De Francesco at Subbuteonews

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De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  von K. on Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:49 am

Sorry to have to open this topic. It's just quite unbelievable that a person uses a censored forum which has banned all my countrymen to write negative things about people that are either not true, or are nothing but his opinions (without facts).

I have openly asked Mr. De Francesco in the italian forum to discuss these matters in an english forum where I can answer them, or stop writing absolute trash about me (and many others). I repeat in here that I wish he has the arguments and facts to support the things he writes about, and that he comes here to represent them, or allows me to write in the SN.

The quotes are from him from SN.

The usual layabouts only speakers have said that I left the sport into chaos.

Who has said this and when? The "usual layabaouts" term has referred also to me before, so I want to correct that I have not written or said this.

some people have thrown upon us shit for months.

Can you say who have? And please specify what is this shit, because I would like to know if it was done out of personal interests, maliciousness or because of valid reasons.

I also would like to ask if you can confirm that you have not thrown shit at other people? If not, and there was no reason for "some people" to do that, then you are entitled to feel bad, and the people owe you an apology.

All we did was wrong.

Who has said this?

All of our proposals were stupid.

Who has said this?

Each time was right to create problems.

What problems were created? Clear examples would help understand this comment. By whom were these created? Was this just criticism based on arguments that you could not answer, or what. I'm confused.

They are people from countries where the activity doesn't exist or large countries in which are playing a small number of people.

Who are these people? You seem to have something against Finland, but we have good activity, new players (not members, but beginners), we organise FISTF GP/IO (date to be announced), our association has no problems, and even your countryman, Mr. De Francesco, who has visited us, said that was positively surprised by the good TF movement in Finland (wonder where he got the wrong information about it not being good...).

In 1995 (about), I have read that italians were very few that played FISTF game. Only 50 or something. And you have been active since the 70's, Mr. De Francesco. How come you made such poor job in those 20 years, that in your country which has had more Subbuteo players than any other in the 80's the numbers were so low? We in Finland have more players than Italy, if we compare to the numbers of Subbuteo sets sold, which means the people who are familiar with the game.

By the way, once you criticised Finland and eulogised yourself regarding the numbers of players. Our former president Kari Hakkarainen, who first played in mainland Europe in the eighties, and has never taken part on any arguments, asked if you could explain what you personally did to make that happen. You never answered. He would have appreciated a road map to glory. After all, he spends so much time for TF and for promotion (very unrewarding with regard to numbers of new members in these arctic parts) that he surely have liked to know what he does wrong. Instead you seemed to say that no one in Finland does anything. Nice thing to say to people who live for the game, but unfortunately live in a country that has never had its own Parodi.

They always knew everything and we were always under attack.

Who has said he knows everything? I have seen many people trying to discuss with proper argumentation, only to not receive any answer or any will for having constructive discussion. And give an example of how these people attacked you(seemingly without any reason).

As you know our statute is absolutely inadequate. When we proposed to update it with important changes have been criticized by the same people.

Are you referring to the statutes changes that were made in the Catania era, which were criticised because the english was hard to understand and the layout made it practically intolerable reading? Because that was the only version I've seen (perhaps my memory fails me), and I recall some people asking for a cleaner version, but it was not delivered.

What happened to the statutes work after Madrid? The finnish president, Teemu Sihvola, volunteered to help in a commission work after Madrid, but never got even an answer.

I got tired of them. They are not even able to call an extraordinary congress.

I'm again confused. Who are "they"? If you mean 2-3 countries, then how could they call an EGM? And why should people always call for an EGM. Maybe these people are also tired.

You also seem to have missed the point that it's the BoD that should call it, because they are doing things against the statutes.

I think the bigger issue is that a majority of countries, including Italy (which I hold in high regard), are not demanding that statutes are followed.

If I want (rest assured) the Extraordinary Congress that would soon be convened within 3 months

No doubt. After all you admitted to me in telephone before Madrid, that no matter who is the italian in FISTF BoD, you would have him around your little finger. For many people, that's not democracy or the correct way to do things, though.

but I do not care to commit myself to see Von K. and Thossa Busing candidates.

I wonder what has been behind your moods regarding me. A year ago you wrote, after a year of insults (also against my country, and for example in the FISTF council), that it was the first time you took me seriously. Then you again didn't like me in the start of the year. Then I was candidate and you offered me the position of General Secretary 1 day before Madrid elections, in a BoD of your choice (why if I'm such a dork?). And then after the infamous EGM of Madrid, which was duly criticised, you targeted me and banned me after I had written nothing worse than your personal insult against me.

But don't worry about me. You can call the EGM with your might (I've read all about it from the Old Subbuteo circles), and I can promise you that I won't candidate.

On 1 condition...

For FISTF these peoples is like poison. They are not able to do anything other than talk and insult.

...you don't write this shite anymore. You have no idea what would have happened if I would have been electde as president. You were never even interested to hear my ideas or views, you never asked (but without asking or knowing anything you still asked me to be on your Board, quite interesting), you never wanted to understand what I was after. Many others did. That's how I got the votes I did.

Rest assured, if I had been elected, FISTF would be on a road to unity, and Italy would have it's deserved place as a respected and biggest nation in TF. I have always seen Italy's role as vital, you never understood it. But I had ideas on how to make also others see it, depending on if italy would also accept that smaller countries are important for FISTF. But the importance of the biggest and most important members can be taken into consideration in many ways, not just by your way of having more votes in the congress. My way was the way to find common ground for FISTF. And as I wrote in my candidacy letter, I didn't intend to say what is correct way to do things, I intended to make structures and platforms that would have made it easier to develope ideas in collaboration even with lesser skills in languages.

You see, Stefano, you know nothing about me or what I can do. Because you are not interested.

But if you (it was up to you, wasn't it) didn't want to elect me to do things for FISTF, then don't blame me for not doing things for FISTF. And remember that it was me who called for silence in Rain meeting, when the others present (incl. Catania and you) were shouting without anyone getting any order on things. And remember that it was me who tried to get some organisation to the FISTF council, when your contribution was to block everything, because you didn't believe in the council. Well, why did you not let some italian who did, take your place? And remember that I have been involved in the FISTF sports commission, which would have been even better with an italian member, but for some reason the 2 different italians who were asked didn't join, and which then resigned unanimously after the BoD consisting of Catania, Garnier and Koutroumanos blocked everything they didn't like, no matter how well argumentated (that commission was, by the way, the one which changed the CL and EL tback to the same venue, a decision you Mr. De Francesco didn't thnk was correct, but which you saw afterwards was correct).

Who was the person in Rain meeting that after Frankfurt had promised elections in Rain, but in Rain threatened that his country will leave FISTF (on the eve of a World Cup!) if there will be elections? You, Mr. De Francesco.

Who was the person who had made the same promise, but whose country was not even present in the meeting in Rain, although he was in town for the games? Capponi.

Who was the person who shouted out loud on Sunday morning in Rain, that the competition is cancelled, after a rule disagreement? You, Mr. De Francesco.

And who was the person who calmed Capponi down in the half time of the team U-19 semi final, when he accused the referee (wrongly) of a mistake? I calmed him down.

And who was the person who talked with a U-19 player (first time I met him) for 20 minutes after an ill-tempered match (by both players, an italian and a dutch), explaining to him that mostly it was misunderstaning because of lack of mutual language and lack of knowledge of the gestures of the other's culture, and who received also a handshake of appreciation from the boy's father after that? It was me.

And who was the one who got the belgian team to go talk and forgive the referee of the team final (Malta-Belgium), who was distraught by the mayhem and the accuses, while the maltese FISTF president (who you supported as president) instead of acting to his status, pushed the belgian team leader at the table? It was me, who acted as the catalyst for peace outside the hall.

So don't tell me that I don't do anything, or that I don't care. Or that it is me, who is poison for FISTF. And if you're not willing to let me do anything, not even take part in discussion, then don't come up with such bollocks about me not doing anything.

I'm beginning to wonder if you have the balls to have a clear discussion based on facts and argumentation.

p.s. Mr. De Francesco, have you already had time to correct your false information about finnish membership etc. that you wrote in the italian forum? It was corrected by our president soon after, but I didn't see an apology or even a correction last time I visited.

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Re: De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:11 am

von K. wrote:
The usual layabouts only speakers have said that I left the sport into chaos.

Who has said this and when? The "usual layabaouts" term has referred also to me before, so I want to correct that I have not written or said this.




Well, Vesa, regarding another post in the SN forum (a few days before) I wrote to Stefano in order to clarify some issues.

This is what I wrote (as an excerpt):
"...
As you are a man of honour you should better think about what you write:
1. You don't know how many nations are supporting the attempt of Laurent ("many nations").
2. Unfortunately you and Piero were not able to fight "stupid struggles" and to find a short-term solution regarding discipline at the pitches (example: WorldCup and EC/CL).
3. And unfortunately you and Piero struggled again (for the second time in 22 months) by building up a "new" FISTF. Can you imagine that people/nations/players don't want to change FISTF because they were happy ?
4. But you both took the easy way: you both resigned by leaving a chaos behind. Piero and you have to take a big portion of responsibility of the current situation of FISTF.
5. And this is my main allegation: Piero and you destroyed more than you built up. You both started with good will but without any proper plan and without knowing how to take along the nations."
...


To be honest, Stefano is even not able to read properly. I didn't write he left his sports department in chaos. For me Stefano is a clear prove of "You only hear what you would like to hear".

I don't publish his answer to my mail as it wouldn't be fair. I still keep fairness even though he placed me in his "layabout"-box. I know what I have done in the last decade for tablesoccer and I don't have to hide. Regarding Stefano I can only answer with a german saying: "Was stört es die Eiche, wenn sich ein Schwein dran kratzt?" Could be translated like: "The oak does not bother if a pig is rubbing against its trunk."
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Re: De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  the dwarf on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:25 pm

To be honest, Stefano is even not able to read properly. I didn't write he left his sports department in chaos. For me Stefano is a clear prove of "You only hear what you would like to hear".

I don't publish his answer to my mail as it wouldn't be fair. I still keep fairness even though he placed me in his "layabout"-box. I know what I have done in the last decade for tablesoccer and I don't have to hide. Regarding Stefano I can only answer with a german saying: "Was stört es die Eiche, wenn sich ein Schwein dran kratzt?" Could be translated like: "The oak does not bother if a pig is rubbing against its trunk."

But Janus, my frriend :
"The President is always right!"

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Re: De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:39 pm

the dwarf wrote:"The President is always right!"

Shut up, we don't even have a president right now...!!


It's quite hard to find words for SdF's behaviour. For sure he has some good ideas for the movement. Unfortunately he just doesn't have the patience to put things on track in a proper and democratic way. So changes were made without asking for feedback before. Then he was wondering that the feedback to his actions was not as enthusiastic as expected and as a consequence he was not only disappointed, he even felt attacked personally...
It's like a child which can't wait for an automatic door to open, running against the glass and then crying... Plus that he wants to destroy the door afterwards...!!

To read Vesa's posts is, was and always had been such a pleasure because of his calmness, which in my eyes is the main quality for a future president of FISTF.
Followed closely by his cleverness ;-)

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Re: De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:19 pm

For sure Vesa is a very smart and calm person. I also think he's 100% right. Sometimes I have the feeling he's wasting time to write here because what is going to change anyway?

De Francesco has made mistakes because he's like Capponi. When he's dreaming of something during the night, it has to become a reality on the next day. Many changes have been huge mistakes:
- the rule of the 0-5;
- stopping the qualification by the world ranking (or at least giving less importance to the WR) (see the number of players in Berlin over the last 10 years. it went up to 98 but instead of continuig to grow, it is down to 61 now);
- some minor changes like having 16 girls & U15 (instead of 8 ) automatically qualified for the WC (while there are not many different nations involved in these categories).

The only difference between De Francesco and people like Garnier/Catania/Capponi/Koutromanos is that De Francesco seems to be the only one who likes table football while the others are int he Board for their personal interests.

After almost 2 years of nightmare, the only thing I would expect from people like De Francesco/Garnier/Catania/Capponi/Koutromanos would be that they all write in public "sorry for all the fuss, we have been idiots, we just thought we could change may things in a positive way but we were just unable to do so".

Instead of that, we have now Garnier sticking to his "job" of president, wanting no elections and having absolutely no program for the sport. Among the 5 mentionned people, Garnier is certainly the one who has had less contacts witht he community of players over the last few years. What has he done for the international circuit over the last 15 years? Absolutely nothing. Having someone like him like president is the worst scenario possible. At least Capponi and De Francesco had "enthusiasm"...

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Re: De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  Thossa on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:43 pm

Admin wrote:What has he done for the international circuit over the last 15 years? Absolutely nothing.

Well, absolutely nothing is not really right. He was nearly all the time invisible, yes.

Please do not forget his lucrative WC 2007 in No Man´s Land Razz

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Re: De Francesco at Subbuteonews

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:25 pm

Yes, thanks to this wonderful event, France has now hundreds of new players. Professional work... lol!

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