No issue?

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No issue?

Post  Admin on Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:18 am

I saw that Vesa posted a message on the italian forum. Stefano De Francesco's answer pushes me to believe there is no issue for FISTF... (the Google translation is far to be perfect but it gives an idea)
Non scrivo praticamente più nulla sul forum perchè avevo bisogno di staccare la spina. Mi tocca farlo solo perchè leggo inesattezze e ricostruzioni fantasiose da parte di Von K.

Il nostro simpatico finlandese che vorrebbe fare il Presidente FISTF (Si era candidato a Madrid contro Piero, dall'alto della sua esperienza e dei suoi straordinari risultati in Finlandia ) stando a casa sua, senza partecipare a nessun torneo, non facendo una beneamata seg.... e gestendo una nazione che ad oggi per quanto ne so, non è neppure paese membro, accusa Garnier di varie cose.

Il nostro amico di babbo natale sostiene che a Madrid Garnier si sarebbe reso responsabile di falsificare il processo elettorale e cita a tale proposito quello di non fare votare per telefono (pensate l'assurdo) alcune nazioni. Il voto telefonico non è previsto da statuto eppure lo si evoca come un comportamento non regolare (se non ricordo male l'Olanda ha votato con questo ridicolo sistema). Si dimentica che comunque a Madrid c'era una maggioranza di nazioni che avrebbe comunque potuto eleggere chi voleva. Se si volesse fare un discorso serio si dovrebbe dire un altra cosa, ovvero che la volontà di rottura da parte di alcuni paesi membri ha costretto a creare un alleanza elettorale che ha portato a dovere imbarcare nel board anche persone con cui non si condivideva progetti e lavoro.

Il nostro guidatore di slitte accusa Garnier di essere stato assente negli ultimi mesi ed è vero. Detto da uno che è o è stato dirigente di una federazione praticamente inesistente e che brilla per la sua assenza è un accusa tipica del bue che dice cornuto all'asino. Vi cito qualche esempio, ad oggi e siamo a Novembre, non vi sono tornei della Finlandia in calendario FISTF, la Finlandia non risponde o risponde in forte ritardo alle comunicazioni FISTF che siano sondaggi o informative. L'unico modo di capire che questi cristiani esistono è vedere i messaggi aggressivi, insultanti e pieni di scemenze sui forum.

Il nostro hockeysta pentito sostiene che la FISTF è in una situazione drammatica. Questa è l'ennesima scemenza. I tornei continuano a svolgersi con regolarità, secondo un calendario stabilito (nel quale come detto brilla l'assenza della Finlandia) che generano un ranking preciso e assolutamente puntuale. Dopo due anni è stato ripubblicato l'Handbook. Il Dipartimento Sport diffonde mensilmente FISTF SPORT NEWS con tutti i risultati del mese precedente e le interviste ai protagonisti. Il sito FISTF ed il Forum funzionano perfettamente. Grazie al lavoro fatto Danimarca e Scozia sono tornate ad essere paesi membro e le mail di queste federazioni preoccupate per le nostre dimissioni sono una delle tante gratificazioni che mi sono arrivate in queste ultime settimane. L'accusa vera ed anche il motivo delle dimissioni di Piero e conseguentemente delle mie che l'ho costretto ad accettare l'incarico a Madrid, è che non si riesce a fare il salto di qualità, atteggiamenti vergognosi dal punto di vista disciplinare, non volontà di accettare il controllo e la regolarità dei materiali, mancanza di volontà nel cercare da parte di alcune nazioni di dotarsi si una struttura certa e seria, ecc. Tutto questo condito dall'atteggiamento non collaborativo di alcune nazioni che hanno tentato di sabotare scientificamente tutte le iniziative intraprese. Gli attacchi a Piero fatti in maniera strumentale e in mala fede sono alla base dei tentativi di aggressione ripetuti a cui lo stesso Piero è stato fatto oggetto.

Dopo le dimissioni mie e di Piero, Laurent Garnier ha deciso di seguire lo statuto FISTF e di proseguire il lavoro. Io non sono d'accordo e l'ho detto a lui e agli altri. Ritenevo che fosse stato più giusto tornare al voto. La soluzione è comunque sempre compresa nello statuto. Qualora sette nazioni ritengano di volere le elezioni possono raccogliere le firme e chiedere lo svolgimento di un congresso straordinario dove si tengano le elezioni.

Non credo che ci siano oggi nazioni in numero tale per farlo ma a me piacerebbe che le nazioni che dovessero fare questa richiesta ci dicessero anche che cosa vorrebbero fare una volta vinto questo Congresso. Le nazioni che dovessero chiedere questo (con l'eccezione del Belgio che è un paese importante e ben organizzato e non credo che stia dietro questo tentativo) sono le nazioni più in crisi e con le maggiori problematiche interne e di crescita.

Sono anche quelle che più di ogni altra hanno sabotato il tentativo di Piero e mio di fare un passo avanti.

Un ultima cosa che mi preme controbattere. Non è la prima volta che il frequentatore di stagni artici viene su questo forum a dire che gli italiani non conoscono la realtà della FISTF. (Cit.Von K. - Mi sembra che troppi nel questo forum, anche i nomi grandi e importanti, non hanno contatto con la realtà del FISTF internazionale di oggi). Detto da uno che è andato per motivi calcio tavolistici forse 3 volte fuori dal suo paese mi pare un accusa gratuita e fuori luogo. Gli italiani sanno benissimo come funzionano le cose e non hanno certo bisogno di Santa Klaus per capire cosa sta succedendo anche adesso.

Probabilmente qualora si vada a situazioni chiacchierate e a pastrocchi elettorali, l'unica iniziativa da intraprendere sarà quella di creare un nuovo soggetto internazionale, con regole certe e chiare già per essere ammessi. Le nazioni aderiranno ad un progetto ben definito e strutturato. Chi non è dentro certi parametri giocherà sotto il caminetto con i propri amici (cosa per altro bellissima).

Google translator:

I do not write virtually anything on the forum because I needed to pull the plug. I have to do it just because I read inaccuracies and fanciful reconstructions by K. Von

The friendly Finnish President who would do the FISTF (It was nominated for Madrid against Piero, from his experience and his outstanding achievement in Finland) according to his own house, without participating in any tournament, not making a beloved segment. ... and managing a nation that today as far as I know, not even a member country, Garnier accused of various things.

Our friend of Father Christmas in Madrid argues that Garnier would be guilty of falsifying the election process and cites in this regard to do to vote by phone (think of the absurd) some countries. The telephone voting is not required by statute, yet it evokes a behavior is not regular (if I remember correctly, the Netherlands has voted with this ridiculous system). They forget, however, that in Madrid there was a majority of nations that it would have been able to elect those who wanted. If you wanted to make a serious talk we should say one other thing, or that the desire to break from some member countries have had to create an electoral alliance that led to having to embark on the board also people with whom you shared projects and work.

Our driver accused of sledges Garnier have been absent in recent months and it is true. Coming from someone who is or has been manager of a virtually non-existent and that the federation is conspicuous by its absence is a typical charge of horned ox said to the donkey. We cite some examples, and we are now in November, there are no tournaments scheduled FISTF Finland, Finland does not respond or responds to communications FISTF much later that they are surveys or information. The only way to understand is that these Christians are viewing messages aggressive, insulting and full of nonsense on the forums.

Our hockeysta regretted that supports FISTF is a dramatic situation. This is yet another nonsense. The tournaments continue to take place regularly, according to a timetable (as mentioned in which shines the absence of Finland) that generate a very precise and accurate ranking. After two years he was re-released the Handbook. The Department of Sports SPORTS NEWS FISTF month spreads with all the results of the previous month and the interviews with the protagonists. The site and the Forum FISTF work perfectly. Thanks to the work done Denmark and Scotland have again become a member country and email these federations concerned for our resignation is one of the many rewards that I have arrived in recent weeks. The accusation true and the reason for the resignation of Peter and consequently of my that I had to accept the office in Madrid, is that you can not make the leap, shameful behavior from the point of view of discipline, not willingness to accept control and regularity of the materials, lack of will on the part of some nations seek to acquire a structure is certain and serious, and so on. All this topped uncooperative attitude of some nations that have tried to sabotage all the initiatives undertaken scientifically. The attacks on Piero made instrumentally and in bad faith are the basis of the repeated attempts of aggression to which Peter himself was the object.

After my resignation and Piero, Laurent Garnier has decided to follow the statute FISTF and continue the work. I do not agree and I told him and others. I thought that was more just go to vote. The solution is always included in the statute. If you want to consider seven nations elections can collect signatures and ask for the holding of an extraordinary congress to be held where the elections.

I do not think that there are now many nations to do this but I'd like that nations should make this request even tell us what they would like to do when the Congress won. The nations that ask for this (with the exception of Belgium, which is an important country and well organized and I do not think is behind this attempt) are the nations in crisis and with the major domestic issues and growth.

There are also those who more than any other sabotaged the attempt of Piero and I take a step forward.

One last thing I would like to respond. It is not the first time the visitor to Arctic ponds on this forum is to say that Italians do not know the reality of FISTF. (Cit.Von K. - I think that too many in this forum, even the big names and important, have no contact with the reality of today's international FISTF). Coming from one who went to football grounds tavolistici maybe 3 times out of his country seems out of place and free an accusation. The Italians know well how things work and some do not need Santa Claus to see what is happening even now.

Probably if you go to chat and mess electoral situations, the only action to be taken will be to create a new international body, with clear and certain rules have to be admitted. Nations to join a well-defined and structured. Who is not within certain parameters play in the fireplace with friends (another beautiful thing).

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Re: No issue?

Post  Admin on Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:19 am

I know many people don't care about politics bu Stefano's message makes me very angry because of the very bad faith in his words. Some comments:
- First of all Vesa was not candidate for president against Piero. If you remember well, Piero was not even candidate to be president before the meeting in Madrid and elections were biaized as nobody was aware of this fact.
- Finland is not a member nation? Maybe (just like Monaco) they didn't pay their membership fee because it's a way to show they don't support all the mess. The Monaco people just don't want to be part of it (at least they don't want to waste money) as long as they don't know how their money is used.
- "Falsifying the elections": if you stick to the words of the statutes, of course Garnier didn't falsify anything. But in every situation, you should not mix the statutes and the spirit of the statutes and I really believe there was no respect of the spirit of the statutes. That's why I think someone like Baudouin Heuninckx should be present everytime there are elections to give a legal advice on how texts are "manipulated".
- No tournaments in Finland: where is the problem? In Belgium, there are 3 tournaments in the agenda (1 Major, 1 GP and 1 Open) while there were 13 2 years ago (1 Major, 1 Gp, 2 Opens, 3 Satellites, 3 Challengers, 3 Futures). As long as organizers will have the feeling they are wasting money to pay higher taxes to FISTF, there will be less reasons to organize events.
- "The tournaments continue to take place": that's exactly what many people mentionned last week-end in rochefort. The majority of layers doesn't care of politics. As long as people will organize tournaments to make money for their clubs (we know big events are a good way for clubs to make money) and as long as there will be players travelling, people won't see a big difference. The reality if different: watch the number of tournaments and the number of players int he rankings. The numbers are decreasing, which proves there is something wrong.
- "The attacks on Piero". If we speak about an incident in Slovenia, several witnesses reported it was Piero who assaulted a Belgian player. Luckily this Belgian player (who is a former soldier able to kill someone in 1 second) was smart and calm enough to leave the hall to skip more incidents.
- "Laurent Garnier has decided to follow the statute FISTF and continue the work": it's funny how the interpretation of statutes can be made. If he wants to be recognized as the real president of FISTF, why should Garnier be scared to have elections? Nobody will prevent him to be candidate.
I will not even comment the last 3 paragraphs...

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Re: No issue?

Post  Kaitsu on Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:55 am

Vesa is not the President of Finnish TF Association.
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Re: No issue?

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:18 pm

Whether to laugh or cry, that is the question Shocked

I had desided not to comment on the italian forum anymore. Mainly because of people like SdF, who are not able to see anything objectively. I just saw in the discussion so little knowledge of the international situation and things happening, that I had to comment shortly. I did not comment anything else than the election regarding Garnier. Nothing about me, Piero, SdF or even Koutroumanos. It was just about Garnier's responsibility and actions during the last years. But for SdF I'm clearly the evil in flesh, and no matter what I say, it's personal, and I must be crushed. So ridiculous from a grown man (it seems only in biological age...).

I was also very disappointed by the attitude and disregard given to the "testimony" of Tagliaferri (nick djspider), who clearly has good knowledge of the actions and work of Garnier, and who along with Papini is the most informed italian in the forums regarding international situation. It seems the memories of De Angelis and Buzzi from the 90's are more imortant than the actual situation given by Capponi ("Garnier "vanished" after both elections, Frankfurt and Madrid) and Tagliaferri.

I wrote that the information regarding the issues can be asked from many Presidents and other people (regarding the election telephone vote scam, and Germany's official unanswered protest against the Madrid minutes). i urge everyone in Italy to ask, if my "twisted truth" is really twisted in these issues.

So how on earth can this guy bring such personal shit into it all. I no longer have to wonder how he has been given the nicknames he has in the Old Subbuteo forum.

I can only say, that with people like him there is no future for international compromises and unity.

He also broke his promise (yet another one) not to write anymore on the italian forum.

I challenge De Francesco here in the open to come here and discuss things in a language that is neither's own, and in territory which is not his. Subbuteonews forum is ok, too, if he has the guts to remove my ban, and start real discussion. I'd bet quite a sum that it will never happen, and he will not stay in discussion for long. We have the evidence.

My importance in the history of TF, or person, is irrelevant. Only the facts and issues talk. For SdF it's vice versa. And that, in itself, is a sign of weak and a sad soul in my book. Truly important and strong people are able to listen, discuss and compromise, based on facts and issues, without making it personal or compromising their status.

p.s. For the record, it has nothing to do with my candidacy in Madrid. For me as a person that position is irrelevant, and I'm far happier in life without the burden of FISTF. But when things are going badly in areas of life that are of interest to me (like TF), I offer to do something.

For the question in the top of this post, I'll choose laughter Very Happy It's just hilarious when you like black humour.


Last edited by von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: No issue?

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:23 pm

Admin wrote:
- "Falsifying the elections": if you stick to the words of the statutes, of course Garnier didn't falsify anything. But in every situation, you should not mix the statutes and the spirit of the statutes and I really believe there was no respect of the spirit of the statutes. That's why I think someone like Baudouin Heuninckx should be present everytime there are elections to give a legal advice on how texts are "manipulated".

He did falsify them by telling (on Friday) for example our President Teemu Sihvola that we can vote by telephone, and that he (Garnier) will call us when the vote is due on Saturday. This was because we were not sure that our voteing envelope would arrive in time. If he had not done that, we would have found another way of securing our votes counted. As some others did by using Garnier as a "postal agent" and calling him to give votes (that was given by Giufaz as the procedure). What a farce and clearly falsifying the election process by giving false promises and information as offical FISTF information.

How is it possible, mr. Stefano De Francesco, that Garnier didn't know this about the statutes on Friday, when he promised the telephone votes?

What a farce!

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Re: No issue?

Post  Lorenzo on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:34 pm

As far as the incident in Slovenia is concerned, I was told by direct and extremely reliable witnesses that Piero first received an unprovoked push by a Belgian player, and then returned it with equal or greater strenght.
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Re: No issue?

Post  Admin on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:55 pm

@Lorenzo: Just got a totally different version. The incident started when Guerrero told the Belgian he was not allowed to play with his figures and the player became unhappy. At this time, Capponi came "to show who's the boss" and added some more provocation, using his "title of president" against a guy "who just has to obey orders". That's extremely unacceptable.

@Vesa: Garnier will tell you he didn't falsify anything because when he knew (after he told you you could vote by phone) an interpretation of the statutes would prevent using the vote by phone, he was right to change his mind Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: No issue?

Post  maxischn on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:58 pm

i always knew that you finns are the source of all evil! Twisted Evil
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Re: No issue?

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:24 pm

Kaitsu, the google translator is wrong. SdF wrote that I wanted to be President of FISTF, not that the President of Finland wanted to be President of FISTF. So, the misunderstanding is due to google. Nice one from the translator, of course.

The more I read the nonsense, the more misbelief I get. How can a Sports director say Finland is not a member? We are and have been for several years now. How's that for knowledge of international situation Razz

I also appreciate (priceless!) the fact that he blames Finland for not having competitions or responding slowly to his surveys (which are useless by any real survey meter, as they are clearly done without knowing the basics of objective surveying). But how about FISTF, then? We have sent official question to De Francesco about the fact that we will wait until later to decide the date for our competition(s), if it is ok with him. No reply, even an ok. And how about Garnier, the communicator etc.

And how is it worse that I have not done anything for FISTF, when I haven't been given the chance, but have put myself on the line, and put myself as a target for this sort of personal attacks, than that Garnier has done nothing when being elected to the BoD for the last 2 years? And the defence for Garniers past years by saying we can't judge him yet, are in deep logical contrast with the fact that I have been judged without even asking what I, de facto, would do, let alone by giving me a chance. Beats my logic.

I also like the fact, SdF underlines the problem i wrote about, that a person in FISTF BoD can attack an individual calling him friend of Father Christams, calling him a hockey-man (I despise the whole sport and its status in Finland, by the way) and attacks with senseless propaganda the whole TF country of Finland. This seems to him the correct approach as a person in a position of trust, towards a member nation for which he, in fact, is supposed to work. The nations are the employer of the BoD.

The sad thing is that in Italy there are so many decent people who could contribute positively to FISTF, but a person or a few are destroying the possibility of unified collaboration with quite mindless and factless rants. It easily destroys the possibility for Italy to be respected important factor in a better FISTF, which Italy would have to be, for FISTF to be healthy.

One last thing I find funny, is that if I'm so irrelevant, then what is the need to attack my person so badly... But he shouldn't worry about me. FISTF is less and less compelling every passing minute.

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Re: No issue?

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:54 pm

Admin wrote:
@Vesa: Garnier will tell you he didn't falsify anything because when he knew (after he told you you could vote by phone) an interpretation of the statutes would prevent using the vote by phone, he was right to change his mind Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Sorry, Vincent, you are wrong. I wouldn't bet that Garnier tells anything to me, Finland or many others Twisted Evil

That explanation, of course, would not stand in court as a defence. It would stand as defence for the legality (according to statutes) of the election for FISTF as a federation, but it would not save him from having provided wrong information as official, and also possibly gained advantage himself by doing that. Also, according to the finnish association law and couple of finnish lawyers I asked about this (just for information purposes from people I know), this would not stand if someone complained officially.

But the thing about Garnier, in this case, is not the courts or election results. It's the credibility. If he doesn't know the statutes at all (as it seemed), what has he done in FISTF in the last 20 years? And if he has done the job well, then it's clearly planned action. Logical cul-de-sac. scratch

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Re: No issue?

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 pm

As the comment by SdF clearly insulted me, and has made me think it over a bit, I remembered another thing.

The person, SdF, who regards my country and me as nobodys and people lacking any brains for any kind of work for FISTF was also the person who 1 day before the Madrid elections wanted me to be the General Secretary of FISTF in a BoD of his choice!

It really tells everything about the motives.

By the way, I declined, as I also declined from all other proposals regarding a "fixed" BoD, because I had candidated as President when the official time limit set by then BoD was up (a month before the elections, maybe), and I considered changing position or "fixing" against the principles of elections by person, which are written in the Statutes.

If he wants me in a BoD, but I decline and doing that I throw away a sealed place in a BoD, then perhaps it tells also something about the motives, intentions, honour and the ability of persons involved.

Perhaps I'm now finished with things popping up regarding this.


Last edited by von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: No issue?

Post  zinga on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:10 pm

I posted the following in subbuteoforum.it. I expect it to dissappear so at least here you can read it.
- - -
Dear Stefano,

As the president of TFA of Finland I must respond to your post, as it included many inaccuracies. I hope that at least some of the inaccuracies are misunderstandings due to translations as I am not native in Italian.

First, Mr. Kouvonkorpi is not the president of our association as you should know. Also, Mr. Kouvonkorpi was not candidate against Mr. Capponi. For instance, I voted (or at least tried to vote) both of them in the election. If we had known that Mr. Capponi is canditate for the presidency, he could have had our vote.

Second, I am surprised by your information that we are not a member nation of FISTF as i) we have paid our annual fee, ii) latest Handbook lists us as a member nation, and ii) no one from FISTF has informed me that we have been suspended.

Third, I have informed you that we have not yet decided the date of our GP in the season 2011-2012 as we have decided to move the competition from May to August. We have organized GP and IO annually since 2007 and have had many wonderful players for instance from Italy. Cheers to them! I have sent an e-mail regarding Helsinki Open 2012 date to FISTF sports director, but I did not receive any reply.

Fourth, as far as I know, I have answered to all FISTF surveys in time and sent all forms in time. However, I cannot be sure as all FISTF e-mails did not come to me before Luis started as a communications director. It would help if FISTF had an official forum for communications as that would be good channel.

Fifth, I know that we, Finland, are not the biggest country in Table Football even though our number of players and clubs per population is one of the largest in the world. I fully understand that countries such as Italy and Belgium are the main motors of global Table Football. On the other hand, I am sure that without smaller nations you will destroy the table football as a global game in the near future. I hope that this is not your agenda.

By the way, I am more than proud of our national circuit where we have many active clubs competing. We have been lucky to have players from Italy, Greece and Australia participating in our circuit. I am sure that you will only hear positive things from those players. You can also ask anyone who has played in our IO or GP if it is worthwhile to come and play in the land of Father Christmas. You are also warmly welcomed.

With best regards,
Teemu Sihvola
president, TFA of Finland
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Re: No issue?

Post  Thossa on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:50 pm

It is really shocking to read all this stuff. I can understand how our friends from Finland must feel after all that humbug. Of course it is only a new chapter in the golden book of clumsiness. Remember, yesterday it was Germany as SdF´s beloved issue of dispute, today it is Finland and tomorrow...?

But I am more afraid of the future of our sport. Where are going to?

I really think the future for FISTF ended in January 2010 in Frankfurt after the EGM. Within less than two years the following people leave behind a complete mess: Capponi, Catania, Collins, de Francesco, Garnier, Koutromanos. They are guilty in destroying the future of FISTF with there incompetance, arrogance, obvious falsehood, extravagance in wasting time and money.

It will take years and years for a coming new FISTF BoD - hopefully very soon composed out of fresh people and respectable persons - to repair the elemental lost of credibility and trust.

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Re: No issue?

Post  Admin on Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:03 pm

Go WASPA! lol!

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Re: No issue?

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