Amateur vs. Professional

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Thossa on Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:41 am

In my opinion it is not a very good solution to give subbuteonewsforum the status as offical FISTF forum.

I hope Luís Horta change this situation after his offical confirmation as FISTF Communication Director very quick. A forum is simply part of the communication department - no discusion about that fact.

Would be correct, if an admin of FISTF forum has the same status like FISTF DC. Maybe it would be better, if one of the DC-members do the job as admin or somebody else independant from FISTF BoD.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  maxischn on Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:31 am

Lorenzo wrote:First, let me say that freedom of opinion has little to do with the bans issued during the SN forum’s early period of activity. The discontented started pestering every folder with provocations, cross talk and innuendo. Every discussion was immediately twisted into an excuse to rekindle the barney over the elections. The bans issued by the admins – however rushed in a few cases – were generally legitimate.

That's true but if there had been some answers, the provocations would have stopped Smile (or reduced at least) - but it's sad if you are banned just because you raise critical questions (and there were no insults at all), and please show me which ban was legitimate and why (it's probably impossible because everything is deleted or censored within minutes).

On the other hand, I agree with Janus that the administrators’ consistent refusal to outline the forum’s rules in a definite form is unacceptable and that by this odd behaviour, the admins are needlessly putting themselves in the wrong. Besides, Janus behaved properly at all times and I would certainly contact him before or after he quit.

I guess they are happy that one of those who raise questions is gone ....

We might ask ourselves if such a demeanour is due to authoritarianism, disorganization, poor command of English, or even exasperation in front of the verbal abuse the admins had formerly received. Perhaps a mix of them all?

well seeing the way they have conquered to their directors seat, i'd say it's nothing of this Wink

As far as the administrators’ identities are concerned, I don’t know all of them, but they are not difficult to guess. I was originally designated as SN admin myself, in tandem with another person who was mentioned on the Italian forum. After that I was no longer contacted for the job, and for this reason I have had no part in the forum management.

even more it's sad that they still hide behind ther anonymous "Admin" Login and want others to believe they don't have anything to do with their (personal intended) bans
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:55 pm

maxischn wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:On the other hand, I agree with Janus that the administrators’ consistent refusal to outline the forum’s rules in a definite form is unacceptable and that by this odd behaviour, the admins are needlessly putting themselves in the wrong. Besides, Janus behaved properly at all times and I would certainly contact him before or after he quit.

I guess they are happy that one of those who raise questions is gone ....

Well, I don't guess "they are happy". I believe they didn't think at all ... as long as some people only think in boxes like "Good" or "Bad" they will automatically put me in the box of "Bad". Giving those people support means "casting pearls before swine". I am totally disappointed.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:40 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:Well, I don't guess "they are happy". I believe they didn't think at all ... as long as some people only think in boxes like "Good" or "Bad" they will automatically put me in the box of "Bad". Giving those people support means "casting pearls before swine". I am totally disappointed.

Alas, Janus, each step forward is soon followed by another backwards No

The wretched behaviour of the protesters over the SN forum certainly didn’t earn them any pearl. And frankly, Vincent does not seem to be any less prone than Piero or Stefano at issuing labels of good and evil.

The ongoing war of the buttons between factions uncritically harassing everything undertaken by their opponents won’t be certainly mended with sentences like yours.



“Man being a killer monkey, it is only natural that all sense of objectivity and fairness be obliterated as soon as his herd instincts are aroused”
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:42 pm

Lorenzo wrote:Alas, Janus, each step forward is soon followed by another backwards No

The wretched behaviour of the protesters over the SN forum certainly didn’t earn them any pearl. And frankly, Vincent does not seem to be any less prone than Piero or Stefano at issuing labels of good and evil.

The ongoing war of the buttons between factions uncritically harassing everything undertaken by their opponents won’t be certainly mended with sentences like yours.

Forward or backward, I don't think in those categories. And I am no protestor aginst the SN forum. And I don't think in the category if Vincent is better or worse than Piero/Stefano. And I don't see "a war of buttons". For me it is complete nonsense to speak of a conflict between "North" and "South". I don't see a boycott of some countries for the upcoming WC. I don't categorise in "Good" or "Bad". I don't take part in small minded discussions.

It is all about misunderstandings and "we-don't-know-each-other". And it is about some people not acting and behaving with the necessary respect. And it is about some people having a hidden agenda.

It is all about acting as objectively as possisble for the good of our hobby. We need a common agreement where we want to go and what we want to achieve in an agreed timeline. Each and everybody can count on me and my support on these fundamental matters.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:16 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:It is all about misunderstandings and "we-don't-know-each-other" [...] And it is about some people having a hidden agenda.

I think the hostility between Piero and Stefano on one side and Vincent on the other goes beyond a matter of misunderstandings.

But what do you exactly mean by talking of a hidden agenda? What would it consist in?
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:33 pm

It's all about "Vincent, you suck as president and all your decisions suck. We are very big professionals and we know how to do things perfectly. We want to get rid of you. By the way, we just want you to be part of the team to do the dirty work"... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  von K. on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:39 pm

I like what you wrote, Janus.

Lorenzo wrote:
Janus_Gersie wrote:It is all about misunderstandings and "we-don't-know-each-other" [...] And it is about some people having a hidden agenda.

I think the hostility between Piero and Stefano on one side and Vincent on the other goes beyond a matter of misunderstandings.

Regarding a couple of people this is true, and Janus is not right. Generally he is, and the groups are just in the minds of some people who are not used to critical conversation.

But who says FISTF is Stefano and Vincent? For most people it is clear that the problems lie in the relations of a few individuals. If the countries then can't understand that, and for example Italy and Belgium can't have a more neutral (internationally) person as a candidate, then it is going to continue. (And by another person I don't mean a puppet, like Stefano understood it - and I quote: "I'll anyway tell him what to do" - when I talked on hte phone about him giving up his candidacy, and just working for the good of the game without the chair).

I repeat that many people would have gladly seen both of them and a few others out of the BoD. Although their work and experience would have been useful for the good of the game (if they really love it, they do it without a commanding position). And at the same time there were people who understood that if elected their personal preferences and their own country would be put aside and they would work for the unity and the whole game.

So, I'm surprised that some people still think in the inevitability of some groups, which only consist of a few people (and their brainwashing and misinformation, like sadly seen for example in italian forum) (I don't know about the belgian forum, I don't read french).

Lorenzo wrote:The wretched behaviour of the protesters over the SN forum certainly didn’t earn them any pearl. And frankly, Vincent does not seem to be any less prone than Piero or Stefano at issuing labels of good and evil.

You seem to have a clear opinion on what I wrote that was worse than others (for example Stefano and Piero) to get me a ban. Could you enlighten me?

And could you also tell the names of the people with admin rights in SN, so we could get over that, and see that it was nothing personal...

And can you also tell me in what way did I betray (or what was the word) the trust of the SN people? You implied I did. But I only went along the same lines I always did. I was critical and asked questions. I want to remind you that this was not a problem before Madrid, when I was asked by Stefano to be the GS for the "fixed" BoD (I declined as I believed it was not correct to change candidacy from open to "fixed" and changing position only 2 days before the elections). So what did I do to betray or let down anyone?

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:29 pm

Admin wrote:It's all about "Vincent, you suck as president and all your decisions suck. We are very big professionals and we know how to do things perfectly. We want to get rid of you. By the way, we just want you to be part of the team to do the dirty work"... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I was not there, yet I have been told that you underwent some rudeness and much ingratitude during your last year as chairman. On the other side, a few months ago you were offered the post of chairman in the actual Board in an effort to mend old wounds, and you declined. Looks like a mixed bag to me…

von K. wrote:But who says FISTF is Stefano and Vincent? For most people it is clear that the problems lie in the relations of a few individuals. If the countries then can't understand that, and for example Italy and Belgium can't have a more neutral (internationally) person as a candidate, then it is going to continue.

I would basically agree to your view, except that any organized group is ruled by elites, and it’s their beliefs, resolves as well as the myths they engender that mold the group. That is why personal conflicts are important. I am well aware that most players worldwide just want to play and put arguments behind them, yet they shall follow their perceived leaders in most circumstances.

The herd instinct is what holds any community together.

von K. wrote:You seem to have a clear opinion on what I wrote that was worse than others (for example Stefano and Piero) to get me a ban. Could you enlighten me?

Enlightening another human being is a long and demanding task, my friend... Wink

von K. wrote:And could you also tell the names of the people with admin rights in SN, so we could get over that, and see that it was nothing personal...

Since Janus claims to know them by the rote, you may ask him and spare me much embarrassment Smile

Besides, in your last post you alleged to be uninterested in that kind of info, so I’ll just hold you to your own word Cool
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:02 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
Admin wrote:It's all about "Vincent, you suck as president and all your decisions suck. We are very big professionals and we know how to do things perfectly. We want to get rid of you. By the way, we just want you to be part of the team to do the dirty work"... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I was not there, yet I have been told that you underwent some rudeness and much ingratitude during your last year as chairman. On the other side, a few months ago you were offered the post of chairman in the actual Board in an effort to mend old wounds, and you declined. Looks like a mixed bag to me…
That's not exactly what happened...

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  von K. on Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:14 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:But who says FISTF is Stefano and Vincent? For most people it is clear that the problems lie in the relations of a few individuals. If the countries then can't understand that, and for example Italy and Belgium can't have a more neutral (internationally) person as a candidate, then it is going to continue.

I would basically agree to your view, except that any organized group is ruled by elites, and it’s their beliefs, resolves as well as the myths they engender that mold the group. That is why personal conflicts are important. I am well aware that most players worldwide just want to play and put arguments behind them, yet they shall follow their perceived leaders in most circumstances.

The herd instinct is what holds any community together.

Been reading sociology, I see. In a way you are right, but in a small game like this, I would consider all the players and enthusiasts as the herd. And it should be kept together to prevent the game from disappearing and losing completely to videogames etc.

Herd instinct may well keep a community together, but no community survives with poor leaders. And most communities (in democracies) have options to choose from. The thing that amazes me is that 1 person rules over everyone in the biggest TF country regarding FISTF matters.

Sometimes FISTF looks like FIFA in a small scale. But the ridiculous thing is that while in FIFA it's because of money, in FISTF there is only the reason of personal power (what amazing power, indeed!).

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:You seem to have a clear opinion on what I wrote that was worse than others (for example Stefano and Piero) to get me a ban. Could you enlighten me?

Enlightening another human being is a long and demanding task, my friend... Wink

It takes an eternity with answers like this, that are merely cheap diversions instead of real answers.

Really, I'm interested in what I wrote that was worth such hard criticism as yours in this thread, and also the ban. Remembering at the same time what Piero and Stefano (among others) wrote in those first days.

I can also tell you that I was banned with a note "using double nicks". And at the same time a finnish guy (not my second personality, but a real person) with the nick "Emil Thetre" got banned. Do you see why I'm interested in knowing your reasons for this criticism of my writing, and acceptance of my ban?

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:And could you also tell the names of the people with admin rights in SN, so we could get over that, and see that it was nothing personal...

Since Janus claims to know them by the rote, you may ask him and spare me much embarrassment Smile

I don't know what there is to be embarrassed about. I'd be more embarrassed to hold that sort of information back, if I was presenting myself as sort of neutral person.

You also seem to have genuine information, while Janus only has his educated guess and rumours. I prefer facts.

Lorenzo wrote:Besides, in your last post you alleged to be uninterested in that kind of info, so I’ll just hold you to your own word Cool

I'm not sure where I have written that I don't consider it important to know who ban people in a global federations discussion board without clear reasons and unequally. If I have, I must have been delirious.

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:And after seeing the complete disregard towards many people (like Janus), countries and discussion, I think it's normal many people are feeling betrayed

My dearest Vesa, I can tell you by fresh experience that the SN forum administrators feel as betrayed by you and Janus, as you and Janus do feel betrayed by them.

You forgot to answer this. I'm really curious about this. I wrote less than 20 posts to the SN forum, and some of them got erased. At the same time Stefano attacked my person in a post that he or the admins erased along with my answer to that. So, please, tell me what betrayal did I do, and according to whom?

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:00 am

von K. wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:You seem to have a clear opinion on what I wrote that was worse than others (for example Stefano and Piero) to get me a ban. Could you enlighten me?

Enlightening another human being is a long and demanding task, my friend... Wink

It takes an eternity with answers like this, that are merely cheap diversions instead of real answers.

Vesa, my remark might be more than a cheap diversion.

As to your question, I am far from remembering the details, and I already explained what I think of your collective behaviour. Stefano and Piero may have made a few outbursts, but that’s something different from pestering each and every attempt at discussion with provocations and cheap sarcasm.

In concern to your personal position, while I am not informed about the grounds underlying individual bans, I can say that I was impressed by the abruptness of your conversion from Vesa the Rational Thinker, the cool head, the born mediator, into Vesa the keyboard dissenter, slinging barbed remarks at his newly-discerned foes all over the SN forum.

von K. wrote:the herd. And it should be kept together to prevent the game from disappearing and losing completely to videogames etc.

That's why I would stop this absurd war of the buttons Rolling Eyes
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:05 am

Lorenzo wrote:
... and I already explained what I think of your collective behaviour. Stefano and Piero may have made a few outbursts, but that’s something different from pestering each and every attempt at discussion with provocations and cheap sarcasm.

Lorenzo, just to give you two current examples od "outbursts" (= non professional behaviour):
1. No official invitation to the Congress, just a message in the SN forum
2. Minutes of the meeting with producers: no common agreement of the table football community.

No respect regarding the member associations. Though I agree on neccessary changes regarding the material I am completely against "one way policies".
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:10 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:Lorenzo, just to give you two current examples od "outbursts" (= non professional behaviour):
1. No official invitation to the Congress, just a message in the SN forum
2. Minutes of the meeting with producers: no common agreement of the table football community.

Ehm... I was addressing past issues about the SN forum.

You are talking about the latest decisions concerning materials, right? Whether you are right or not, it seems a different subject to me.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:18 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
Janus_Gersie wrote:Lorenzo, just to give you two current examples od "outbursts" (= non professional behaviour):
1. No official invitation to the Congress, just a message in the SN forum
2. Minutes of the meeting with producers: no common agreement of the table football community.

Ehm... I was addressing past issues about the SN forum.

You are talking about the latest decisions concerning materials, right? Whether you are right or not, it seems a different subject to me.

For me not as I refer to the topic of this thread called "amateur vs. professional". I interpreted your message in this way. May be I was wrong ....
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