso ci si azzecca” – Giulio Andreotti Twisted Evil
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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Admin on Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:24 pm

I believe the cause is lost anyway. Look at the International Flick: a terrible newsletter but the Board is going to present like a "wonderful newsletter". What the Board is doing is really shit. Speaking about removing Futures & Challengers, organising a "big tournament" in Paris in April (where nobody has ever received an invitation anyway), organising a survey with meaningless results (as long as the perceentage of answering clubs is meaningless, the results are meaningless. The questions were already meaningless anyway), having a WC in Manchester (we all guess what is the only real reason for that). Sorry but there is no future for the game as long as THIS BOARD is in charge but everybody is tired of wars and many people are leaving the sinking boat. That's the reason why forums are so calm...

Watching tournaments from another point of view (the point of view of someone who has lost the faith) makes me believe it's just a stupid hobby where people who failed to become football players think they can become "somebody" by winning. But those who are there to win forget that most players only want to have fun. And right now I don't see how a newcomer could have fun being is part of this ridiculous circus.

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  von K. on Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:24 am

Caro Lorenzo, if you are referring to me (among others), I can say that I was willing to put countless hours in getting FISTF working again on a healthier base. However, I'm no longer willing to spend my time for a federation that has not the faintest idea of what the last 2 years have been about, has illegal BoD etc. I have to say that this largely the consequence of FISTF not following it's own rules. Also the untruths and direct lies, along with complete lack of respect for many members has been key.

It has become quite clear to me that it's futile and total waste of time. A small amateur federation can never work if the rules are manipulated and disregarded, while the members are disrespected. Spending time writing on forums makes no difference whatever you write, as we all have seen in the last 2 years. And when there is no credible project to help (no one has asked), should we maybe start begging mr. Garnier and co to let us do the work?

It's very difficult to understand how you can blame people who write important things when it's quite clear that FISTF is hijacked by others. If you have rules that are not followed, are the people demanding them to be followed to blame? Of course not. And the trust towards the wrongdoers flies out the window that very moment they go around the rules or break clear promises.

So you can address the blame to the people in charge after Frankfurt. No one else.

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:36 pm

Maybe it is a bit of sarcasm and for me difficult to say the right way, but I honestly hope that if the people are at least ignoring FISTF they maybe will at least concentrate more on their national association.
Personally I stopped saying things, because it is not worth to think about different issues if nobdoy is ready to discuss with you.
For an example I wrote my impressions of the consolation tournament after the Grand Prix of Austria to the sports department, where i critizized the consolation tournament in special circumstances based on facts, but I never got any reply on it.
Anyway I'm sure but hopefully wrong that we are coming to a point where there will be a total lack of people who are interested to work for FISTF and then the real problem will start.
Even if Laurent is more active now as it seems, I think that the associations are very critical about the situation how he becomes president, it could be so easy to get the legitimation of the associations currently, because there is nobody else who wants to do the job anyway.
The anniversary of FISTF could be something nice to invite nations, i wouldn't care if it would be in Paris or somewhere else, but if the invitation will be sent 2 weeks before the event, it will be a very exclusive birthday party.


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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:23 pm

Admin wrote:I believe the cause is lost anyway

Well, I think the cause is no more lost or accomplished than it was a couple years ago (and that probably means it is lost), and forums presently are no quieter than they were at the time.

I am just sorry to see you so embittered, my friend – that’s the most penible upshot of the war of the buttons. May I give you a provocative piece of advice? Take example from Italians – don’t take anything too seriously, regard life as a con game – make peace with your foes (all of whom have an excellent opinion of you, even more so since they experienced on their own skin how difficult it is to manage FISTF constructively) and enjoy leading our association again! Smile

For the sake of discussion, what do you think should be done in order to interest newcomers? In Italy most people looking for undemanding fun play old subbuteo, which is steadily growing; Those interested in agonistic performance come to us. Unfortunately, many oldists hate table soccer as a mean to assuage their inferiority complex; The gaming community is split in two blocs, estranged and at odds with each other.

As a personal note, I played my first game ever against Efrem Intra seven years ago. The realization of the huge work I had in front of me to become even a passable player, the idea of the long years of struggle and training necessary to improve, aroused my enthusiasm and drew me into the sport. It is difficult for me to grasp what people ever find in cheap entertainment.
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Re: FISTF forum

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:12 pm

Lorenzo wrote:Take example from Italians – don’t take anything too seriously, regard life as a con game – make peace with your foes (all of whom have an excellent opinion of you, even more so since they experienced on their own skin how difficult it is to manage FISTF constructively) and enjoy leading our association again! Smile

It regards Vincent, I know. But I'll comment anyway, like in the good old button war times Wink

The fundamental problem (at least 1 of them) lies in this entertainingly provocative advice. The lack of knowledge and understanding of other cultures. Some things are acceptable in some cultures, while in others such things are hard to forgive, let alone accept. This is why following general rules is so important. No international community can find common ways to do things, if there are no general rules everyone follows.

Lorenzo wrote:In Italy most people looking for undemanding fun play old subbuteo, which is steadily growing; Those interested in agonistic performance come to us. Unfortunately, many oldists hate table soccer as a mean to assuage their inferiority complex; The gaming community is split in two blocs, estranged and at odds with each other.

I don't understand why people should have to choose a different game depending on the level of agonism. There are not many sports or games which you can't play as a hobby. Old Subbuteo is also about so many other things than just playing, so it's in many cases not comparable.

I would also be very careful using such words as inferiority complex, when we can all (who read or speak italian) find out that they have no problem at all with self esteem. The "hatred" (I'd say contempt) of some (not so many, in the end) seems to come from very different things, as far as I've heard. For example they just don't want to play a sport, but have a hobby, and most definitely they didn't like the attempts to force the community to play a sport (long time ago).

Both games can co exist and many italians play both, too. In here most old players would not play the game at all, if they didn't play old (finnish) style, but some of them play occasionally also TF. And some play both equally (they answer to a different need, and are different games).

I agree that there are too many blocks. But that's just the outcome of the personalities being in charge and making that happen. There is no real reason for it. If Subbuteo and all its variations (FISTF game, too) would be regarded important by everyone, it would be better for everyone. Because many people change or play both, and at least it would be better numbers to attract interest and media. For example by organising bigger international Subbuteo happenings, where people could see the different versions, and meet people who share the same core interest. But it's wishful thinking, I know.

Lorenzo wrote:It is difficult for me to grasp what people ever find in cheap entertainment.

Why would a nice hobby be cheap entertainment? Just because it's not taken with deadly seriousenss, doesn't mean it's cheap entertainment. For the sake of argument I'd counter you by asking, why should such small amateur game be taken so seriously? I have to question why a game of few players has to be played fighting like schoolboys? (I know why, but it's still a valid question.)

If I have a real sport I play, do I then have to give up TF, and change to old, because I have'nt got time to play TF so agonistically. For many people outsiode the top players, TF is not the only sport or hobby. And people also play other games in smaller scale. TF is just so small, that if there is to be international activity, it will inevitably be based on hobby players. But hobby players are the base on which to build something more. It has been the same in many sports, they have been played at schools etc, and developed from there.

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:19 pm

There are extremely many things going wrong. I could speak for hours but should I? Yesterday I was blamed because I don't publish news on the belgian blog faster... I answered sometimes it's hard to get results of tournaments. For instance I know Sébastien Scheen won the GP of Scotland but what about the other results? There were many posts about the GP of Scotland on different forums but when it comes to let people know about results, I can't see anything. I believe that's one of the things to be changed in FISTF but for the moment the Board is totally unable to concentrate on priorities. Projects such as the "training centers" should in no way be a priority...

Another big problem is to keep players interested or to motivate new players. Sometimes I have the feeling that if a newcomer isn't motivated enough to becomùe a future "king of table soccer", he'd better give up. Not everyone is made to practice every day for hours, travel to tournaments at the other corner of Europe, to buy expensive material. We forget it's all about a game and people just want to play. How can we motivate people to go to tournaments of they might play only 2 games? I saw unbelievebla things at the Major of Frameries. The organizer had the bright idea to oranize groups of 5 and thos who complained about it were those who, despite having played 4 games, ended 3rd in their groupe and said "it's not good that only 2 players qualify from the group stage". Sorry but this is totally ridiculous. Is it better to have 100% of players playing at least 4 games or having 33% of players playing only 2 games and another 33% playing only 3 games?

As I said before, I could speak for hours but I believe the cause is lost. When you have a president who says:
- he wants to remove Satellites, Challengers, Futures;
- he will organize a huge event in Paris in April (not a Major, not a GP,...) just because "he thinks it's cool" I have no problem with such a tournament as long as it's out of the FISTF circuit);
- he concentrates on "priorities" that are so far away from the reality;
I just won't waste my time anymore for this game.

I'm also involved in other sports, in particular cycling, and every day I can add points to my list of "why cycling is a sport and why table football will NEVER be a sport".

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:05 pm

von K. wrote:Both games can co exist and many italians play both, too. In here most old players would not play the game at all, if they didn't play old (finnish) style, but some of them play occasionally also TF. And some play both equally (they answer to a different need, and are different games).

This is exactly what our "downsizing" was about in Germany in the 90's. We lost almost all "old" players because DSTFB was not able to give all players a platform. We forgot there is more than "black" or "white". We frustrated the old players by telling them that only TF rules were allowed etc. We lost so many players and good guys ... we are still suffering on that fact!
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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:57 am

von K. wrote:Why would a nice hobby be cheap entertainment? Just because it's not taken with deadly seriousenss, doesn't mean it's cheap entertainment. For the sake of argument I'd counter you by asking, why should such small amateur game be taken so seriously?

You are right Vesa: all standpoints are equally arbitrary and relative, and Vincent’s years-long engagement to ensure FISTF’s survival, or Stefano’s attempt to save the hobby from extinction by growing it into a sport, are no more worth than the passing glance an oldist player affords to his childhood toys.

As a side note, rules and statutes are no less arbitrary and relative than any other value assessment: they merely define a status quo. Your own mythology of government by the law is no different from our homely subbuteo myths: "Subbuteo La Leggenda", and so be it.

von K. wrote:Both games can co exist and many italians play both, too. In here most old players would not play the game at all, if they didn't play old (finnish) style, but some of them play occasionally also TF. And some play both equally (they answer to a different need, and are different games).

That’s right – since numbers are important, even oldist players might possibly be useful to the cause. That was the whole point underlying Stefano’s attempt to integrate them in the Italian federation a few years ago. Unfortunately, Stefano has a habit of bluntness, and he vastly overestimated this rabble’s willingness to assume any engagement on the hobby’s behalf.
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Re: FISTF forum

Post  von K. on Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:00 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:Why would a nice hobby be cheap entertainment? Just because it's not taken with deadly seriousenss, doesn't mean it's cheap entertainment. For the sake of argument I'd counter you by asking, why should such small amateur game be taken so seriously?

You are right Vesa: all standpoints are equally arbitrary and relative, and Vincent’s years-long engagement to ensure FISTF’s survival, or Stefano’s attempt to save the hobby from extinction by growing it into a sport, are no more worth than the passing glance an oldist player affords to his childhood toys.

You read my post like a devil reads the bible. If you wish to make it nihilism it's fine, but I don't see that it has anything really to do with the point of what I wrote (and you previously).

Lorenzo wrote:As a side note, rules and statutes are no less arbitrary and relative than any other value assessment: they merely define a status quo. Your own mythology of government by the law is no different from our homely subbuteo myths: "Subbuteo La Leggenda", and so be it.

Rules and statutes may well be arbitrary and relative, but they are the only way to find common ground. They can evolve, naturally, if the community decides so, but the community has to want that, and until the evolvement they have to be followed, and after the evolvement the new ones have to be followed. Otherwise it's called anarchy. The arbitrariness and relativeness, let alone the quality, of the rules has no bearing in this.

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:Both games can co exist and many italians play both, too. In here most old players would not play the game at all, if they didn't play old (finnish) style, but some of them play occasionally also TF. And some play both equally (they answer to a different need, and are different games).

That’s right – since numbers are important, even oldist players might possibly be useful to the cause. That was the whole point underlying Stefano’s attempt to integrate them in the Italian federation a few years ago. Unfortunately, Stefano has a habit of bluntness, and he vastly overestimated this rabble’s willingness to assume any engagement on the hobby’s behalf.

How long have you followed that scene to be able to call them rabble? And how well do you know the real reasons (based on hear say, or facts direct from the individuals)?

You also miss the main point of some of the top dogs in the italian oldist movement. They don't regard the game as larger than life, to be preserved for future generations by force. They see it as a game, which is good for those who like it, and nothing more. On the contrary the TF people in Italy see it as a sport which for some reason in underrated, but in fact is one of th best sports mankind has developed.

I can easily identify with a community which is approached (despite ancient feuds) by a blunt person only because he sees them in numbers, and wants to exploit that. As you wrote, even they (choice of words which gives you away, sadly) might be useful to the cause. Did anyone think for a second, why they would think the "cause" (whatever it is) might be useful for them? Apparently not. Their couse, as you should know, is not the cause of the TF. There could be a cause for both (TF has no divine right to claim supremacy over others, and expect them to surrender), but it can only be negotiated through respectful, tactful and compromising attitude. For some reason I think of same things that have been missing from FISTF and that have driven it to this sad state...

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:49 pm

I have always shunned broader speculations as I felt that forums should concentrate over operative issues. However, the forums being so quiet, we might as well start a debate over general topics. For our amusement only.

You read my post like a devil reads the bible.

I don’t. Either you implement value assessments or you don’t. In the latter case there is no standard to differentiate between hard work and laziness, deep involvement and superficiality.

Rules and statutes may well be arbitrary and relative, but they are the only way to find common ground. They can evolve, naturally, if the community decides so, but the community has to want that, and until the evolvement they have to be followed, and after the evolvement the new ones have to be followed. Otherwise it's called anarchy. The arbitrariness and relativeness, let alone the quality, of the rules has no bearing in this.

You are wrong. There is another way, as old as history, to work out a “common ground”, and that is force and revolution. Not just physical force, but inspired, charismatic leadership, breaking apart the shell of a system stiffened in repetitiveness, in the intent to craft a different legality -- to disclose new horizons.

That is often the case whenever a system does no longer respond well to outer challenges, as it is the case of FISTF today. The quality of the rules has everything to do with the fact that they can be adapted or should be wiped away. Stefano’s aim was to revolutionize FISTF as part of a last-ditch effort to save table soccer from extinction.

I don’t know whether or not the past Board disregarded any rule, but if it did, that was certainly not the reason for its demise. The real problems were 1) the derisive electoral system – which regrettably couldn’t be disregarded entirely – forcing the Italians to incorporate in the Board people who shouldn’t be there, and 2) the presence of Vincent, an individual as stubborn, strong-willed and full of connections as Stefano himself, apt to gather the dissentients and start an organized opposition. At all levels, leaders make history.

The one-sidedness of the metaphysics of consensus and compromise that have been impressed over you at school and in the university, is demonstrated by the big hit Stefano and Piero scored in the Greek quandary. Force and constrain swiftly unraveled a predicament which had been left unsolved by countless attempts to build an agreement among the quarreling sides.

You also miss the main point of some of the top dogs in the italian oldist movement. They don't regard the game as larger than life, to be preserved for future generations by force. They see it as a game, which is good for those who like it, and nothing more […] Did anyone think for a second, why they would think the "cause" (whatever it is) might be useful for them?

We come back to the issue of moral assessments. Well then, I like people who take their interests seriously and make something out of it. I spurn desultoriness. That’s a freely-chosen benchmark, as arbitrary as anything else. If you add to that the dim-witted, yet vociferous arrogance of so many oldist players (at least in Italy), affecting the superficiality of their approach and the abysmal level of their gameplay like a major reason for superiority (!), you will understand why I despise this rabble as much as they scorn table soccer.

There could be a cause for both (TF has no divine right to claim supremacy over others, and expect them to surrender), but it can only be negotiated through respectful, tactful and compromising attitude.

Dealing with the herd is always a matter of expediency. Respect and tactfulness may be useful tools tough – it may be that in the case of the oldist mob a subtler approach had yelded better results. I don’t know.
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Re: FISTF forum

Post  drastis on Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:15 pm

Lorenzo wrote:The one-sidedness of the metaphysics of consensus and compromise that have been impressed over you at school and in the university, is demonstrated by the big hit Stefano and Piero scored in the Greek quandary. Force and constrain swiftly unraveled a predicament which had been left unsolved by countless attempts to build an agreement among the quarreling sides.

I think I have answered this before Lorenzo, but as a veteran of the button wars I cannot leave this unanswered.

The intervention of SdF and Capponi in Greece was disastrous. What they actually managed was to kill the last few voices that kept shouting against an oppresive and corrupt system that still runs Greek table football. In case you have not heard, there are now incidents of physical violence in Greek tournament on top of verbal and psychological violence that was the frequent case before SdF's "successful" intervention last year. There is also a steady depreciation of the hobby in the eyes of the players in Greece, which reflects in the declining numbers of participants. A sad ending instead of a "solution" this was, for a beloved hobby which some of us - who are in our late forties - would like to see revived.

This last comment of mine is not meant to be racist, but I do not expect to have an answer or an apology from an Italian (too many Popes there).

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  Lorenzo on Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:30 pm

drastis wrote:
This last comment of mine is not meant to be racist, but I do not expect to have an answer or an apology from an Italian (too many Popes there).

Drastis, your comments are always welcomed, but since you don’t expect an answer, you won’t receive one.

As a side remark, I don’t mind racism in the least.
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Re: FISTF forum

Post  drastis on Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:46 am

Lorenzo wrote:
Drastis, your comments are always welcomed, but since you don’t expect an answer, you won’t receive one.

As a side remark, I don’t mind racism in the least.

Thanks for (not) answering. Of course you don't mind.

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Re: FISTF forum

Post  von K. on Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:20 am

Going back to the topic:

It really has taken off nicely! I'm having a hard time keeping track of all the conversations, ideas etc that have been written...

Shocked

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