People for a positive FISTF future

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  von K. on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:09 pm

FISTF is Garnier's "baby" in some way. After all, from what I understand, he remains the only "active" administrator of those who started FISTF. He hasn't understood that at some point it is good to let the children go their way. I'm just guessing the motives, which is not very fruitful, of course.

Lorenzo wrote:
I found Piero’s comment about the grounds that moved him to quit a bit puzzling, as well. Did he think that he could change the old ways in a matter of months? I shared most of his ideals, but I always gave it for granted that the process of transformation would take several years at best.

I don't judge the ideals of Capponi and De Francesco. They just have to understand that FISTF is not about a few persons ideals. Many people have different ideals. Rome wasn't built in a day.

If the course of development had been slower, with baby steps towards more professionalism taking into consideration the whole FISTF, it would not have caused such controversy. And in the end I don't see any problem with a more professional tour, but then there has to be also an amateur tour for those who are not looking for the same level. Otherwise you get division, which only damages a small game.

At the moment, instead of professionalism in the game, I would like to see more professionalism in how things are decided, ideas developed, a global federation run and other people respected. Those things have been amateurish, and are far more important at the moment than the professionalism regarding the external. Without a healthy foundation, common ground and wide co-operation which leaves room for compromises it is not possible to achieve any greater heights just by changing rules of tournament organisation etc.

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Thossa on Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:22 pm

The only acceptable people in the current FISTF BoD are in my opinion Luís Horta and Fred Vulpes. Both deserve the trust of the community I think. The rest of them is "just over".

But, as long as nobody is interested in to lead FISTF into shallowed water, Luís and Fred are only part of a bad crew.

The call for new elections in Mons is senseless, if no alternative grew up very quickly.

My wish is to involve Luís and Fred as "good workers" into a new BoD of fresh and clear thinking people for a better future of FISTF.

Let´s hope a new genaration will take the chance, otherwise I fear, we will sink into the ground.

BTW @ Vesa: If FISTF is Garniers "Baby", I must say without any doubt "he was a bad father".

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:32 am

Thossa wrote:
BTW @ Vesa: If FISTF is Garniers "Baby", I must say without any doubt "he was a bad father".

Prost! afro

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  kechris on Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:47 am

Dear Janus
I gave an answer to Heinz with statutes of handbook and i used an example from the past.
But everybody know that i wrote many times in past for the future.
Pierro Stefano Silvio and Alan retired in past but they aren't responsible. We are responsible because we voted them. "WE" is the table soccer community.
Table soccer the last two years is closer to death than ever. Where is Great Britain? where is portugal?
where is Nederlands? where is France? where is Scandinavia countries?
We need a new REAL restart but we want only chairs.
The last ten years nothing changed for better results.
No rules no equipment no promotion.

So before you ask elections, we must found the persons who can drive table soccer to future.
No again BoD without 6 elected members.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:22 am

kechris wrote:Dear Janus
I gave an answer to Heinz with statutes of handbook and i used an example from the past.

Maybe you can also show me the part you refer on with your statement about Luis!? That would be a great step from your end.

thx
Heinz

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Lorenzo on Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:48 pm

von K. wrote:If the course of development had been slower, with baby steps towards more professionalism taking into consideration the whole FISTF, it would not have caused such controversy [...] I would like to see more professionalism in how things are decided, ideas developed, a global federation run and other people respected. Those things have been amateurish, and are far more important at the moment than the professionalism regarding the external.

I agree. On the other side, the opposition’s unbridled remonstrations played a role in the process.
If one feels himself continually harassed, he becomes aggressive and unresponsive in turn.

And if we had a healthier electoral mechanism, Garnier and Koutrumanos would be never accepted in the Board. Supported by collaborative members, Piero and Stefano would probably be able to develop their ideas in a more constructive way.

von K. wrote:And in the end I don't see any problem with a more professional tour, but then there has to be also an amateur tour for those who are not looking for the same level. Otherwise you get division, which only damages a small game.

Exactly my idea. That’s why I think we need an entertainement category.

drastis wrote:Your understanding is certainly faulty. Greek players could not oppose that "strong-willed" approach of FISTF BoD gang and they bowed their heads and accepted their fate.

Drastis, it may be as you say, even if it is hard for us to grasp the Greek situation, since self-criticism and objectivity seem to be equally alien to all factions involved.

Even if you are right, after so many years of unrelented strife, all the fruitless attempts that have been made to help Greece to find peace, and with the world cup hovering over the horizon, sacrificing the interests of one of the groups concerned may have been a fair price to pay. I will go farther and say that it may have been the one way to accomplish any result.

Please don’t take this personally, but if Greeks had solved their own differences by themselves, no external intervention would be necessary.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:19 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:If the course of development had been slower, with baby steps towards more professionalism taking into consideration the whole FISTF, it would not have caused such controversy [...] I would like to see more professionalism in how things are decided, ideas developed, a global federation run and other people respected. Those things have been amateurish, and are far more important at the moment than the professionalism regarding the external.

I agree. On the other side, the opposition’s unbridled remonstrations played a role in the process.
If one feels himself continually harassed, he becomes aggressive and unresponsive in turn.

True, but this, of course, goes both ways. The disrespect, the electoral hustle in Madrid, along with earlier broken promises (for example of elections in Rain that also Capponi and De Francesco promised), and lack of unifying actions after Madrid (no proper minutes, only legally highly fishy comments from the BoD side regarding the procedure, and zero clarifications) meant that many people became aggressive and unresponsive in return.

I believe the same thing, lack of collaboration and real search of consensus with compromises, happened also between Coppenolle's last BoD and for example Italy. I can't say who is to blame for every different situation, and it is not necessary also. I only know why I reacted the way I did after Madrid. In some parts due to private communication that showed lack of honour and integrity when the truth of Madrid became clear.

These things are something FISTF world must get rid of. And the best way is to change the way of making decisions to something that gets more people and members involved and behind them. The past must be dealt with and closed, so new things can have room without the burden of history.

Lorenzo wrote:
drastis wrote:Your understanding is certainly faulty. Greek players could not oppose that "strong-willed" approach of FISTF BoD gang and they bowed their heads and accepted their fate.

Drastis, it may be as you say, even if it is hard for us to grasp the Greek situation, since self-criticism and objectivity seem to be equally alien to all factions involved.

Even if you are right, after so many years of unrelented strife, all the fruitless attempts that have been made to help Greece to find peace, and with the world cup hovering over the horizon, sacrificing the interests of one of the groups concerned may have been a fair price to pay. I will go farther and say that it may have been the one way to accomplish any result.

Please don’t take this personally, but if Greeks had solved their own differences by themselves, no external intervention would be necessary.

Lorenzo, what I have heard from a person who just wants to play and have fair things, the situation and development in Greece has been something I couldn't accept if it happened to me. And I doubt you could either. I don't know the past which has developed this today, of course. But the last BoD of FISTF did much more search into this problem with Janus, and the conclusion was very different from what the FISTF BoD of Koutroumanos did. Surprising? Not really. Just very probably bias.

If you accept people forcing their view with more money for lawyers (the same with the elections in Madrid, which I asked about from a lawyer, and he said it was illegal, but I have no money nor interest to spend on that), place in the BoD and maybe with other means, then you accept that democracy is not used. I understand what you mean, but I can't accept bending the rules, to get the "peace" of the more powerful, and not real peace.

I can't say if the egg or the chicken was first, but the way FISTF BoD handled it was far from equal, neutral and objective.

But maybe we can skip the greek thing or continue it in some other topic. Things get too badly mixed here many times.

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:35 pm

von K. wrote:... The disrespect, the electoral hustle in Madrid, along with earlier broken promises (for example of elections in Rain that also Capponi and De Francesco promised), and lack of unifying actions after Madrid (no proper minutes, only legally highly fishy comments from the BoD side regarding the procedure, and zero clarifications) meant that many people became aggressive and unresponsive in return.

I believe the same thing, lack of collaboration and real search of consensus with compromises, happened also between Coppenolle's last BoD and for example Italy. I can't say who is to blame for every different situation, and it is not necessary also. I only know why I reacted the way I did after Madrid. In some parts due to private communication that showed lack of honour and integrity when the truth of Madrid became clear.

These things are something FISTF world must get rid of. And the best way is to change the way of making decisions to something that gets more people and members involved and behind them. The past must be dealt with and closed, so new things can have room without the burden of history.

All the above mentioned topics have one thing in common: they happened on the "legislative" level of FISTF. I would like to propose we should split discussion and views into two topics: the legislative and the executive view.

I am sure we can more easily find a common platform for the executive way of view. We all would like to have smooth tournaments, an almost full tournament calendar and a lot of different places to go for tournaments. This is what FISTF already can offer. We also have almost cristal clear tournament guidelines and clear rules to follow (e.g. handbook). The playing rules of the game are also almost clear. For me the executive level of our federation is still healthy. Some smaller adjustments needed, but nothing serious AT THE MOMENT.

In a first step we have to focus on the legislative level. In order to find the right people we have to ask ourselves a few questions:
- Where are we right now ?
Easy answer: A bundle of several more or less professional organised national associations with lots of decentralised interests.
- What do we have to do first ?
Also easy answer: for the global scale of tablefootball most possible bundling of common interests. As we have several standards on how national associations are organised it can only be the lowest common denominator ! The weakest link of a chain determines the whole chain ! This is mainly regarding the acting people. Some of us are spending a lot of time and others not.
The legislative should stand for: easy communication, clear rules and almost consensus in all relevant matters.
- Where do we want to go ?
This topic may be the critical path. It implies a clear strategy (on business level, not on personal level!) on how to develop on several levels. FISTF could define a professional way and - at the same time - could go for an "entertainment" way. Both do not contradict !
The best example for me is football: it is organised on a common platform with "permeability" for entertainment reasons (in the local leagues) and professionals (on a wider international scale). Both do not contradict!

If we talk about people we should find a healthy mixture to answer all the above mentioned questions.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  kechris on Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:59 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
kechris wrote:Dear Janus
I gave an answer to Heinz with statutes of handbook and i used an example from the past.

Maybe you can also show me the part you refer on with your statement about Luis!? That would be a great step from your end.

thx
Heinz

OK
I BORED TO ANSWER IN FOOL QUESTIONS.
ARTICLE 12 IN HANDBOOK OF FISTF:
PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENTS AND GENERAL SECRETARY ARE ELECTED NO SELECTED.
CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?
PRESIDENT CAN SELECT PERSONS FOR PARTNERS BUT ONLY THE ELECTED MEMBERS BY CONGRESS CAN VOTE.
IT IS SO SIMPLE
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  maxischn on Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:52 pm

12-8 Should one of the Vice-Presidents or the General Secretary resign or be impeached from exercising his
duties, the President shall appoint his successor. The latter shall be appointed up to the end term of
the resigning or impeached Vice-President.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:32 pm

thx for answerring instead of me Markus.

Kostas, think before you tell me that I ask foolish questions.
Think before you quote a part of our statutes out of the whole context.

You aren't even able to answer foolish questions totally right.

Heinz

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
kechris wrote:Dear Janus
I gave an answer to Heinz with statutes of handbook and i used an example from the past.

Maybe you can also show me the part you refer on with your statement about Luis!? That would be a great step from your end.

thx
Heinz

OK
I BORED TO ANSWER IN FOOL QUESTIONS.
ARTICLE 12 IN HANDBOOK OF FISTF:
PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENTS AND GENERAL SECRETARY ARE ELECTED NO SELECTED.
CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE?
PRESIDENT CAN SELECT PERSONS FOR PARTNERS BUT ONLY THE ELECTED MEMBERS BY CONGRESS CAN VOTE.
IT IS SO SIMPLE

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Admin on Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:39 pm

maxischn wrote:12-8 Should one of the Vice-Presidents or the General Secretary resign or be impeached from exercising his
duties, the President shall appoint his successor. The latter shall be appointed up to the end term of
the resigning or impeached Vice-President.
This point of the statutes isn't very clear about what happens if the president resigns or is impeached from exercicing his duties...

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  zinga on Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:48 pm

Admin wrote:
maxischn wrote:12-8 Should one of the Vice-Presidents or the General Secretary resign or be impeached from exercising his
duties, the President shall appoint his successor. The latter shall be appointed up to the end term of
the resigning or impeached Vice-President.
This point of the statutes isn't very clear about what happens if the president resigns or is impeached from exercicing his duties...
12-7 Should the President resign or be impeached from exercising his duties, the Vice-President who has
been a member of the Board of Directors for the longest period shall take over his duties up to the
next Congress. The next Congress shall elect a new President.

Cool
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:53 pm

zinga wrote:12-7 Should the President resign or be impeached from exercising his duties, the Vice-President who has been a member of the Board of Directors for the longest period shall take over his duties up to the next Congress. The next Congress shall elect a new President.

.... just to clarify that a president ad interim stays until the next congress in 2015! If Laurent can be president has to be clarified (is he member of the board for the longest period ?)
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Admin on Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:34 pm

That's what I meant...

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  maxischn on Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:35 pm

vincent the part heinz and me referred to was pointed at kostas remark that luis horta has to be elected and has no right to vote, which is clearly wrong according to the passage i quoted

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  kechris on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:49 pm

Μarcus
i read 12.8 but i am not sure for two points
a) i think that the statutes mean that the succesor is a person from the other 4 vice presidents.
b) the vote is not a part of duties of succesor.

finally i think that is unfair a succesor who selected by president to continue in BoD when the president who selected him as succesor, resigned.
Luis is a real subbuteo lover and a person who works and if you see my posts before Rain and Madrid i proposed Luis for BoD. But i insist that he cann't vote and he cann't continue as BoD member after Capponi's resign.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  von K. on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:17 am

It's quite easy. Just collect enough members and call for elections in an EGM. Then this discussion can end.

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Thossa on Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:38 am

von K. wrote:It's quite easy. Just collect enough members and call for elections in an EGM. Then this discussion can end.

Exactly.

Only new elections can refresh the air. Every current BoD should prove the situation

- about nine month after the dubious last EGM in Madrid the elected team is knocked down
- the President resigned
- the Sports Director resigned
- 2 communication directors resigned, now No. 3, L. Horta is ad interim
- the Marketing Manager incompetant as BoD and outcasted by the rest of the BoD
- the general Secreatry did nothing in the past and is now in personal union President ad interim

STOP THIS MESS AROUND

For the moment we have only Mr. Horta (Communication) & Mr. Vulpes (Finances) as trustable people in FISTF BoD. They deserve to get elected - not ad interim selected - people with the full support beside them.

FiSTF lost 500 € last weekend because of cancelling the FISTF Meeting in Athens. In December a new meeting is planed and I fear, this is again a wasting of FISTF-money for nothing par excellent.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  von K. on Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:15 pm

I agree with Thossa.

Thossa wrote:
FiSTF lost 500 € last weekend because of cancelling the FISTF Meeting in Athens. In December a new meeting is planed and I fear, this is again a wasting of FISTF-money for nothing par excellent.

Members should put a stop to this. And also members should ask for compensation to FISTF from the people who wasted that money and then cancelled the meeting. At least in principle there should be open questioning about this from many members together.

Members could also ask for EGM now, and then cancel the next money wasting meeting, because the BoD would only have 3 months or so, and it wouldn't need any meetings.

The money wasting is even bigger problem, because of the higher fees FISTF now wants from organisers etc.

It's a disgrace and totally unacceptable and irresponsible behaviour to waste organisers' and members' money for cancelled and unnecessary meetings.

Would Germany be able to send a letter to members calling them to ask for EGM and maybe also question this waste of money? You have the credibility to take this step (a lot of others, too, but you are most aware of the financial waste).

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Norbert on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:34 pm

Hi,

Do you know why the meeting in Athens was cancelled?

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Thossa on Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:44 pm

Norbert wrote:Hi,

Do you know why the meeting in Athens was cancelled?

Some BoD-members defently cry off and because of the political situation, too Cool
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:12 pm

von K. wrote:I agree with Thossa.

Thossa wrote:
FiSTF lost 500 € last weekend because of cancelling the FISTF Meeting in Athens. In December a new meeting is planed and I fear, this is again a wasting of FISTF-money for nothing par excellent.

Members should put a stop to this. And also members should ask for compensation to FISTF from the people who wasted that money and then cancelled the meeting. At least in principle there should be open questioning about this from many members together.

Members could also ask for EGM now, and then cancel the next money wasting meeting, because the BoD would only have 3 months or so, and it wouldn't need any meetings.

The money wasting is even bigger problem, because of the higher fees FISTF now wants from organisers etc.

It's a disgrace and totally unacceptable and irresponsible behaviour to waste organisers' and members' money for cancelled and unnecessary meetings.

Would Germany be able to send a letter to members calling them to ask for EGM and maybe also question this waste of money? You have the credibility to take this step (a lot of others, too, but you are most aware of the financial waste).

Thossa and vonK, we shouldn't discuss right now if money was useful spent or not. If these 500 € would help to get rid of one certain BoD member from a poor european country it would be worth it !

So please just stop this discussion because it could also damage Fred and Luis who are still doing a tremendous job in FISTF.
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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  drastis on Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:09 am

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Thossa and vonK, we shouldn't discuss right now if money was useful spent or not. If these 500 € would help to get rid of one certain BoD member from a poor european country it would be worth it !

Janus, could you please explain what is the meaning of your words?

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Re: People for a positive FISTF future

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:42 am

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Thossa and vonK, we shouldn't discuss right now if money was useful spent or not. If these 500 € would help to get rid of one certain BoD member from a poor european country it would be worth it !

So please just stop this discussion because it could also damage Fred and Luis who are still doing a tremendous job in FISTF.

Janus, as you know, I don't play political games. I like transparency in every issue, with everyone. I think it's not a problem for anyone, who has not done anything. More damage is done to fair people who are connected, when there is lack of transparency.

Whether it was useful or not, because of some reason 8other than what it was spent for), is irrelevant. The issue is that the BoD has decided to increase the taxes and fees, and at the same time a lot of money (in FISTF standards) is blown away in thin air, because of a cancelled meeting (for what reason cancelled, and why there was a meeting in the first place in Athens?).

If there is nothing to know or discuss about a matter like this, then I see absolutely no reason in investing anything (money, energy, time or thoughts) in FISTF anymore.

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