Major 2011-2012 a proposal

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:15 pm

Please Heinz read again and more carefully my proposal.
I wrote every month 2 tournaments. No 5 tournaments in May and no tournaments in September, October.
I wrote for fixed number of participations. For every table can accepted 1 team, 4 open, 2 veterans, 1 u19, 1u15, 1u12, 1 lady.
I spent many time for thinking my proposal. I prefer to think before propose because i want to have answers for every question and occasion.
And i wrote only for 1 tournament per country except very big countries with long distances like Germany Italy and probably Spain.
You forgot to write in your calendar 10 international open 10 satellites challengers and futures. Your calendar has 50 tournaments and some weekends has 2 and 3 tournaments. This a TERRIBLE MISTAKE.

P.S.1. your question about satellite in Madrid is wrong. Because my teamates took part in this tournament and i know better than you why they selected to use 4 flights and to spend 2 days in airports. So please be carefull in your conjectural. It is out of logic.
P.S.2. I didn't say for old ideas by ex BoD. I said that you insist in the same ideas -wrong ideas and you continue to insist- and the people have different opinion. Open your mind. WE ARE NOT SATIFIED FOR TABLE SOCCER'S PRESENT and we are looking for changes. And we are upset because new BoD make changes in wrong directions! It is so simple.

OPEN YOUR EARS AND YOUR EYES AND READ THE POSTS OF SIMPLE PLAYERS (for all BoD members,new and ex).
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:22 pm

kechris wrote:You forgot to write in your calendar 10 international open 10 satellites challengers and futures. Your calendar has 50 tournaments and some weekends has 2 and 3 tournaments. This a TERRIBLE MISTAKE.
I don't understand that.

First of all, what is wrong with Satellites, Challengers and Futures? These tournaments are very good for weaker players, don't you think?

About having 2 or 3 tournaments in the same week-end, what is the problem if there are in the same week-end:
- an Open in Scotland
- a Challenger in Greece
- a Satellite in Australia
- a Future in Spain
- a Challenger in the USA

Doy ou really think there is a negative effect for some tournaments because there are other tournaments at the same time?

I agree there can be only one GP per week-end (per continent). but apart from that, I think the circuit is fine like it is now.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:50 pm

Kostas, I read it and I understand it, but maybe you didn't get my point.
Looking on the numbers and names of the players shows that most of the players who take part in Satellites, Challengers and Futures only play those events because they are organized in their country, so to cancel those events won't motivate those players to play tournaments outside their country, that's my point of view. For the big events we nearly have the situation you are talking about except in may, but you can't tell the associations when they have to organize their events, as long as they respect the rules of the calender.
Reading that you want to limit the number of players in tournaments doesn't really convince me to agree on your ideas.
I'm sure you know the reasons why your team mates travel to Madrid, but my question was, if they would choose another tournament to travel, if the Satellites wouldn't take place?
You are talking like having a big majority of the whole community behind you, we are here on a forum with ~50 users now and 200 posts, done by maybe 25 users (i think it was simular in the old forum of FISTF), so I'm open to discuss about your ideas, but my point of view is that you have to modify your ideas that you can convince me for an example, that's all. I'm not against changes, if the situation will become better, but I don't think that your ideas will make things better, it is only a change to have something new, but I'm pretty sure the number of players taking part at tournaments far away from the center of tablesoccer Europe won't become more by realizing your actual version of your ideas.
The only point I particullary agree with you is the number of tournaments, but radically to cancel all International Open, Satellites, Challengers and Futures isn't the right direction I think. I'm not a fan of splitting the events in different categories according the skills of a player (ranking), some players are bad ranked, but their skills are very high, some other players aren't playing well, but they want to play against Verhagen or Flores. The actual system gives them the chance, and the actual system also gives the chance that they don't need to play against them by playing Satellites for an example.
I would prefer it to have a look on the tournament system, instead of the whole system of the calender and types of tournaments, I think there is much more possibility that players could enjoy more playing events.

Heinz

kechris wrote:Please Heinz read again and more carefully my proposal.
I wrote every month 2 tournaments. No 5 tournaments in May and no tournaments in September, October.
I wrote for fixed number of participations. For every table can accepted 1 team, 4 open, 2 veterans, 1 u19, 1u15, 1u12, 1 lady.
I spent many time for thinking my proposal. I prefer to think before propose because i want to have answers for every question and occasion.
And i wrote only for 1 tournament per country except very big countries with long distances like Germany Italy and probably Spain.
You forgot to write in your calendar 10 international open 10 satellites challengers and futures. Your calendar has 50 tournaments and some weekends has 2 and 3 tournaments. This a TERRIBLE MISTAKE.

P.S.1. your question about satellite in Madrid is wrong. Because my teamates took part in this tournament and i know better than you why they selected to use 4 flights and to spend 2 days in airports. So please be carefull in your conjectural. It is out of logic.
P.S.2. I didn't say for old ideas by ex BoD. I said that you insist in the same ideas -wrong ideas and you continue to insist- and the people have different opinion. Open your mind. WE ARE NOT SATIFIED FOR TABLE SOCCER'S PRESENT and we are looking for changes. And we are upset because new BoD make changes in wrong directions! It is so simple.

OPEN YOUR EARS AND YOUR EYES AND READ THE POSTS OF SIMPLE PLAYERS (for all BoD members,new and ex).

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:10 pm

I gave my answers in "quote" with red letters.

Admin wrote:
First of all, what is wrong with Satellites, Challengers and Futures? These tournaments are very good for weaker players, don't you think?

For the weaker players is better the national tournaments. No weak tournaments for weak players. You can create two categories in the SAME tournament (division a, division b) but no two different tournaments.
I can play in Future but i am not weak player. Your system and ladder are weak.


About having 2 or 3 tournaments in the same week-end, what is the problem if there are in the same week-end:
- an Open in Scotland
- a Challenger in Greece
- a Satellite in Australia
- a Future in Spain
- a Challenger in the USA

Do you really think there is a negative effect for some tournaments because there are other tournaments at the same time?

I cann't believe that you cann't understand the reason. I am sure that Spanish and Greek player will not travel to Scotland. They will stay to play in their countries. And a player who can spend money
to travel to another continent ( from or to -america australia or europe) will not select a challenger or satellite for this long trip !!!.


Heinz Eder wrote: For the big events we nearly have the situation you are talking about except in may, but you can't tell the associations when they have to organize their events, as long as they respect the rules of the calender.
OK. So BoD MUST change the rule. Every federation to send as soon as possible the date for its tournament. Every second weekend a tournament. If the date were selected by other fedreation then must find other date. So simple.

Reading that you want to limit the number of players in tournaments doesn't really convince me to agree on your ideas.
I prefer to take part in a tournament with standard number of competitors and standard number of matches. I think everybody want this.

I'm sure you know the reasons why your team mates travel to Madrid, but my question was, if they would choose another tournament to travel, if the Satellites wouldn't take place?
My teamates selected Madrid because they hadn't ever visit Spain. The tournament was double satellite in open and team event. They would play at least 6 matches. If Madrid's tournament didn't took place they will select another tournament.

You are talking like having a big majority of the whole community behind you, we are here on a forum with ~50 users now and 200 posts, done by maybe 25 users (i think it was simular in the old forum of FISTF), so I'm open to discuss about your ideas, but my point of view is that you have to modify your ideas that you can convince me for an example, that's all.
I haven't majority behind me. I am one of the majority who loves table soccer as hobby. I did about 20 trips in abroad for tournaments ( i paid for these) and i discuss (with my bad english) with everyone. I have my eyes OPEN. You wrote before few days that 95% of players want only to play. NO. We are interesting for the future but you look for partners no real table soccer lovers with ideas and experience but for politicals full of complex like my federation president who is subbuteo player the last three years and FISTF BoD member now !!!

P.S. Before three years I took a decision and i create a new club "Olympia" with 7 friends who all of them except Stamokostas are newcomers without palmare. (Patrinos S and D, Kourabas, Padopoulos (george in forum) Seses and Kastellanos. All the other top class greek subbuteo players laughed with my decision. Now Olympia is no 22 in world ranking we have played in final at English I.O and Greek G.P. we have 20 full active members, our hall (125m) with 10 tables, internet, TV, bar etc we organise league with 30 persons (10 by other clubs!!!). We have our blog subbuteo.gr and we have new visitors in our hall every week. I spend a lot of time (every week two afternoons for 6 hours) training my teamates and making teams for ALL. And i am proud because the first 7 teammates now spend their time to training the newcomers. You can ask Janus Gersie. He visited our hall before few months.
Last December our team the same weekend played in two tournaments. One team played in Greece and another to abroad. Before a month we took part in a satellite in Greece with three teams and among 9 teams, our A,B,C finished in the first three positions!!! Who made a bet before three years for this future? None. I know that i have many enemies but i have also more friends. Because i keep my promises.
That i ask for BoD. To help table soccer really. Everything is easy if we want inside of our heart.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Thossa on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:18 pm

You are doing a very good job with ITEC Olympia. No question. Congratulation Exclamation
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:49 pm

To Kechris:
Well, if we must delete the Satellites, Challengers and Futures, tell me why sports like tennis have Satellites, Challengers and Futures for players who are not as good as Roger Federer or Kim Clijsters.

I believe the ATP and WTA are proud to have this kind of tournaments and don't say the weak players should only play at national level.

Just a question...
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:07 pm

Thanks Thossa. We are doing good job.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:15 pm

Vincent you are confused. Tennis is a full professional game with long long history..
We are in the beggining. Federer versus Verhagen?
Do you remember Bjorn Borg McEnroe Navratilova before 20 years? Tennis is a real sport. We are a hobby. WAKE UP.

p.s. I said no weak tournaments for weak players. I said weak category for weak players in top class tournaments. It is better for all.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:21 pm

If you stop the Satellites,C hallengers and Futures, in less than 2 years, the number of players in the Open World Ranking will move from 1390 to 500-600. Is it what you want?

Sorry but this is bullshit!
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:44 pm

I don't believe this.
But if you believe it maybe you know that we are not 1400 real full active players but 500 or 600 hundred.
I prefer to find the truth. But I am sure that will not change the number of 1400 if satellites stop. I believe that the number will be larger if we create and b division for the wake players. This i did when i was sport director in Greece for one year and at the end of the year we have double number participations with new members. Because the newcomer doesn't want to play with a top class player but wants to play in the same hall with top class. It is better for him to win Mons b division than sattelite in Templeuve for example. The first lesson in promotion management.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:56 pm

So what's the point to have 2 Europa Cups then?
The "Europa League" will not be anything more than a "consolation" tournament for weak teams...
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:17 pm

No more comments.
Thanks for the discussion.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:06 am

Kechris this is not a dialogue. You critisize others but when you cannot manage a confrontation you stop the discussion? so, what you are telling us is that the "weak" players should be there (big tournaments) so that they pay the rent of the "strong" ones?
very nice idea indeed.

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Thossa on Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:41 am

I think it is fair by Kostas to tell when he is finish with a discussion Neutral
So far so good
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:28 am

Hi, even if Kostas won't answer anymore, I'm pretty sure he will read the comments.
Kostas, you called me somebody who is looking for partners and is making politic with your beloved hobby. Do you really think I'm somebody like that? If the old board would act that way, do you really think that other people would be in the board now? Maybe you should consider that we maybe have different opinions on some topics?
The difference between the actual system and your proposed system is that players can choose, realizing your system means players can't choose anymore, if they want to play against the best players or not. Maybe we should reduce the events, but for sure we shouldn't cancel them. Another possibility could be to organize a Satellite on the same week-end as a Major, then players can choose 1 type and we would see how many players will choose to play the Satellite, if they also have the chance to play a Major on the same day, I think that would answer the question how attractive it is to split the big tournaments in categories.
There are also some other facts which wouldn't change only because of another calender, I think those things are much more important to solve first.
For an example do you think it is fair to play groups of 2? All tournaments are wrong where groups of 2 were played in the past. New draw would mean new seeding, new number of groups, other games in the barrage and so on. Nobody complains about that, but about the number of tournaments.
Organizers refuse to make a new draw because of time delay, but most of the tournaments are organized on PC, so we can see that PC doesn't mean a full automtical organization of an event. We need guidelines that somebody can decide what event is good and what event is bad. We need a tournament monitoring, those things are needed, but even if you send the appointed head referee all documents you don't get feedback after the tournament, so there is the next point. How do we want to monitore the events? The list of criterias is already existing, because Vincent and me created such a list.
It is not the right way to make it easy and give every country a big event that everybody is happy, we have to find the best events and those events should be special. If there are 2 in the same country it should be ok too, if there are the best organizers they deserve to have 2 of those special events. In my opinion we also shouldn't limit the number of those events, if there are 20 organizers doing such a great job to deserve the title of a Major there should be 20 Majors too, it only tells us that we have a very high standard of organization in our events, which would be very positive. We need more concurrence between the tournaments that the tournaments improve their organization.

Heinz

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  zinga on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:03 pm

Admin wrote:Sorry but the lack of discipline is from everyone.

If the tournaments starts at 9.00 in the schedule, you must announce the first row at 8.50 and start the game at 9.00. If players are not there, either they can start the game a bit later if they start less then 5 minutes late or the absent player must lose his game on forfait.
Sorry to come back to this, but it just came to my mind. It should be a referees guide to give a yellow card to a player who is not ready when the game starts. This would of course require organizers to use clear time and schedule keeping and sufficient information for the players.

After 5 minutes it would be red card as mister admin proposed.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:23 pm

Don't call me Mr admin, call me Vincent. It will be fine Very Happy
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  kechris on Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:45 pm

Admin wrote:So what's the point to have 2 Europa Cups then?
The "Europa League" will not be anything more than a "consolation" tournament for weak teams...

Ι stopped my comments because Vincent cannot (or he does not want) understand the difference between Top class and weak club and players. I will give an example with english teams.
Liverpool Manchester utd are top class clubs.
Tottenham Everton arenot top class clubs but no weak clubs.
Scunthorpe , leyton Orient are weak clubs for European cups.

My proposal was different cup for Mattesburg Perugia Falcons and Murcia and different cup for Olympia Delft Brussels. Do you think that these teams are weak? You gave fool answers because you want to destroy the discussion. I can accept it. I can not accept an answer like "bullshit". This is not a case in dialogue.

Heinz you wrote many words but you did few acts. I cann't do acts because i was not member of BoD. I can only doing critical. You lost your opportunity to change the table soccer "map". You spend many years as sport director. Now you must stop talking about this. You are not now sport director because more federations select another person for your place with elections.
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:20 pm

Kostas, first of all I think I changed enough in sports department in 4 years.
The second thing is that I think the sports department needs to be a kind of process. you can't change things over night. You can be sure that the process I started in 2006 wasn't finished in january 2010, and all the things I'm talking about would have been part of the next 4 years. I know that other people are now taking the decisions and I don't have a problem with that. I'm honest I planned to work another 4 years in FISTF, now situation is different, but it was a great experience to work 4 years, even if it was for free and maybe didn't satisfy you personally.
Am i not allowed to take part in a discussion now, because I was sport director for 4 years and now I'm not anymore? Do you think my ideas and plans for the future are different now than they would be, if I would still be in FISTF Board? Or do you think that I'm automatically wrong because I was in the loosing team of Frankfurt?
If you think like that you have a very short view on things, sorry.

Heinz



kechris wrote:
Admin wrote:So what's the point to have 2 Europa Cups then?
The "Europa League" will not be anything more than a "consolation" tournament for weak teams...

Ι stopped my comments because Vincent cannot (or he does not want) understand the difference between Top class and weak club and players. I will give an example with english teams.
Liverpool Manchester utd are top class clubs.
Tottenham Everton arenot top class clubs but no weak clubs.
Scunthorpe , leyton Orient are weak clubs for European cups.

My proposal was different cup for Mattesburg Perugia Falcons and Murcia and different cup for Olympia Delft Brussels. Do you think that these teams are weak? You gave fool answers because you want to destroy the discussion. I can accept it. I can not accept an answer like "bullshit". This is not a case in dialogue.

Heinz you wrote many words but you did few acts. I cann't do acts because i was not member of BoD. I can only doing critical. You lost your opportunity to change the table soccer "map". You spend many years as sport director. Now you must stop talking about this. You are not now sport director because more federations select another person for your place with elections.

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:10 pm

Hola

think the right way is the best organized event.

This weekend has been played the first tournament in the history of the AFM in Palma de Mallorca.

There were 50 players and 30 family .... in a hotel full board for 30 euros a day.

At the awards ceremony was the mayor, the regional council, etc. ..

AFM has helped the organization to the sport (with Fernando Gomez, Juan Carlos Granados, Luis Lopez and me) .. As the friends of the Eagles have been impressive in all aspects of logistics.

Carlos Flores Spanish forum has defined the "the best tournament of the season."

This is the future of the tournament.

Maybe we should organize some tournament less (I think the satellite, the second-level tournaments are important) but more careful.

The Olympia, who came to Madrid (as Vincent tournament was a disaster but with 100 players in two days more than half foreigners ... with more foreign satellite this year ...) went through the night from Saturday to see the Real Madrid game .... does not happen in all cities ...

Anyway Stefano on the proposal I think is important, rather than a particular city, involving the National Federation in the organization of a major. If Spain were to organize a major option would be Madrid or Barcelona and the Organizing Committee to the AFM would be complete and not a single club. This until now was difficult for the organizers why the Majors are only a moment to raise money.

The same would be for countries like Greece, England or France.

Only with the love, care, care of the details, kindly get to attract and retain new players and new sponsors.

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  von K. on Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:16 am

I think there is good and bad things in both "sides". Nothing is perfect, but nothing is totally bad either.

In the Finnish national cometitions we have had to think about the competitions and ranking system a lot. The problem is that most players live near Helsinki, which is on southern end of the country. But we want to have competitions, for solidarity's sake, in every city where there are players. Otherwise it would only be those who travel to tournaments.

But naturally the tournaments near Helsinki draw more players. And it doesn't matter that when we have tournament in another city, there is no other tournaments. But if there was one at the same time in Helsinki (even a smaller practice tournament), many players would go there.

So I find it hard to believe that people would travel more if there would be less tournaments. Even in our small scale activity it is like that. For example I have a chance to go to the WC through our ranking and would get easier points from smaller tournaments outside Helsinki. But I just don't have the possibility because of personal life, even though I may miss the place in the WC because of that.

Only those with time and money will travel. It doesn't matter where the tournaments are and are they at the same time.

This is my view (I can be wrong) about the motivation and possibilities of the majority of the players. And how else could you explain the relatively small amount of italians in the FISTF ranking?

kechris wrote:You are not now sport director because more federations select another person for your place with elections.

This is not really true. Nobody can say which individuals would be on the board if the elections were proper. Now it was a block voting which is not really democratic (a block of friends can do anything they want to, but a board with diversity there is always the natural "opposition" in every decision). And I didn't see anywhere anyone comparing the sports director (and other positions) candidates and their ideas. That was also ridiculous about the voting.

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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:54 am

It's absolutely true. Travelling to big events is sometimes a mess. When you spend 7 hours in a car to play only 2 games (and be charged 10 EUROS to play), it's not funny at all. I remember in 1994 we had a tournament in Belgium in the same week-end as the world cup and we had about 50 players coming. At the time, I don't think anyone was worried to know who was winning the world cup... We just had fun to play games. Small tournaments are important because weaker players must have fun as well, in particular in countries where the level is high (Italy, Belgium, Greece,...). Now that Kechris thinks these tournaments should not count for the world rankings is an opinion that I can not understand. That's life...
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Thossa on Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:36 am

Is it necessary to give price-money at Major ? Mad I think no...
Without price-money it is possible to reduce the entry fee Exclamation
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:54 am

Basically the idea of the prize-money was that it was given by sponsors. But the problem is that organizers regard the "weak" players as the sponsors...
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Re: Major 2011-2012 a proposal

Post  Thossa on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:30 am

Will there be price-money given at the next Major in Bologna in May?
I can not find an announce on Riccardos website for that scratch
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