Letter of Laurent Garnier

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  the dwarf on Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:02 pm

January, July... who cares Question
Mons, Vienna, Paris... doesn't matter Exclamation
skype, forums, internet... devil's stuff Twisted Evil

Money is an unlimited resource in professional sports and one thing is for sure: the president is always right...!!! cheers

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  manu on Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:53 pm

i
Thossa wrote:Just a try, now: I am interested in to know with country/ association (except of France) will send a representive to Paris. Please reply Exclamation

Even France....

not sure there will be someone except Laurent as nobody know anything and care about FISTF...

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  von K. on Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:33 pm

Thossa wrote:
Just a try, now: I am interested in to know with country/ association (except of France) will send a representive to Paris. Please reply Exclamation

Not official yet, but it seems Finland will not be there. The date is bad, and the money is tight. The association can't pay, and none of us is a millionaire (as far as I know).

If there is EGM in Mons, the chances of us participating (in flesh) are higher.

With the current economical atmosphere in Europe I would think very carefully about these things. It's quite clear that many people don't have the possibility even to travel for tournaments, then why travel to a meeting with dubious importance (because of the BoD situation)?

A net meeting would be far more fruitful with far higher percentage of members present. And there is nothing stopping that possibility, if there are no elections. Of course, everyone knows personal meetings are better, but are they the reality in a global federation with extremely limited financial resources.

And I have to add that judging by the meeting/EGM/whatever in Rain, a personal meeting can be just as bad as a forum discussion.

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Thossa on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:23 pm

von K. wrote:
And I have to add that judging by the meeting/EGM/whatever in Rain, a personal meeting can be just as bad as a forum discussion.

That´s quiet true!!! I was too much pissed off of it and I decided to leave that "no congress" and better watched the FIFA EC-qualification match BEL vs GER Razz
I was witness of the EGM in Frankfurt, too. It was the same wasting of time and money for all participants and of couse the FISTF account like the EGM in Madrid one year later. We have overdo things in this matter. Too much.

von K. wrote:
A net meeting would be far more fruitful with far higher percentage of members present. And there is nothing stopping that possibility, if there are no elections. Of course, everyone knows personal meetings are better, but are they the reality in a global federation with extremely limited financial resources.

This is a very good attempt. People spent a lot of time with their computers and the internet. It´s cheaper and more effective for FISTF to work here then to travel for boring and meaningless "round tables" with a lost of much money. People are able to create very good ideas or show different views on topic via chat rooms or forums. I wouldn´t count on a face-to-face-strategy, I would invest hope in the internet community to rebuilt FISTF in a new aera. Modern and open.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Admin on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:29 pm

Thossa wrote:...I would invest hope in the internet community to rebuilt FISTF in a new aera. Modern and open.
Back in 2002, the Internet was already the Board's best friend. Rolling Eyes Not Garnier's... Laughing

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:25 am

Just a try, now: I am interested in to know with country/ association (except of France) will send a representive to Paris. Please reply Exclamation

Just a thought:
What about going even one step further... Which countries are ready to call for an extraordinary Congress for Friday in Frameries?
If there are enough countries on the list, the meeting in Paris is completely useless anyway and loads of money can be saved.
Apart from that, it's just what Piero asked for in order to find his successor...

And I read it somewhere else: If Garnier is confident enough of his abilities and of the belief to be the right person at the right time, what could he be afraid of...?

And meanwhile (approx. 10 weeks) we could use this modern stuff like the internet to prepare things and ourselves...

What do you think?
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  kechris on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:01 am

I think that at first we must find persons for the job and after the meeting place and time.

and i also think that we must find for how long they will stay in BoD before elections.

i hope after many years with resign of BoD members that all of us we are more clever for the future. I hope...

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:07 am

kechris wrote:I think that at first we must find persons for the job and after the meeting place and time.

and i also think that we must find for how long they will stay in BoD before elections.

i hope after many years with resign of BoD members that all of us we are more clever for the future. I hope...



I agree.
Unfortunately everything seems completley poisoned now... Anyone will have a very difficult task to build up new trust in the BoD...
Who is ready to take a place in the Board?
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Kaitsu on Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:47 am

By now most of the people around the world are familiar with computer and internet stuff and people are able to contact other people around the globe for free or with very low price instead of spending lot of time and money.

Most of us also know that while using quick messaging software the conversation is easier to manage and easier to follow no matter how good or bad your english is. It's also possible to save the whole conversation and publish it (fully or partly) for the rest of the community.

If we think any global federation (or similar) and wonder how they share the information between thousands of km's the answer is a proper use and taking advance of morend says technology.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Thossa on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:19 pm

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Who is ready to take a place in the Board?

Not me Very Happy
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  von K. on Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Belgium already informed FISTF officially that they want an EGM. I think it's easy to join that for enough nations, so that we'll see if Garnier has the support he would need.

Marcus is also correct, that there is a lot of time to talk about people. But this will not be done, if there is no fixed date for elections. FISTF will just linger on with Garnier until 2015. Fine, if that's really wanted. But if it isn't, then things will be decided, or things will not be done, by this "BoD" (not really a fully working BoD). This is why I disagree with Kostas.

The people, then. It's quite clear the situation is like Marcus wrote: poisoned. The only way I see things healed is with wide collaboration which includes much more people than the BoD. It's quite clear that we need commissions that have people from all sorts of countries participating. We also need the sort of people who can run it with the right attitude. Those who ask what I/we can do for FISTF, and not what FISTF can do for me/us. The decisions have to be prepared well. They have to be opened for discussion and comments in forums before the final decision, to get people prepared, and also to find out, if some angle has been forgotten.

It's the only way I see the tension getting relieved. And tension is what causes most of the problems in FISTF. We can see it from reports of tournaments, and even though some people say everything runs smoothly in the sports area, it's clear that the problem is affecting also that. I personally didn't need more than the Rain World Cup, to know that. You'd have to be blind not to see it.

I don't know all the possible people in the FISTF world, who could contribute to a better FISTF. So I opened the topic about it here. Maybe it would be time to put some names up (maybe not in a forum, I don't know if that's a problem, but I saw also John Lauder do that), and then start gathering people by asking them to participate. Not by waiting for people to take part themselves.

(By better, I mean a more unified one, which truly takes into consideration that FISTF is supposed to be a global federation. And I mean a FISTF where issues are decided by argumentation, and where the person behind an idea makes no difference, if the idea is good.)

I could see myself doing something for FISTF, but only if the procedures are developed into the direction of unifying FISTF. And if there are enough persons with correct attitude (positive, altruistic, compromising, listening, discussing, respecting etc.) willing to help.

Thinking only about the BoD members means FISTF is probably continuing this slide. It's too narrow perspective, and leaves too many people/members out creating bad blood.

Kaitsu wrote:taking advance of morend says technology.

Google translator attacked Kaitsu's keyboard What a Face

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Janus_Gersie on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:55 am

For me the sitution regarding the meeting in Paris is clear:

No agenda = no participation !

I don't go to Paris without being prepared for the stuff to be discussed. The letter is a as usual nice, bad translated and without any content.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Janus_Gersie on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:16 am

Taken from the SN forum from SdF:
"... I am curious to know how many presidents of the federations will play the Grand Prix of Austria. If a federation it is unable to send a person to a meeting of his international federation it is better that make a "mea culpa"......

The truth is that everything is used to cause problems by the same people. These people have poisoned the movement.

I don't think that will be easy this time for the "layabouts" to find seven nations for calling an EGM....

For same nations calling EGM it is the only form of life..........."

Well, this statement expresses a lot of the believes of the writer:
1. In his opinion all presidents have to run when the president of the federation is calling (even an unelected ...)

2. He still believes the rest of the world is the bad one ("...everything is used to cause problems..."). In my opinion the loss of democracy has poisoned the movement. And SdF was a strong part of the way to poison it.

3. The last two phrases are just pure bullshit: May I remind each and everybody that Italy was part of the first call for an EGM in Frankfurt ! And Spain called two times for an EGM. Don't throw with stones when sitting in the glasshouse!

4. And he should ask himself WHY it could be hard to get seven nations calling for an EGM. I know the answer: we lost more and more asssociations along the way in the last 22 months. And he was part of that movement.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  kechris on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:52 am

von K. wrote:
Marcus is also correct, that there is a lot of time to talk about people. But this will not be done, if there is no fixed date for elections. FISTF will just linger on with Garnier until 2015. Fine, if that's really wanted. But if it isn't, then things will be decided, or things will not be done, by this "BoD" (not really a fully working BoD). This is why I disagree with Kostas.

Dear Vesa you forgot that the last time when took place the EGM the SAME PERSONS elected in elections.
So if one or seven or million countries ask EGM for elections then all these countries must have a list of candidates.
No elections and the last time looking for candidates.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  the dwarf on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:53 am

Janus_Gersie wrote:Well, this statement expresses a lot of the believes of the writer:
1. In his opinion all presidents have to run when the president of the federation is calling (even an unelected ...)

this is because THE PRESIDENT IS ALWAYS RIGHT Twisted Evil

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  von K. on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:19 pm

kechris wrote:
von K. wrote:
Marcus is also correct, that there is a lot of time to talk about people. But this will not be done, if there is no fixed date for elections. FISTF will just linger on with Garnier until 2015. Fine, if that's really wanted. But if it isn't, then things will be decided, or things will not be done, by this "BoD" (not really a fully working BoD). This is why I disagree with Kostas.

Dear Vesa you forgot that the last time when took place the EGM the SAME PERSONS elected in elections.
So if one or seven or million countries ask EGM for elections then all these countries must have a list of candidates.
No elections and the last time looking for candidates.

Kostas, the BoD before elections in Madrid consisted of about 3 people, of which maybe 1 active (Catania), who resigned before Madrid. And there was also the issue with the Sports Director being overrun completely in sports matters by Catania. So, EGM was necessary.

This time it's the same. Garnier has clearly not got the support he needs, so the support for him needs to be tested in elections. The key people (to who's work and ideas the BoD was based on) have also resigned from the BoD. So, the elections are a must.

If you look at how the candidates have popped up before the elections, and what the activity to find suitable candidates has been the past 2 years, you see that it doesn't happen, if there is no clear date and deadline.

The last BoD that was created well beforehand, and elected against the statutes as a block, was Catania's. What good did that do?

And if you want to waste a year for maybe, just maybe, finding out who could be candidates before calling for EGM, then you have to live with a year of administration and decisions by the people who are now in power.

If you are in the process of gathering candidates, then I'm sure we can wait a week or two. But if there is nothing happening, this makes things move more quickly. Then we have to start asking for people to candidate.

Who is elected makes no difference to any of this. If the same guys are elected, then it's the will of the members, that are FISTF. And if the only candidates are Garnier, Koutroumanos etc, then that's just the reality. That's democracy. (Must add that the elections must of course follow decent procedure, which wasn't the case in Madrid.)

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  von K. on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:59 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:Taken from the SN forum from SdF:
"... I am curious to know how many presidents of the federations will play the Grand Prix of Austria. If a federation it is unable to send a person to a meeting of his international federation it is better that make a "mea culpa"......

The truth is that everything is used to cause problems by the same people. These people have poisoned the movement.

I don't think that will be easy this time for the "layabouts" to find seven nations for calling an EGM....

For same nations calling EGM it is the only form of life..........."

Well, this statement expresses a lot of the believes of the writer:
1. In his opinion all presidents have to run when the president of the federation is calling (even an unelected ...)

2. He still believes the rest of the world is the bad one ("...everything is used to cause problems..."). In my opinion the loss of democracy has poisoned the movement. And SdF was a strong part of the way to poison it.

3. The last two phrases are just pure bullshit: May I remind each and everybody that Italy was part of the first call for an EGM in Frankfurt ! And Spain called two times for an EGM. Don't throw with stones when sitting in the glasshouse!

4. And he should ask himself WHY it could be hard to get seven nations calling for an EGM. I know the answer: we lost more and more asssociations along the way in the last 22 months. And he was part of that movement.

I think we'll need a shovel to get through all this s***.

The same berlusconian style propaganda, without any touch, or knowledge, of reality in many countries (such as Finland) has been going on in the italian forum (lead by him) since I started to read it. And it has also continued after the post Vincent put here.

As you could see for example from the post Vincent copied, the comments of this person are not based on any facts, and after corrected, like our President did there, he has no honour to apologize or even acknowledge that he lied about the membership of Finland (if he doens't know it, and the other members of FISTF, then he must be demented...).

The most damaging thing for the FISTF is that it affects the judgement and the opinion of even the more intelligent people there, as most of them are not in touch with the true international discussions (not happening in SN, but here, and previously in the FISTF forum). Things like "let's now give the support to the people in BoD (means Garnier etc), the support that was not given to Stefano and Piero..." from a writer that even I regard highly, are just depressing.

For example, us layabout finns who only wake up after elections, have been banned all, because we try to be active. And our President also informed them (note that it was even after Madrid) that he will be happy to help in the work for writing new statutes. No comment, no thank you for the offer, and in the end no sign of new statutes which were considered a priority, because of the problems in Madrid elections etc.

What support did Stefano end Piero give to the previous BoD? They reacted by calling for EGM, because things were not done their way. And what did Stefano do to make the FISTF council work? What did Stefano do in Rain to make things run smoothly (after he had resigned as sports director some days before without anyone filling in), when the disagreement of rules about the team event did arise? He shouted that the competition will be cancelled! Who as a BoD member promised elections in Rain, but then vetoed there that Italy will leave FISTF, if there are elections. What is the difference?

I also wonder what is the difference when I say that I feel too many (not all) italians are not well aware of the international situation, and then he says it himself. When I say it, he says it's bullshit, and attacks me personally. Then he uses the same reason to "understand" the people who are not sharing his opinion.

I think that you would be astonished by some things written by him, if you all followed the italian forum. But also you would get a good picture of some things, if you asked the italian old players about certain things (cum grano salis, as always, of course) Shocked

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Thossa on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:53 pm

Well pointed, Vesa.

But the aera SdF in FISTF BoD is defently over and we can not breathe freely.

I am very sure we will see new elections in 2012, one way or another, but I don´t think it will happen in early 2012.

First of all we have to wait and see how the invitation of Garnier to his January-meeting in Paris will be accepted by the associations. We have further wait and see if the rest BoD is able to work together after a sucessless start of Garniers charming offensive. We should take a focus on Koutromanos as well. It looks like he is locked out of this BoD. So we have actually only Garnier, Horta & Vulpes as active BoD-members and an indefinable number of ad interim BoD-members. An unpleasant basis for a fruitful work actually.

If Garnier will registrate he has no support, trust etc. (BTW he has not even a mandate as president) it could happen we will see a next resignment. Luís Horta is a well known for a quick resign. Not impossible if we need one day in 2012 a new communication director.

Yes, the athmosphere is poisoned and thank you Janus for your glasshouse-metapher, but of cause a lot of other people have to look who´s talking.

Probably the ship FISTF is not already deep enough sunken before we can speak about a new dawn... sadly, but I fear.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  kechris on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:45 pm

Vesa i insist.

We must found the perfect persons for the job, after we must vote them.
Many persons like me don't dream the chair but the work.

I have many ideas for better rules (stop illegal-unfair game), for better tournaments but i refuse to be canditate if i cann't work in my plans.
I love table soccer no chairs.
I hate illegal keepers, i hate different rules in every country, i hate tournaments with only two matches for weak players, i hate W.C and E.C with 25% of competitors of the same country.
The last years we lost time in elections. Now we must select the best president and the best directors to "wake up" the game.

We need persons for hard work and with big 'balls'. Third time i write the same. Before Rain and Madrid was the first two times.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  von K. on Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:21 pm

kechris wrote:Vesa i insist.

We must found the perfect persons for the job, after we must vote them.
Many persons like me don't dream the chair but the work.

I have many ideas for better rules (stop illegal-unfair game), for better tournaments but i refuse to be canditate if i cann't work in my plans.
I love table soccer no chairs.
I hate illegal keepers, i hate different rules in every country, i hate tournaments with only two matches for weak players, i hate W.C and E.C with 25% of competitors of the same country.
The last years we lost time in elections. Now we must select the best president and the best directors to "wake up" the game.

We need persons for hard work and with big 'balls'. Third time i write the same. Before Rain and Madrid was the first two times.

Kostas, I forgot to add, that I understand your view of first finding proper people. I simply see the situation different than you. In a different situation, I could agree with that.

I also didn't mean you personally should be a candidate. I just don't see people coming up with candidates before an EGM is called. My point answering you was only to doubt if candidates can be found, if no election is called first. But it's a matter of opinion, and no facts about that can exist in either direction.

About many of the basic problems, and many things written about the needed people, I agree with you.

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:45 am

@Vesa and @Kostas:
if I get you right, you both agree on the need of new elections and your discussion is kind of tactical thing which would be the best way to do the whole procedure... Am I right?

We are probably closer to new elections and an EGM than everybody is thinking. I just checked the handbook and I found this:

12-1 The FISTF Board of Directors shall include the following members:
. One President; and
. One General Secretary; and
. One Vice-President in charge of promotion and marketing; and
. One Vice-President in charge of sports matters; and
. One Vice-President in charge of communication; and
. One Vice-President in charge of financial matters.

12-7 Should the President resign or be impeached from exercising his duties, the Vice-President who has
been a member of the Board of Directors for the longest period shall take over his duties up to the
next Congress. The next Congress shall elect a new President.

Reading these two parts of our statutes it's quite clear for me that Laurent CAN'T be the president ad interim because he was no Vice-President. He had been elected as General Secretary!
The handbook is not clear what happens if FISTF has no president, but new elections shall be the only possibility...

Am I right giufaz? Where are you when we need you?

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:32 am

Marcus Tilgner wrote:Am I right giufaz? Where are you when we need you?

I love your last sentence! In my opinion he showed us the way from a "legal representative" to a "pettifogger". At least he left us alone with a lot of open questions ...

Once again Marcus' statement proves we need new elections to heal an uncomfortable situation. But I would like to see the board coming up with the request for new elections. An EGM would not be the best option because it could help for another "block thinking" what we have to avoid.
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Admin on Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:13 am

12-7 Should the President resign or be impeached from exercising his duties, the Vice-President who has been a member of the Board of Directors for the longest period shall take over his duties up to the next Congress. The next Congress shall elect a new President.
Fred Vulpes for President!!!

According to the statutes, Fred is therefore the FISTF President! Very Happy

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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  Thomas Vulpes on Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:13 pm

lol!
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Re: Letter of Laurent Garnier

Post  kechris on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:17 pm

Marcus Tilgner wrote:

Reading these two parts of our statutes it's quite clear for me that Laurent CAN'T be the president ad interim because he was no Vice-President. He had been elected as General Secretary!
The handbook is not clear what happens if FISTF has no president, but new elections shall be the only possibility...


I love you Marcus.
Maybe is better "I LOVE YOUR BRAIN MARCUS".
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