Amateur vs. Professional

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Amateur vs. Professional

Post  hönkki on Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:50 pm

I think many of the problems in TF-world arise from the amateur vs. professional -combination and from the fact that those two groups should be treated differently, but they are not.

The amateurs have their own demands for the TF and so do the professionals. I think it makes sense to separate those two groups. The rules of the TF itself should be almost the same for both groups (like in football FC Barcelona use almost the same rules as a team in Finland's 7th division), but everything else could be different, for instance statuses, marketing etc. FISTF BoD wants professionalism. OK, maybe there is a point to TRY professionalism with the very best players. So let them try. In the same time amateurs should have the right to organize their tournaments and other actions in their own way.
Result => no fights between those two groups.

WASPA is a good project, because of it's amateur-based thinking. I just think there should be something that connect WASPA to FISTF, maybe then some roof-organization above them both, I don't know. Anyway, WASPA for amateurs and FISTF for professionals and if someone wants to play in both, then it is ok, at least if the player is good enough to be a professional.

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:06 pm

I agree :-)

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  zinga on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:49 pm

The problem with FISTF and WASPA from the our (Finnish) association's point of view is that we do not fit to either. We are not professional players and at least the current aim of FISTF is to force all associations out of FISTF that do not have professional players. We are amateurs who want to have well organised competitions and handle our association professional way, which by the way FISTF itself is not doing currently. WASPA on the other hand does not accept national associations as a member thus leaving its actions to individual members. Thus, for us it is balancing in between.

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:02 pm

zinga wrote:WASPA on the other hand does not accept national associations as a member thus leaving its actions to individual members. Thus, for us it is balancing in between.
This is part of the things to be discussed in the future... Right now people are happy to have one more option to play but not many people are willing to work on boring things such as statutes and rules.

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  hönkki on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:24 am

The problem with FISTF and WASPA from the our (Finnish) association's point of view is that we do not fit to either.

I think it is just fine right now. As a country we are part of FISTF and as individuals we are part of WASPA. I don't think it would balance more the current situation, if we were part of WASPA as a country.

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:52 pm

hönkki wrote:I think many of the problems in TF-world arise from the amateur vs. professional -combination and from the fact that those two groups should be treated differently, but they are not.

The amateurs have their own demands for the TF and so do the professionals. I think it makes sense to separate those two groups. The rules of the TF itself should be almost the same for both groups (like in football FC Barcelona use almost the same rules as a team in Finland's 7th division), but everything else could be different, for instance statuses, marketing etc. FISTF BoD wants professionalism. OK, maybe there is a point to TRY professionalism with the very best players. So let them try. In the same time amateurs should have the right to organize their tournaments and other actions in their own way.
Result => no fights between those two groups.

WASPA is a good project, because of it's amateur-based thinking. I just think there should be something that connect WASPA to FISTF, maybe then some roof-organization above them both, I don't know. Anyway, WASPA for amateurs and FISTF for professionals and if someone wants to play in both, then it is ok, at least if the player is good enough to be a professional.

I think it is meaningless to talk about ‘professionals’, since at present there is none in the ts world.
Subbuteo is a big step away from being a second job even for the best-paid competitors. I would rather distinguish between sport-minded and fun-oriented players.

Your idea of splitting ts in two separate organizations is impractical. We do not have a small élite of five-stars champs interested in professionalism as opposed to a mass of amateur players, but rather a wide spectrum of expectations ranging from the very sport-minded to the purely fun-oriented. There is no firm line of distinction between the two categories. And we are light years away from having enough players to maintain two separate circuits.

Also, the idea that FISTF and WASPA can live peacefully together is utopistic: if WASPA were to gain a real foothold, in many countries people disputing with the local management would abandon FISTF and join WASPA in revenge. Given the level of immaturity and pettiness prevailing in the ts world, most national communities would soon split in organizations hostile to each other.

Truth is, the controversy professionalism versus amateurism has been nurturing itself to the point that many people no longer discern reality from imagination. There is no major element of contention between sport-minded and fun-oriented players. We can easily go along together. Stefano’s and Piero’s ideas about media support and marketing endeavor can be smoothly reconciled with Vincent’s insistence about socializing and fair play.

I regard the whole bunch of blames and allegations grown like mushrooms in our community during the last few years (on all sides of the pond) as bogus talk grounded in personal antipathies and petty antagonisms. We are a niche hobby struggling for a chance to survive, and we end up having an impaired Board after another, because the people loving this game and striving to work on its behalf are intent on treading on each other’s corns. What a misery.

It may be that such a petty parade epitomizes life as a whole: a poor player

That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing. (Macbeth, V, 5)


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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:15 pm

Considering a large number of players think it is unacceptable to support a Board where people like Capponi, De Francesco and Koutromanos think they are kings are can do whatever they want, even if it's only in their own interests, is it better to see all the frustrated players disappear forever? WASPA is just an option and everybody is free to join or not... Just like everybody is free to play Old Subbuteo tournaments...

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  zinga on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:41 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
I think it is meaningless to talk about ‘professionals’, since at present there is none in the ts world.
Subbuteo is a big step away from being a second job even for the best-paid competitors. I would rather distinguish between sport-minded and fun-oriented players.
Agreed.

Lorenzo wrote:We do not have a small élite of five-stars champs interested in professionalism as opposed to a mass of amateur players, but rather a wide spectrum of expectations ranging from the very sport-minded to the purely fun-oriented. There is no firm line of distinction between the two categories. And we are light years away from having enough players to maintain two separate circuits.
But we have a BoD which is not interesting having as large TF community as possible. The BoD is only interested to retain its powers with the cost of dividing the community and promoting WASPA.

Lorenzo wrote:I regard the whole bunch of blames and allegations grown like mushrooms in our community during the last few years (on all sides of the pond) as bogus talk grounded in personal antipathies and petty antagonisms. We are a niche hobby struggling for a chance to survive, and we end up having an impaired Board after another, because the people loving this game and striving to work on its behalf are intent on treading on each other’s corns. What a misery.
Agreed. We should follow those who say: "I really do not want to be in the BoD but I am willing to sacrifice myself for the work and for the game". I said it openly before the last elections that we could find the unity if we had BoD withour Vincent and Stefano. Sadly, it seems now that stefano is proving me right. Of course individual power is more important than the TF community unity.

Of course many players are blind to the truth situation as they are living in the shadows of the censorship curtains. They believe everything that is written in the one sided "official" forum where no critizism is allowed. In Western civilization the way of responding critizism is to have dialogues and arguments. On the other hand we have also nations where critizism is responded by prisons and censorship.

It really is no surprise that the WASPA tournament in Sweden is becoming as international as the FISTF World Cup. Of course the blame for this can be laid to WASPA and "Northern nations". Rolling Eyes
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  hönkki on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:08 pm

I think it is meaningless to talk about ‘professionals’, since at present there is none in the ts world.
Subbuteo is a big step away from being a second job even for the best-paid competitors. I would rather distinguish between sport-minded and fun-oriented players.

The talk about something what would be called "professionalism" was FISTF BoD's idea, not mine.

Your idea of splitting ts in two separate organizations is impractical. We do not have a small élite of five-stars champs interested in professionalism as opposed to a mass of amateur players, but rather a wide spectrum of expectations ranging from the very sport-minded to the purely fun-oriented. There is no firm line of distinction between the two categories. And we are light years away from having enough players to maintain two separate circuits.

Also, the idea that FISTF and WASPA can live peacefully together is utopistic: if WASPA were to gain a real foothold, in many countries people disputing with the local management would abandon FISTF and join WASPA in revenge. Given the level of immaturity and pettiness prevailing in the ts world, most national communities would soon split in organizations hostile to each other.

Truth is, the controversy professionalism versus amateurism has been nurturing itself to the point that many people no longer discern reality from imagination. There is no major element of contention between sport-minded and fun-oriented players. We can easily go along together. Stefano’s and Piero’s ideas about media support and marketing endeavor can be smoothly reconciled with Vincent’s insistence about socializing and fair play.

I can play easily both FISTF and WASPA tournaments, if it is just allowed by FISTF. If it is not allowed, then it will be a very difficult choice. Vincent had the right to create WASPA after being treated badly.

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:55 am

To be honest I hate this discussion. There should be no "amateur vs professional" in our sport/hobby. Where does the discussion come from ? The first time I remember it was when Silvio Catania came up with his wish to make everything more professional. An endless discussion started .... before that we only had players, some more ambitious, others not. We already had players (since years) being paid for playing in a certain club. The first semi-professionals I can remember were Gil Delogne, Vasco Guimaraes and Massimo Bolognino. They got paid ... but who really cared about it ??? It was a normal development.
We all had the same tournaments. The only exceptions was they won the events ....

In these days we have to face with a deep cut into two or more blocks. I don't want to comment more deeply but the only chance we have is to re-unify the cut in our minds. If it is with FISTF: fine. If it is without FISTF: also fine.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  hönkki on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:32 am

I would rather distinguish between sport-minded and fun-oriented players.

You are right. That would be a better way to divide. But then, wouldn't it be good if there were FISTF-tournaments for sport-minded and FISTF-tournaments for fun-oriented ? Or own category for fun-oriented in big FISTF-tournaments ? WASPA could be part of this fun-oriented activity. I think it would be not bad if there were a connection between WASPA and FISTF.

I would also re-arrange the categories like this:

- fun
- U18
- open
- vets
- female

Fun-category would be a good place for kids and beginners and others who are not so serious about their playing.

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:55 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:To be honest I hate this discussion. There should be no "amateur vs professional" in our sport/hobby [...] the only chance we have is to re-unify the cut in our mind

Well said, Janus. You sketched in a few words what I addressed in my verbose fashion.

And you are right: the problem lies in the people’s minds, not in their actions. Whoever enters the Board, whatever he does, he is going to be contested furiously by the opposite faction. If Vincent had won the elections, we would be experiencing this same situation and the same accusations on reverse.

We just need to grow up. But then, we would probably lose interest in tablesoccer Rolling Eyes

zinga wrote:
Of course many players are blind to the truth situation as they are living in the shadows of the censorship curtains. They believe everything that is written in the one sided "official" forum where no critizism is allowed. In Western civilization the way of responding critizism is to have dialogues and arguments. On the other hand we have also nations where critizism is responded by prisons and censorship.

My dear Zinga, people are interested in living, not in seeking truth, and frankly you don’t emerge as an exception.

The SN forum is a perfect example of Janus’ argument: from the first day, the discontented started stirring trouble and twisting every discussion into a provocation. The administration responded by its questionable, almost weird policy of arbitrary exclusion. I see no blame and no praise in all this, much less a matter of free discussion versus censorship: just a war of the buttons between bunches of overgrown children.

http://www.amazon.com/War-Buttons-VHS-Gregg-Fitzgerald/dp/6303954294/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1309953058&sr=8-2
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:03 pm

If Vincent had won the elections, we would be experiencing this same situation and the same accusations on reverse.
The result of the elections in Frankfurt were not the first thing. The fact that some "very fantastic & perfect & professional & sport oriented & intelligent & able to take the perfect decision" wanted elections before the former Board went to the end of its term was not just only a total lack of respect and education but also the proof the unity of this community was cominf to an end. In fact, at the world cup in Rotterdam, I already understood the unity was dead...

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  zinga on Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:20 pm

Lorenzo wrote:And you are right: the problem lies in the people’s minds, not in their actions. Whoever enters the Board, whatever he does, he is going to be contested furiously by the opposite faction. If Vincent had won the elections, we would be experiencing this same situation and the same accusations on reverse.
Well, I don't count myself to any side. As I wrote, I said before the elections that both Vincent and Stefano should step a side for the unity. Currently I am critizising the actions and not minds. For instance, I am sure that Stefano loves the TF and could help the TF community a much if only he understood that he also has limitations (communications, administration skills, politics.)

Lorenzo wrote:We just need to grow up. But then, we would probably lose interest in tablesoccer Rolling Eyes
Well said! Cool

Lorenzo wrote:
zinga wrote:
Of course many players are blind to the truth situation as they are living in the shadows of the censorship curtains. They believe everything that is written in the one sided "official" forum where no critizism is allowed. In Western civilization the way of responding critizism is to have dialogues and arguments. On the other hand we have also nations where critizism is responded by prisons and censorship.

My dear Zinga, people are interested in living, not in seeking truth, and frankly you don’t emerge as an exception.

The SN forum is a perfect example of Janus’ argument: from the first day, the discontented started stirring trouble and twisting every discussion into a provocation. The administration responded by its questionable, almost weird policy of arbitrary exclusion. I see no blame and no praise in all this, much less a matter of free discussion versus censorship: just a war of the buttons between bunches of overgrown children.
I am sure that people in real life in some nations (maybe not proper to mention examples) are just trying to survive (interested in living). However, some other people are willing to risk their lifes for seeking the truth and contesting the tyranny.

At least for me the current situation in FISTF has affected in a manner that I have lost my interest in international TF actions. I am more interested just to spent my time playing the game and letting others to worry about rule breaking, non-promotion, non-communication etc. I can see that our game is dying and I would like to do something to holding up. As you said, maybe I should just be more interested in living.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:20 pm

We all agree that there are more important things in life than a stupid game lol!

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:27 pm

Lorenzo wrote: ...the problem lies in the people’s minds, not in their actions.

... But people are mainly judged by their actions. Actions are the result of habits and believes ....
As an example: SdF is censoring the SN forum (= action). What kind of believes and habits are in his mind ? Answer: little trust, feeling of power, disability to conflict, little willingness to listen, etc.

Lorenzo wrote:Whoever enters the Board, whatever he does, he is going to be contested furiously by the opposite faction.

To be slightly more detailed: this happens as recently as the congress in Rotterdam. Before that congress it was more or less lack of interest from a lot of member nations in discussing issues.
The upcoming discussions the recent board (almost the same persons as in the last board) has to face with can be explained by a nice saying from Goethe: "The spirits I have evoked ..." But how are they reacting? In censorship !



It should have been a warning signal I left the SN forum by deleting the account by myself. Neither SdF nor Piero contacted me. Okay, if they are not interested in a reliable, fair, contesting, capable and life experienced leader they should keep their own believes ... and actions. Consequences may arise ...
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  von K. on Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:18 am

Lorenzo, what you are saying, is that rules and regulations are meaningless, because if someone brakes them, everyone should just "keep on living".

You know very well that in Italy there was an almost historic vote about a month ago. Close history has seen numerous public votes in Italy gather too small percentage to be effective, but this time people searched for the truth and didn't just live. Wasn't it a good thing?

You are confusing me sometimes. You like to quote historic characters, but you don't like people fighting for or demanding free discussion in a distorted world like FISTF. I also see your critical posts here, and not in the Subbuteonews forum. Maybe I just don't understand something. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your posts a lot.

By the way, in recent elections there were, and still are, persons and countries that are not part of any sides. And there were and are people who would work for the FISTF, not for themsleves or their countries. I don't like the kind of generalisations you make in this matter. Like Zinga, others also pleaded for both Vincent and Stefano to step down, because the dualism culminates in them. After what happened regarding Madrid and afterwards, I see many people who would have been impartial, but are now against the current BoD's actions. And after seeing the complete disregard towards many people (like Janus), countries and discussion, I think it's normal many people are feeling betrayed, and that easily becomes a personal feeling (that's living, in fact).

I think it's normal that people who travel for their hobby and spend a lot of time and also money for it, care also about it. I don't think that is childish. Just living, accepting everything, is what children (not even all of them) do, because they usually have no choice. Most quoted historical persons also have fighted for something. If they had just lived, they wouldn't be quoted...

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  zinga on Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:35 pm

Vesa, I would be glad if I ever could write as elegantly as you do. Well said!
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:56 pm

zinga wrote:Vesa, I would be glad if I ever could write as elegantly as you do. Well said!
Totally agreed!

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:32 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:Okay, if they are not interested in a reliable, fair, contesting, capable and life experienced leader they should keep their own believes ... and actions.

Well, at least we know for a fact that you have no cheap opinion of yourself Wink

von K. wrote:Lorenzo, what you are saying, is that rules and regulations are meaningless, because if someone brakes them, everyone should just "keep on living".

I am afraid you misunderstood the implications of my statement Smile

von K. wrote:And after seeing the complete disregard towards many people (like Janus), countries and discussion, I think it's normal many people are feeling betrayed

My dearest Vesa, I can tell you by fresh experience that the SN forum administrators feel as betrayed by you and Janus, as you and Janus do feel betrayed by them.

See, the drive to live inspires people to commit two mistakes: first, to believe that there are rights and wrongs, and secondly, that they are right and other people wrong.

I for my part, in my gullibility, still merely see a war of the buttons Smile


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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Admin on Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:38 pm

There are always different visions of things.

For some people, the extremely poor turnout at the world cup is because of the bad date, the bad location, the expensive travel costs and the very ppor communication from the organizers and FISTF.

For other people, it's because "some countries boycot the world cup" (as read on the italian forum).

Sad Sad Sad

The same differences & visions of things can be seen in many other domains in our community and it's very sad...

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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:26 am

Lorenzo wrote:My dearest Vesa, I can tell you by fresh experience that the SN forum administrators feel as betrayed by you and Janus, as you and Janus do feel betrayed by them.

Which tells us that you do have the almaost exclusive information who these administrators are...

It may be better to keep that secret, because this way I'm free to say that their actions of banning and censoring proved their poor character. Their lack of self-confidence is absolutely remarkable, for me the only explanation why most of the posts with interesting questions or critical content are deleted straight away. Plus it's far easier to erase the critics than finding answers or solutions.

If I had the knowledge who these poor admins are, one could think I only want to criticize these people because of possible personal problems I may have with them.
So I do like the fact that I do not know their names... Cool


And whoever they are, if they feel betrayed by Janus and / or Vesa and / or others, it just gives another example of their view of basic rules of communication / democracy / respect / freedom of speech etc. which oviously needs some improvement.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:41 am

hönkki wrote:Fun-category would be a good place for kids and beginners and others who are not so serious about their playing.

In general I would agree with you. But knowing the people from the circuit I would bet that there are some players around who would just enter the fun-category because they desperately want to win it and so the whole good idea is contradicted...

When I read a different post somewhere I got the idea of splitting the open category in larger tournaments ( >32) in this way:
the top ranked 16 players play in the Open A (4 groups of 4), all the others in Open B, both with full ranking points awarded.
This would mean the weaker players won't face the real big players, so the potential difference in the players' strength is not as big as it is now.
Giving both categories full ranking points may sound a bit confusing in first place, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. One problem may be that bigger tournaments receive twice as much points as smaller ones then, but this may be adjusted by fixing the percentages for the amount of particiants...
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:46 pm

Lorenzo wrote:... I can tell you by fresh experience that the SN forum administrators feel as betrayed by you and Janus, as you and Janus do feel betrayed by them...

I don't feel betrayed by the SN administrators. But I have never seen someone before (even not in real business life) destroying - without any meaningful reason - confidence in such a short term (since the inauguration of SN forum and deleting my account by myself).

And if somebody feels betrayed by me: be man enough - stand up - and talk to me. Regarding personal issues I was convinced (after Frankfurt, Rain and Madrid) we could put them back for objective discussions and arguments about our hobby. We don't have to love each other as long as we discuss open-minded and objectively.

But when people are hiding themselves because they are not man enough to confrontate/communicate then I clearly stop communicating. Respect was shown towards me in Frankfurt and in Madrid. But almost as of the next day it was gone. I don't feel well respected
- when reading the minutes of Madrid (and the way my complaints were handled)
- when looking at the process of appointing the new DC
- when looking on how the SN forum is managed

I am gutted about the SN administrators not being man enough to show their identity (especially because I know who they are).

I don't like hidden agendas. This is my main allegation against some people in the current board. But I still support the idea of FISTF.
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Re: Amateur vs. Professional

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:16 am

Janus_Gersie wrote:I don't feel betrayed by the SN administrators. But I have never seen someone before (even not in real business life) destroying - without any meaningful reason - confidence in such a short term (since the inauguration of SN forum and deleting my account by myself).

And if somebody feels betrayed by me: be man enough - stand up - and talk to me. Regarding personal issues I was convinced (after Frankfurt, Rain and Madrid) we could put them back for objective discussions and arguments about our hobby. We don't have to love each other as long as we discuss open-minded and objectively.

But when people are hiding themselves because they are not man enough to confrontate/communicate then I clearly stop communicating. Respect was shown towards me in Frankfurt and in Madrid. But almost as of the next day it was gone. I don't feel well respected
- when reading the minutes of Madrid (and the way my complaints were handled)
- when looking at the process of appointing the new DC
- when looking on how the SN forum is managed

I am gutted about the SN administrators not being man enough to show their identity (especially because I know who they are).

I don't like hidden agendas. This is my main allegation against some people in the current board. But I still support the idea of FISTF.

Nice to hear some sense being spoken on this forum.

First, let me say that freedom of opinion has little to do with the bans issued during the SN forum’s early period of activity. The discontented started pestering every folder with provocations, cross talk and innuendo. Every discussion was immediately twisted into an excuse to rekindle the barney over the elections. The bans issued by the admins – however rushed in a few cases – were generally legitimate.

On the other hand, I agree with Janus that the administrators’ consistent refusal to outline the forum’s rules in a definite form is unacceptable and that by this odd behaviour, the admins are needlessly putting themselves in the wrong. Besides, Janus behaved properly at all times and I would certainly contact him before or after he quit.

We might ask ourselves if such a demeanour is due to authoritarianism, disorganization, poor command of English, or even exasperation in front of the verbal abuse the admins had formerly received. Perhaps a mix of them all?

As far as the administrators’ identities are concerned, I don’t know all of them, but they are not difficult to guess. I was originally designated as SN admin myself, in tandem with another person who was mentioned on the Italian forum. After that I was no longer contacted for the job, and for this reason I have had no part in the forum management.

Finally, I also support the idea of FISTF. It is our only hope to ensure the game's survival.
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