Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

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Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:28 pm

Is there any agenda?

Without agenda, is it worth travelling to Paris?
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Thossa on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:37 pm

Admin wrote:Is there any agenda?

Without agenda, is it worth travelling to Paris?

Next weekend is an other meeting of FISTF BoD in Paris. Maybe they will discuss then the agenda Wink
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:42 pm

Then it will be late for associations to decide if it's worth travelling or not. What a joke...
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:15 am

Admin wrote:Is there any agenda?

Without agenda, is it worth travelling to Paris?

NO AGENDA = NO PARTICIPATION

Even with an agenda I have strong doubts if I will travel. What should be discussed ? By travelling it could be a wrong sign ... because it could be interpreted as if the associations would accept Laurent as President.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:32 pm

I have exactly the same opinion. I believe Laurent would even refuse a "vote of confidence".
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  maxischn on Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:25 am

i couldn't resist to comment and downvote it Sad
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:03 am

I couldn't watch more than 1 minute. If you start with a big lie, without blinking your eyes, you're not worth listening to.

I'm surprised that he didn't think of an "explanation" better than a blatant lie about the statutes.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:57 am

A perfect interview: what about "real" questions?
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Thossa on Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:41 pm

Admin wrote:A perfect interview: what about "real" questions?

Let´s forget for a moment the content - the idea and the production of that interview with the presentation is very good. Thumbs up, Norbert.

What makes me to be absolutely amazed in this interview is the fact that they just have a date, but yet no place to hold the meeting. This is a totaly unprofessional attitute and not really confidence-building.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Kaitsu on Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:42 pm

Maybe it would be better to put the whole 'professionalism' thing aside just for now and put the effort to rebuild and unite the community and update the basic functionality of FISTF. The basic idea in the video about getting all people working together and for the same goals is the idea i'm looking for. Don't know Garnier and reading the opinios from here doesn't convince me about him, but i share that view with him (like most of us, i assume).

About the video, i hated te rolling text. Another thing was the line "Garnier is nothing. He is just a tool" was funny, as word 'tool' also means fool (Check it out), but that's a minor and taken out of the context.

Garnier doesn't like the modern technology and that kinda bothers me, as it could be really good tool for connecting people around the world. I know how it has been for examle with the SN-forum, but jugding the whole thing based on that is like rating movies with eyes closed.

Garnier is also speaking about tv/internet games that are our enemies, but that's not true. These things don't count each others out, but online games are using the good sides of interweb abilities and that's why those are so popular.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:40 pm

SDF wrote:
After this interview i have many many doubts more.... but i i said i'm out

Good luck FISTF!!!
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:57 am

Thossa wrote:
Admin wrote:A perfect interview: what about "real" questions?

Let´s forget for a moment the content - the idea and the production of that interview with the presentation is very good. Thumbs up, Norbert.

I agree in parts. The rolling texts gave me a headache, and I would maybe have chosen another piece of music. But in general, I agree.

The content was as it has been for too long. Nice words without anything concrete or, indeed, interesting. For example the children mantra. Yes, naturally, more thanks! But how? Just with work? I wish it would be so simple. And also unrealistic talk about for example Australia joining in person. And all this collaboration and work talk from a person whose achievements (in BoD the last 2 years) and participation (Rain meeting for example) have lately left a lot to be desired. So, instead of visions I'd like to know something more concrete about what kind of a tool Garnier is. Malfunctioning tool would perhaps be the answer from recent experience.

Of course, this was meant to be a promotional interview made by the federation itself. And not something independent media would do. The questions are also just a bridge to let him speak what he wants, just like a promo should be. For the questions and answers Vincent and many others would like to see, we'd need independent media, which is not existing in our game, and was not the purpose of this.

Kaitsu wrote:Another thing was the line "Garnier is nothing. He is just a tool" was funny, as word 'tool' also means fool (Check it out), but that's a minor and taken out of the context.

We also should remember that urban language and slang is not to be mixed with serious language and translations of serious texts. Otherwise it would be impossible to talk about anything seriously. There are slang meanings everywhere, especially in english.

More interesting fro me is what he means with "I hope for australians it's not a question of money" (to come to meetings in person). Does he mean it would be better that they have another reason, personal perhaps? Or is he so dislocated from the economical reality, that he thinks that these times anyone should be able to travel and spend huge money for meetings without agendas, locations and called byt non-presidents? Or is the meaning lost in translation, or maybe my eyes were seeing things?

Kaitsu wrote:Garnier is also speaking about tv/internet games that are our enemies, but that's not true. These things don't count each others out, but online games are using the good sides of interweb abilities and that's why those are so popular.

Naturally the video games and internet are the enemies of activities and hobbies happening in reality. It's not a coincidence that Subbuteo and a whole lot of other board games were a lot more important part of freetime in the days before videogames, internet etc. That doesn't mean internet shouldn't be used to get more people interested. But what is clear is that to get young people interested is a lot more difficult than 25 years ago.

Admin wrote:SDF wrote:
After this interview i have many many doubts more.... but i i said i'm out

Good luck FISTF!!!

I'm confused. Wasn't this person the one who attacked people because they questioned Garnier, and asked them to give him time... Razz

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Norbert on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:09 am

Admin wrote:SDF wrote:
After this interview i have many many doubts more.... but i i said i'm out

Good luck FISTF!!!

I'm confused. Wasn't this person the one who attacked people because they questioned Garnier, and asked them to give him time... Razz [/quote]

I think SDF is going to ban himself from his own forum. It was forbidden to have some doubts about FISTF. A terrible forgotten...

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  zaccy on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:28 pm

SdF fell from the chair and therefore his is so messed up Rolling Eyes

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Kaitsu on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:00 pm

von K. wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:Another thing was the line "Garnier is nothing. He is just a tool" was funny, as word 'tool' also means fool (Check it out), but that's a minor and taken out of the context.

We also should remember that urban language and slang is not to be mixed with serious language and translations of serious texts. Otherwise it would be impossible to talk about anything seriously. There are slang meanings everywhere, especially in english.
As i told it was taken out of context as he said that "he's a tool for FISTF/TF/etc", but still i found those two lines funny. If you didn't it's okey to me as it didn't have bigger meaning.

von K. wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:Garnier is also speaking about tv/internet games that are our enemies, but that's not true. These things don't count each others out, but online games are using the good sides of interweb abilities and that's why those are so popular.

Naturally the video games and internet are the enemies of activities and hobbies happening in reality. It's not a coincidence that Subbuteo and a whole lot of other board games were a lot more important part of freetime in the days before videogames, internet etc. That doesn't mean internet shouldn't be used to get more people interested. But what is clear is that to get young people interested is a lot more difficult than 25 years ago.
Well, video/internet games are as much a enemy to TF as to any other hobby/game that requires physical attending and long term commitment if one wants to really learn the game. But that's not the whole truth as we are still talking about kinda unique type of game that can hook people to play it for years if people just can find it (and the reason to play it).

What i meant by the 'good sides of interweb abilities' is the communication and united groups that people are using while playing the games. I have seen browser games that have 1000-2000 players around the world cooperating and having meetings on the web (mainly text based, but you can have online meetings with face and voice too) and everything runs smoothly. Long story short, internet based communication (not talking about forums) can offer lots of more ways for meetings (for example) where ever the people are physically and without spending any extra money for the travels, hotels etc.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Admin on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:20 pm


Some real questions:
- you gave support to a guy (Silvio Catania) who wanted to take over things while the current Board was just 8 months away of the end of its term. Are you sorry about this mistake? Are you comfortable with what you did and the role in the "take over"?
- after taking the lead in the elections in Frankfurt and Madrid, with the results we all know, don't you feel guilty of all the work that has been destroyed by people who have disappeared already?
- you totally disappeared of the FISTF scene for 15 years. When you left in 1996, you let no money left ont he FISTF bank account and admitted you failed as president. Sinca then, apart from the WC in Les herbiers, you did nothing for the international movement. How do you think you can succed now while you failed 15 years ago?
- as according to the statutes, Koutromanos or Culpes should have been president, not you. So why don't you accept Capponi's proposal to have electiosn in Mons?
- if you don't accept elections, why don't you accept a vote of confidence while you are probably aware of the fact that the majority of associations does NOT trust you?
- what do you answer to those who say you only work for the money? Back in 2002, you were elected general secretary of FISTF but you refused to work. Looks like one of the reasons was that Coppenolle refused to give you a fix amount of money to work every month. So what?
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:56 am

Kaitsu wrote:
von K. wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:Another thing was the line "Garnier is nothing. He is just a tool" was funny, as word 'tool' also means fool (Check it out), but that's a minor and taken out of the context.

We also should remember that urban language and slang is not to be mixed with serious language and translations of serious texts. Otherwise it would be impossible to talk about anything seriously. There are slang meanings everywhere, especially in english.
As i told it was taken out of context as he said that "he's a tool for FISTF/TF/etc", but still i found those two lines funny. If you didn't it's okey to me as it didn't have bigger meaning.

For me it's not relevant regarding criticism if an official comment or translation uses a word that can be funny in slang. There are funny slang words everywhere, so as long as it is not a mistake in real language I don't consider it a mistake, and in my opinion it's not right to criticise a word that is used correctly.

I see the funny side, but it doesn't make it a mistake, if I want to laugh when hearing "but" (the same pronounciation as "butt"). I expressed this view, because in FISTF people are many times criticising things, statements and people because of secondary things, which is also one of the reasons for the bad environment in FISTF. We also have many many people who are not so good in english, so maybe they would have been left with the thought that Garnier had made a mistake.

I also take an interest in translation, and the usual big mistake nowadays is to change the style of the text while translating. Slang to similar slang, official to official etc. is the right way to do it.

I have nothing against you laughing at the sentence, of course.

Kaitsu wrote:
von K. wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:Garnier is also speaking about tv/internet games that are our enemies, but that's not true. These things don't count each others out, but online games are using the good sides of interweb abilities and that's why those are so popular.

Naturally the video games and internet are the enemies of activities and hobbies happening in reality. It's not a coincidence that Subbuteo and a whole lot of other board games were a lot more important part of freetime in the days before videogames, internet etc. That doesn't mean internet shouldn't be used to get more people interested. But what is clear is that to get young people interested is a lot more difficult than 25 years ago.
Well, video/internet games are as much a enemy to TF as to any other hobby/game that requires physical attending and long term commitment if one wants to really learn the game. But that's not the whole truth as we are still talking about kinda unique type of game that can hook people to play it for years if people just can find it (and the reason to play it).

Yes, but the last sentence is the point of the criticism. Most young people who are drawn to the easier games in a world they know do not think this game is anything special to get hooked on. This is why videogames, internet (playing, surfing, wasting time) etc. are seen as the enemy. They also take a lot of time from potential young players, which would otherwise be used maybe for Subbuteo.

Kaitsu wrote:What i meant by the 'good sides of interweb abilities' is the communication and united groups that people are using while playing the games. I have seen browser games that have 1000-2000 players around the world cooperating and having meetings on the web (mainly text based, but you can have online meetings with face and voice too) and everything runs smoothly. Long story short, internet based communication (not talking about forums) can offer lots of more ways for meetings (for example) where ever the people are physically and without spending any extra money for the travels, hotels etc.

Internet can and should be used as a tool for meetings, communication etc. However I don't see the international TF world comparable to browser game communication, for whom the net is natural habitat.

I don't believe that web abilities make the difference between TF and web games regarding popularity. They can and should be used for help, but they can't change the popularity of the game dramatically. The game is what it is, and fits quite poorly into the world of the youth of today.


Last edited by von K. on Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:57 am

Admin wrote:
Some real questions:
- you gave support to a guy (Silvio Catania) who wanted to take over things while the current Board was just 8 months away of the end of its term. Are you sorry about this mistake? Are you comfortable with what you did and the role in the "take over"?
- after taking the lead in the elections in Frankfurt and Madrid, with the results we all know, don't you feel guilty of all the work that has been destroyed by people who have disappeared already?
- you totally disappeared of the FISTF scene for 15 years. When you left in 1996, you let no money left ont he FISTF bank account and admitted you failed as president. Sinca then, apart from the WC in Les herbiers, you did nothing for the international movement. How do you think you can succed now while you failed 15 years ago?
- as according to the statutes, Koutromanos or Culpes should have been president, not you. So why don't you accept Capponi's proposal to have electiosn in Mons?
- if you don't accept elections, why don't you accept a vote of confidence while you are probably aware of the fact that the majority of associations does NOT trust you?
- what do you answer to those who say you only work for the money? Back in 2002, you were elected general secretary of FISTF but you refused to work. Looks like one of the reasons was that Coppenolle refused to give you a fix amount of money to work every month. So what?

Good questions, but sadly rhetorical...

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Kaitsu on Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:52 am

von K. wrote:Yes, but the last sentence is the point of the criticism. Most young people who are drawn to the easier games in a world they know do not think this game is anything special to get hooked on. This is why videogames, internet (playing, surfing, wasting time) etc. are seen as the enemy. They also take a lot of time from potential young players, which would otherwise be used maybe for Subbuteo.
Can't speak for others, but this is not the whole truth as internet is not the reason for TF not having lots of players. Personally i'm one of those who has been grown up with video games and still i have found my way in to TF world. Like i said before, it's about finding something about the actual game that makes people to stay with it, but it's same thing with any other video/board game.

I share the thought about video games being those easier games, you only need to compare games today vs games at 10 years and 20 years ago to see the huge difference. But then again even those modern games are easier to learn they still share one big thing with TF for example and that is to compete against other people. Take any video/pc/browser/board/card game and you'll notice that the best hook is to play against someone else. TF is offering this same opportunity, but it would be good to figure out what else it can offer and what it is lacking of to make it more interesting for new people.

von K. wrote:Internet can and should be used as a tool for meetings, communication etc. However I don't see the international TF world comparable to browser game communication, for whom the net is natural habitat.

I don't believe that web abilities make the difference between TF and web games regarding popularity. They can and should be used for help, but they can't change the popularity of the game dramatically. The game is what it is, and fits quite poorly into the world of the youth of today.
To me TF community is just one "gamer community" and my point in internet game community writing was that we have (free) tools to have world wide communication and even meetings that can serve tens, hundreds or even thousands of people in real time. It didn't have anything to do with the popularity of TF.

I'm just questioning the attitude against virtual activity related to communication around TF and personally i think that people with that attitude shouldn't be part of FISTF BoD. Of course it's totally different thing to meet people face to face, but meetings that every player can participate online are different than meetings with the same ~10 people in different european country few times a year.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  von K. on Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:02 pm

Kaitsu wrote:
von K. wrote:Yes, but the last sentence is the point of the criticism. Most young people who are drawn to the easier games in a world they know do not think this game is anything special to get hooked on. This is why videogames, internet (playing, surfing, wasting time) etc. are seen as the enemy. They also take a lot of time from potential young players, which would otherwise be used maybe for Subbuteo.
Can't speak for others, but this is not the whole truth as internet is not the reason for TF not having lots of players. Personally i'm one of those who has been grown up with video games and still i have found my way in to TF world. Like i said before, it's about finding something about the actual game that makes people to stay with it, but it's same thing with any other video/board game.

I share the thought about video games being those easier games, you only need to compare games today vs games at 10 years and 20 years ago to see the huge difference. But then again even those modern games are easier to learn they still share one big thing with TF for example and that is to compete against other people. Take any video/pc/browser/board/card game and you'll notice that the best hook is to play against someone else. TF is offering this same opportunity, but it would be good to figure out what else it can offer and what it is lacking of to make it more interesting for new people.

We see things a bit differently. I, and some other critics, see videogames, internet etc. as an enemy, because they are new (compared to Subbuteo) competitors for the same time. This generation of TF players is almost middle-aged, and the younger generation is non-existent. And the history is that this generation was the product of the golden years of Subbuteo, while these are the dark years, so there must be some reason, as the game is as compelling as always.

Exceptions are always there, but you also are part of the generation, which stilla grew up without internet and with much less time-consuming videogames (I had C64, and 2 hours was a long time to play continuously, especially 1 game). When I once played a football manager game years ago, I was so hooked, that I would play 10 hours after a night at work. And in those days there were no communities for games.

But the reasons are not so important, and we'll anyway never make a trustworthy study about it, so better to forget this aspect. I just wanted to point out the thinking behind the talk of "enemy". The important thing, however, is that the main concern remains the same with most TF lovers. There are not enough players, especially new players. We must look at how the game can be more interesting for newcomers and children. This can be helped by the FISTF of course (rules, equipment, attitude, information etc.), but the main movers and shakers are the active people in countries. If they can use the net or anything else for help, it would just be positive.

Kaitsu wrote:
von K. wrote:Internet can and should be used as a tool for meetings, communication etc. However I don't see the international TF world comparable to browser game communication, for whom the net is natural habitat.

I don't believe that web abilities make the difference between TF and web games regarding popularity. They can and should be used for help, but they can't change the popularity of the game dramatically. The game is what it is, and fits quite poorly into the world of the youth of today.
To me TF community is just one "gamer community" and my point in internet game community writing was that we have (free) tools to have world wide communication and even meetings that can serve tens, hundreds or even thousands of people in real time. It didn't have anything to do with the popularity of TF.

I'm just questioning the attitude against virtual activity related to communication around TF and personally i think that people with that attitude shouldn't be part of FISTF BoD. Of course it's totally different thing to meet people face to face, but meetings that every player can participate online are different than meetings with the same ~10 people in different european country few times a year.

I think both are needed. But the physical meetings should be done on the weekends of big happenings, so that people have more reasons to spend money. It's unrealistic and makes the TF undemocratic, when only those with money can participate. However, I do believe that most people, even Garnier, are happy with the commission work, administration etc. to be done on the net. Albeit he likes the closed forums. It's always easier to find a unified way in a meeting in person, but the reality of a small global federation has to be taken into consideration, and a lot of things done in the net. So both are needed, but in the correct way and mixture.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:34 pm

Hi, very interesting to read your discussion, but in the end we have some major problems in FISTF and the majority seems to have the feeling that there is nobody who works for a solution.
Words of unity and looking for other responsibles won't solve the problems. We must stop saying all the time, we are so poor because of video games or the internet.
We need to find a strategy to promote the advantages of our hobby/sport and shouldn't look to the other competitors/enemies and be scared all the time.
A big problem is the generation of young people on its own, they are not able to communicate, they are not able to keep things in their head you explain to them. That's the result of playing video games and communicating only in internet forum or anywhere else in the net.
You don't need to talk when playing FIFA or something simular, you only need to press some buttons in the right order.
In internet forum you can write anonymus things you normally wouldn't say face to face.
Studies in schools proof that the actual young generation has big problems out of the big offer of video games and wrong use of internet. That would be our chance, but we need the right program for it. The children itself won't be the key to success, our key are the parents who want their children to do different things than playing video games all day long.
We have the same problems in our hobby many teachers have every day in their job.

In case of the physical meetings, I wouldn't care to spend money for a meeting without playing a tournament, because I honestly prefer to do other things after a long day of playing than having a meeting in the evening. Especially when the meetings are as productive as the one in Frankfurt for an example. Of course you can talk a lot and maybe know each other a bit better after such a week-end, but the results or better the grade of realization was very poor.

Always talking about unity is useless. The unity will be an automatic result if people will organize a Congress the right way and if the elected people will work for the benefit of tablesoccer including the interested members of FISTF on a bright base.
That's the only possible way of success in my opinion.

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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:27 am

Heinz Eder wrote:In case of the physical meetings, I wouldn't care to spend money for a meeting without playing a tournament, because I honestly prefer to do other things after a long day of playing than having a meeting in the evening. Especially when the meetings are as productive as the one in Frankfurt for an example. Of course you can talk a lot and maybe know each other a bit better after such a week-end, but the results or better the grade of realization was very poor.

Well said, Heinz. I also had the feeling we could do better or improve some things after Frankfurt. But what happened ? The process started in Frankfurt did not continue. Me as a president of an association felt more and more disinformed with more and more pressure on certain things. I did not really understand the targets of the board because I did not feel well informed. I did not feel being part of the new "movement". So I started to ask questions without answers to strengthen confidence.

This is what we have to overcome. Even though I don't have to agree with everything I must be well informed about all topics in order to decide correct.

Right now we don't have any further info about Paris. We'll see what will happen.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:48 am

The real trouble in interesting kids to TS does not consist in getting them in touch with the game. Problem is, you need to build up a serious commitment if they are to remain interested through puberty, and that’s difficult to achieve in a world where a teenager’s free time is filled with computers, videogames and mobile phones.

Frankly, I don’t have an answer to the problem.

As far as Garnier’s position is concerned, I can’t imagine that an isolated meeting with no set agenda shall advance any topic. It is imperative to work out a program based on a number of limited, realistic, clear-cut objectives aimed to restore unity throughout the community. And, FISTF should make an effort to organize summits as well as the work of commissions by videoconference. It is the one way to allow real participation from people living in different nations.

That said, I also think we should make an effort to look to the future we may still have, and stop raking up old divisive issues.
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

Post  Thossa on Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:53 am

Laurent Garnier made a big mistake. As he accepted to be president ad interim he missed the chance to clear up the air.

Certainly he is clever enough to notice all the ressentiments regarding his person, based on his work (or better not work) in FISTF BoD all over the last years.

He missed the chance to say sorry for that, with an asurance to make it better now. That would be a correct start.

Now he simple calls for people to help him to do a lot of work. The controverse is really funny.

The "big meeting" in Paris is nothing else as distrubutation of work to all participants. A doubtful pleasure and expensive too.

I guess in the next days we will learn about some important missing answers to the adress of the place and what is the agenda. It is naive to think people will come only because The Big L is calling.

What if the big meeting will see only a handful of participants?
What if it will be "not successful"?

Probably the writers in this forum will be the reason for that failure and the bad bad internet...
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Re: Meeting in Paris (January 7/8)

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