Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:23 pm

Thossa, there is only one "Big L" and unfortunately Big L passed away a few years ago Sad


Probably the writers in this forum will be the reason for that failure and the bad bad internet...
You are right about it. Internet is our enemy Very Happy

Without Internet, the situation would be much worse now. Internet has been the game's best friend for years. I remember that thanks to the Internet I managed to get some players together in Connectcitu about 10 years ago. Some of them were Jim Taylor (who later attended 2 world cups) and Massimo Conturso (who is now the president of the american association). Withut theInternet, all this would not have been possible. That's so simple...
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:54 pm

Internet is useful for administration, organisation, contacts etc. But it's negative in the context of children and teens, even adults, who often choose the net instead of our game (and many other games).

Old divisive issues should be dealt with and forgotten, like Lorenzo wrote in his good post. The problem I see, and after 2 years activity in the discussions I am part of, is that the persons in the BoD don't understand this. It needs a lot of work, but only after that there is the possibility to forget. It's never a good thing to just wipe the dirt under a carpet. Some day it comes out, as we have seen when this year again one 10-year-old argument was taken up one-sidedly on a forum.

Like in all peace/unity work the past has to be cleared so that it can be accepted and forgotten. Sadly, or maybe it's a good thing, TF is so important that we have to use the same methods...

I also liked what Janus wrote. I thinks it's not necessary to agree with something, but it's necessary to know the facts and reasons, be informed and feel part of things. This is what I've missed the most in FISTF (not personally, but in general).

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  kechris on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:15 am

Please stop writing fool comments.
Internet is not enemy.
Videogames are not real enemies.
We are the only enemies of table soccer.
Why chess backgammon are still alive and popular?
WE LOST THE OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE A SIMPLE REALISTIC GAME.
We have 1000 rules in a book with 30 pages.
We found rules for new keepers figures bases because many people prefer the profit by the game but we couldn't find rules to stop illegal equipment and the unfair players.
we couldn't make more simple and clear rules for back for offside for spare keeper for NOTHING.
WE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE BIG PITCES WERE VERY DIFFICULT TO ENTER IN HOUSES.
We lost so many years in wrong direction. We lost thousands ex players and their sons.

AND WE LOST OUR TIME IN FORUMS WITH DISCUSSIONS WITHOUT END.
Do you remember one of ex BoD members to apologie because failed as manager or as responsible?

None.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:45 am

Chess and Backgammon are ancient games and completely incomparable with Subbuteo. Has the day got longer by many hours, if the hours people play videogames and use internet is not out of some other activity like TF. People also read less books these days. But I don't see how it is the fault of the publishers.

The problem is not the pitch size, the rules etc. The older rules are very simple, but people don't play with them either (and there are much more difficult rules in many popular games). The Subbuteo figures and goalies can be used, but people don't play with them. The pitch is the same, but in the old days with smaller apartments it was not a problem (it's not a problem in many other games, and in TF the rules allow a much smaller table, but it's not used).

I honestly don't understand why Subbuteo was so popular before the nineties (and the computerised revolution), but the same game is not so popular now? Do you know why they made less and less products 20 years ago before finally cutting down completely? Because people were not interested. Why? You tell me, if it has got nothing to do with videogames, internet etc. And remember it has got nothing to do with FISTF, but the simple original game.

I'm sorry, but you have to come up with something better and more concrete, Kostas, if you label the discussion foolish. Of course you can have a different opinion, but you have to give something more to convince me.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Lorenzo on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:19 am

kechris wrote:Please stop writing fool comments.
Why chess backgammon are still alive and popular?

Mainly because they can be played over Internet.

Besides, they are ancient games, firmly entrenched in Western culture.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:37 am

Kostas, you are totally wrong in what you write here, sorry.
Chess and Backgammon are world wide games produced and selled in every country, they are popular that's right, but I don't think there are many chess or backgammon clubs existing in the world.
FISTF has to organize the FISTF tour and the rules which are played on the "professional" level. Nobody of FISTF is responsible that people don't buy the smaller sized pitches or indoor subbuteo. I agree that it would make much more sense, but why is FISTF responsible for it, please explain that to me.

You hopefully don't want to tell us here that FISTF should regulate the size of pitches for "home-players"? There are sold smaller pitches, there are sold Indoor Subbuteo. Indoor Subbuteo is played nearly without any rules and is in my opinion a very good prduct for newcomers.
What do you need to sell a product? Marketing and Promotion.

The rules are another thing, our problem is that new players are playing FISTF events a very short time after playing the first time.
Do you play a chess tournament without even knowing the rules?

I agree on it, that some of our rules are very difficult to explain, but in soccer some rules are also very difficult, although people love the sport.
Our marketing is missing, without marketing nobody knows you. We think we do promotion when we built up some tables in a shopping mall and play 1 day.
That's only a part of promotion. Normally we should promote a product, not our hobby.

Kostas, if you want to stop talking take the responsibility and candidate for a job in FISTF. Those people who discuss here, can't change things in your interest, but we can talk what we could do better maybe. Maybe one day a FISTF president takes such discussions into consideration too. Actually I agree with you that it doesn't make sense to discuss because nobody of the responsible people even read here I guess. Another problem is the non-existing marketing director.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:19 pm

There are over 100 clubs registrated to the belgian Chess federation (!!!) while there are only 12 subbuteo clubs in Belgium (probably 11 next season).

Backgammon has a world association (http://www.world-backgammon-association.com/) with several national associations.

I agree with Heinz that Kechris is a bit too hot in his comments. We should not blame the FISTF Board for the lack of development of the game. Any association should be built as a pyramid and as long as local clubs don't have energy and time to get new players, it's difficult to speak about development.

Clubs are what we need. Unfortunately we live in a world where many clubs don't even have weekly meeting and youth development. it's therefore very complicated to move forward.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:48 pm

Vincent, of course there are much more chess clubs than tablesoccer clubs, that's out of question. I only wanted to say that in relationship how many people play chess there are not many people who play chess in a club.
I think the same can be said for backgammon.
Both are games which are sold world wide so I would think that there should be much more people playing in a club, but they aren't.
They play at home and maybe tournament rules are different to the rules you use at home. The same has to be said about table soccer, we have different versions of subbuteo (indoor, smaller pitch etc.), but if people want to play FISTF events or official association's events, they have to use FISTF rules and they have to be prepared for that.
It could start inside the associations for an example that they play tournaments for beginners on smaller pitches or they play own indoor championships. Of course FISTF could give some guides or advices, but nobody can say that FISTF has to act actively, that should be done by the associations.
Finally I don't understand why we need simple rules for FISTF tournaments. I agree that we need changes in our rules, but I think those who want to play FISTF events should be able to handle more complex rules too.
What we need is that rules are more clear written down maybe and we need good translations.


Last edited by Heinz Eder on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Thossa on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:48 pm

Hehe, gorgeous bla bla here Razz
If Subbuteo is in every european town in the shops available (like chess or backgammon) we will see all national Subbuteo associations incl FISTF growing automaticly.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:54 pm

Subbuteo (or at least Total Soccer) is everywhere in Spain but there are not so many players over there...
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:57 pm

Honestly I'm not totally sure about that.
Of course we would grow, but in my opinion we wouldn't get out the maximum of growth without professional help how to promote something the right way.
I don't think it would work like, we have material in shops and only need to wait for the new players and/or clubs.
Especially the lady's section won't be really influed by a small copy of the so loved soccer and in countries where soccer isn't so popular you need also "special" promotion work in my opinion.

Thossa wrote:Hehe, gorgeous bla bla here Razz
If Subbuteo is in every european town in the shops available (like chess or backgammon) we will see all national Subbuteo associations incl FISTF growing automaticly.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:47 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Honestly I'm not totally sure about that.
Of course we would grow, but in my opinion we wouldn't get out the maximum of growth without professional help how to promote something the right way.
I don't think it would work like, we have material in shops and only need to wait for the new players and/or clubs.
Especially the lady's section won't be really influed by a small copy of the so loved soccer and in countries where soccer isn't so popular you need also "special" promotion work in my opinion.

I think there would be a significantly increase of members. But even in its best times - as example - the german association never had more than 400 members though the game was in the shops and no video games were on the market. What I would like to say is that our starting point is nearly by zero (even in Italy !) and of course we would need professional suppport to promote the game. What I said some weeks ago: FISTF needs a professional fulltime marketing manager.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:52 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:What I said some weeks ago: FISTF needs a professional fulltime marketing manager.
...without personal interests...
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:19 pm

Admin wrote:
Janus_Gersie wrote:What I said some weeks ago: FISTF needs a professional fulltime marketing manager.
...without personal interests...


To remind you (taken from anorther thread here):

"A few years ago I already said FISTF needs a professional marketing manager (paid by FISTF) who cares about structures (incl. tournaments), processes and sponsors. In the first year he has to be paid by FISTF and as of the second year he has to be paid by himself.
I am convinced we don't only need good faith but really professional business structures. That would include a strategy on how to develop and it would also include a practicable way on how to consolidate "hobby" and "sports".

Our "professionals" (e.g. producers) care at first about their own interest. I don't criticise it because they are trying to optimise their own profit. That's reasonable. I would do the same if I would be a business man. So FISTF needs a professional business man working for FISTF. And in order to optimise profit for FISTF he has to develop structures, processes and sponsors. I am convinced this would work. But to be left with one question: where do we get the money from for the first year ?"


And I still believe in it .... and I still believe we would need someone from outside FISTF. Because inside FISTF I don't know any PROFESSIONAL marketing manager. So FISTF must look for an external solution.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:24 pm

After having received the circular letter about the "general states of table football", I think it's a totally desperate situation... So much crap in one letter is just unbelievable.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:33 pm

Janus, where we get the money from depends on it how much you would like to pay somebody you described.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:54 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Janus, where we get the money from depends on it how much you would like to pay somebody you described.

Well, let's do a calculation:
One FTE (Full Time Equivalent) appr. 70,000 € p.a. Cost to Company
+ Travel Cost appr. 10,000 € p.a.

That is what we are talking about. After one year he/she has to have so many sponsors etc. that this cost are paid from them.

The above mentioned figures are for a professional marketing manager like I see the job. Could be better determined by preparing a clear job description.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:55 pm

Admin wrote:After having received the circular letter about the "general states of table football", I think it's a totally desperate situation... So much crap in one letter is just unbelievable.

To many projects he would like to start with ....
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  kechris on Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:05 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
kechris wrote:Please stop writing fool comments.
Why chess backgammon are still alive and popular?

Mainly because they can be played over Internet.

Besides, they are ancient games, firmly entrenched in Western culture.

If all of you believe that chess and backgammon are popular because are ancient games, i loose my time to explain my opinions.
My son understand the rules of chess in few minutes. But he can't understand tottaly the offside rule yet.
He can play chess immediately if he find an opponent. But he cann't play table soccer in home. He needs a empty big room to put the table on legs.
I have the last 3 years a small pitch and all my friends (no subbuteo players) when they visit me want to play table soccer.
We play with the simple rule one flick one block (no flick moving ball, no flick before block, no block before ball stop ). So no difficult situations with back and freekicks.
We use small ball and after the first flicks you cann't see the unrealistic system with 8 defenders in the same line.
I use the same rules to teach my son. Because kids hate the difficult rules. Kids also hate loosing. In video games they use the amateur or beginner level for com opponent because they want to win.
In table soccer is not possible. I found a solution. I use for practise. I play with 7 figures against my son so he believe that he can win me. Many years before i asked in my club by the strong players to use 7 figures against weaks.
So the weaks players want to play against strongers.
We need a more simple game for players and referees. Of course we need cheap bases figures pitches balls (3pieces for 5e is scandal). A cheap game like domino jenga scrabble and etc

WE NEED A DIFFERENT WAY TO COME CLOSER TO NEW PLAYERS
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:34 pm

Meeting postponed to march (due to the poor attendance?) Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  maxischn on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:17 am

rather to get players to the GP of Paris on 3. and 4. March 2012 Smile

plan with thoughts behind, as usual....
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Thossa on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:44 am

It´s amazing to see this news here first, before it is announced offical by fistf.com Neutral
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  manu on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:39 pm

It was on the official french federation website.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  kechris on Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:26 am

Happy new year.

p.s Manuel in french federation site must announce the meeting of french federation.
the meeting of fistf must announce in fistf's site. I think...
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:21 pm

Happy new year.
The new year started at least with a good decision, hopefully the new date will be announced very soon that those associations, who want to take part, have enough chances for cheap travelling.

Heinz

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

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