junta in Greece

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junta in Greece

Post  kechris on Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:56 am

I receive this mail by Koutis Triantafyllou. They decided in argument with FISTF (stefano de francesco) and Koutroumanos to cancel the greek federation and to create another. They didn't ask the rest 150 greek players and the 12 clubs. They want all greek players to vote but they didn't ask the greek players. Congratulations.

the mail:

Gentlemen
As you all remember a few days ago we proposed to the leaders of the two opposite parties (kechris and koutroumanos) to reach to a compromise via patfap statutes and to have elections with all players.
Koutroumanos responded that this can be done in a ''legal'' way, only if every founding member of patfap (27) agrees to this solution. This could not proceed because two of the founding members desaggreed with this proposal.Then koutroumanos pointed that if no agreement is possible, then he will help us to built a new federation.
Kechris proposed that in order things to be done in a ''legal'' way, elections must be done only with the founding members. After that everybody can register to patfap and new elections can be done in a month. He wrote that he asked his lawyers. Koutromanos disagree to this proposal, because he said that the not founding members can only vote after one year. He stated that he asked his lwyers too.
We are not lawyers or judges so to know for sure what is right and what is wrong in this situation. And we don't want any more trouble with courts if we decide this or that.So in conclusion no compromise was made by kechris and koutroumanos to find a solution within patfap statutes. From this moment patfap is no longer the federation that represents Hellas to Fistf. Until elections will be made, we are going to supervise the remaining tournaments (national championship and major) in order not to have fights for who will be responsible for them (kechris or koutroumanos).
As fistf has proposed to us , a new federation (where all players listed in W.R of march will be able to elect and been elected) is going to be created. We expect kechris to help to this efford , like koutroumanos stated that he will. All procedures and elections will be finished before the end of june.All the club leaders will be officially informed ,in a short time, about the exact plan and the way the new federation will procceed (for elections and everything else). Before announcing the plan, all the club leaders will be asked to write down their opinions for the new federation and send them to us. Fistf will be informed for the plan's progress.
Be sure that we want the best for our sport.
Yours in sport
Konstantinos Triantafillou
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:30 am

What I really don't understand (as a "connoisseur" of the whole hellas matter) is WHY the new board interfered right now ? It makes no sense at this stage as a court decision exists which shows the way to continue ... Interfering will destroy more than develop. Is it a tactical game ? Is it just stupidity ?

If it is a tactical game: what kind of output can be expected ? Who will be supported and why ? What happens if the planned output won't be reached ?

If it is stupidity: GOOD LUCK for the rest tenure of office.
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  dromer on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:15 pm

It would be a surprise to me if the next Greek president isn't Leonidas K or one of his friends.

Would it be possible that the Bod is allready thinking about votes for a next election?
I started thinking about that after they made Mike Burns part of that council thing, and now with the way they handle the Greek case i have the impression that the Bod doesn't like the idea if Kechris becoming president, they might loose a vote.

Well maybe i see ghosts

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Thossa on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:26 pm

dromer wrote:
Well maybe i see ghosts

...or unpainted figures? lol!


Last edited by Thossa on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  The Rock on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:32 pm

'''''''''''''''''''They decided in argument with FISTF (stefano de francesco) and Koutroumanos''''''''''

Stefano and fistf has pointed that the first attemt would be a compromise via patfap's statutes. That was done but the two parties did't reach to a solution. It is unfortunate, but this is the parties responsibility and noone else's. As i had stated i don't care if we continue with patfap or with a new federation. I only want everyone to be able to vote and to stop the court fights.

''''''''''''''''''' to cancel the greek federation and to create another'''''''''''''''''

You and koutroumanos had plenty of opportunities to make a compromise in order patfap to continue to be the association that represents hellas to fistf. If someone destroyed patfap ,as you say, is you and koutromanos that you couldn,t find a solution.

'''''''''''''''' They didn't ask the rest 150 greek players and the 12 clubs. They want all greek players to vote but they didn't ask the greek players.''''''''''''''''

In this point the people who are at courts are you and koutroumanos. Even if every one else wanted to continue with patfap (which many of them they don,t) this could happen only if you and koutroumanos could make a compromise. You didn't, so the rest of the players could't help. You and koutroumanos fight at courts . Not the rest of the players.

"''''''''''''' Congratulations.'''''''''''''

Thanks but i believe that you have a big part of responsibillity in this situation. Not kostas, me , or anyone else
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  von K. on Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:06 am

Janus had good questions. I add a few points, too.

I don't have an opinion regarding the right solution for Hellas (except that it should be according to the law and the rules). I only see some strange scenarios here. And most of all regarding FISTF and the position of FISTF, which is very dubious.

kechris wrote:From this moment patfap is no longer the federation that represents Hellas to Fistf.

Interesting information from a person who says he is not a lawyer nor a judge. What is the legality of such a decision? Who has the authority to make such a decision?

And what if there are 2 associations in a country. Who decides which is the FISTF association (only 1 allowed) and on what grounds? And how could an existing association be overthrown if it continues to exist?

Is it the Congress, or is it ”the brotherhood”, that decides?

kechris wrote:Until elections will be made, we are going to supervise the remaining tournaments (national championship and major) in order not to have fights for who will be responsible for them (kechris or koutroumanos).

I'm sorry, but I seem to have misunderstood the rules. As Greece has no association, and is not part of FISTF, at least the bigger FISTF competitions can not be played (i.e. the Major that is not allowed in the rules anyway).

And what about the World Cup in Hellas? It was given to Patfap. If Patfap is no more part of FISTF, then the WC is also cancelled until new application process. And it should be noted that it was applied by a BoD that was elected against the rules, and decided also by a FISTF BoD member who is the same who applied for it as an illegally elected Patfap President.

Am I missing something about the rules, or is it so that the rules are again irrelevant?

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  von K. on Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:45 am

I'll answer myself on on point. This below is from the statutes. So FISTF BoD has no right to exclude Patfap even if another association would be created in Greece. It is only the right of the Congress.

V — Sanctions
Art. 21
21-1 The following sanctions may be imposed on National Associations, as well as on individuals and clubs
members of such National Association, by the Congress or the Board of Directors:
a) The admonition; or
b) The official warning; or
c) The fine; or
d) The suspension; or
e) The exclusion.
21-2 Only the Congress, on a proposal from the Board of Directors, is allowed to pronounce the exclusion of a
Member.

21-3 A suspended Member, as well as the Players and Clubs affiliated with it, shall loose all benefits of
membership for the duration of the suspension, while still retaining all the obligations of a Member.

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Janus_Gersie on Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:46 pm

von K. wrote:...
21-1 The following sanctions may be imposed on National Associations, as well as on individuals and clubs
members of such National Association, by the Congress or the Board of Directors:
a) The admonition; or
b) The official warning; or
c) The fine; or
d) The suspension; or
e) The exclusion.
21-2 Only the Congress, on a proposal from the Board of Directors, is allowed to pronounce the exclusion of a
Member.

21-3 A suspended Member, as well as the Players and Clubs affiliated with it, shall loose all benefits of
membership for the duration of the suspension, while still retaining all the obligations of a Member.[/i]

Vesa, valid and essential info ! Thank you. I will place it in the other forum, if you don't mind.
I am so tupid. I didn't see this mpoint though I already exercised the statutes ....
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  panagios on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:34 am

The solution proposed (FISTF has not made it official to be fair) is against the Laws of the Greek (I do not use the term Hellenic on purpose) Republic.

Since this proposal goes against the law, do you seriously believe that the Statutes are an issue?


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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Thossa on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:55 am

Hi Panagios,
I have hope, the current FISTF BoD noticed already what serios mistake they are producing, if they would make their "decision" about PATFAP offical. I think they are so clever and really rethink it not to burn the fingers.
This BoD starts with no credits because of their history as part of the Catania dilemma (4 out of 5 members).

So, not errors are allowed Neutral
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  panagios on Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:44 am

I hope so Thossa, although, from what I learn and read, the situation is not good. I have no problem with the concept they propose for elections... I just see that they have an issue understanding that they must follow a legal solution.

I am very tired with the situation in Greece. I thought that the Janus solution was also a mistake, something that will always follow Kechris. I started playing in an organized fashion 4 years ago when Koutroumanos and Kechris were on the same side and have followed the problem from the very beginning. Something must be done, it must be done properly and I hope that all the Greeks show that they are mature enough to take care of their own problems.

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:57 pm

panagios wrote:I am very tired with the situation in Greece. I thought that the Janus solution was also a mistake, ...

Yeap, Panagios, indeed "my" solution wasn't best BUT I am convinced we would have been far further and at that time it seemed to be the only solution. Now you (or better: the greeks) starts again the whole issue. I can understand you are tired. For me it is easy: I can stand beside and watch who makes what mistake at which stage of the story again.

I really hope someone is able to cut the Gordian knot .... Greece deserves it !
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:09 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:
von K. wrote:...
21-1 The following sanctions may be imposed on National Associations, as well as on individuals and clubs
members of such National Association, by the Congress or the Board of Directors:
a) The admonition; or
b) The official warning; or
c) The fine; or
d) The suspension; or
e) The exclusion.
21-2 Only the Congress, on a proposal from the Board of Directors, is allowed to pronounce the exclusion of a
Member.

21-3 A suspended Member, as well as the Players and Clubs affiliated with it, shall loose all benefits of
membership for the duration of the suspension, while still retaining all the obligations of a Member.[/i]

Vesa, valid and essential info ! Thank you. I will place it in the other forum, if you don't mind.
I am so tupid. I didn't see this mpoint though I already exercised the statutes ....

Vesa, as promised I posted on the other forum. Though Giufaz was online he didn't comment. Coincidence ? If my argumentation is correct he has to turn by 180 degree ... I am so excited about his argumentation then ... most likely bla, bla, bla
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  panagios on Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:31 pm

Just to be clear, I am not blaming you personally since I have been informed and your posts and CV show that you are a very serious person. I am just stating the fact that when you live with the sword you die by the sword. The Gordian knot was cut by Alexander himself. He never asked for help Very Happy

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:49 pm

panagios wrote:Just to be clear, I am not blaming you personally since I have been informed and your posts and CV show that you are a very serious person.

Appreciated. Hopefully you took the right sources for gathering info about me! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:37 am

Hi everybody,

I am – if unenthusiastically – following the ongoing discussion over the Greek situation over both forums. I understand that you oppose the Board’s ‘decisionistic’ approach, and that you find it bordering on the limits of illegality. The latter might be true, even if the situation seems confused, and the one way to have any certainty would consist in seeking native legal advice.

However, I don’t quite see what solution you advocate in its stead. As far as I see, Kechris is the one person offering a concrete alternative. He would like to hold an election restricted to the old PATFAP members and after that organize general elections open to all players.

The problem with this solution is that Koutrumanos insists that, according to Greek law, the second elections can’t be held before one year has passed (something Kechris never denied, if I read all posts correctly), and since he abhors the idea of resigning power to his opponent for a full year, he and his supporters are going to disert the first election and immediately start a new lawsuit.

I believe none of us has any competence to estimate the juridical foundation of this controversy. What is certain is that the new lawsuit shall bring three more years of strife and uncertainty, tearing apart the Greek movement, and forcing FISTF to take away the WC and likely suspend all international activities in the country, simply out of concern of boycotts and legal suits around the events’ organization between (or even amongst!) the different factions.

In this sense the Board’s course of action seems to me a – perhaps tactless, yet sincere and wholehearted – attempt to safeguard the Greek movement from the consequences they are bringing over themselves. I frankly don’t know whether an element of personal favouritism is involved. But I would like those opposing the Board’s policy to state in plain words what alternative they would like to see implemented.

Whenever you avow that Greeks should be left to themselves and not intruded upon, do you advocate Kechris’ solution, even if it results in a fresh generation of lawsuits? Or do you have something else in your mind? Please believe that my questions conceal no ironic undertone. In the maelstrom of posts concerning the Greek quandary I have been able to isolate only two positions: Kechris’ and the Board’s. I would like to know if there is another one, and what it purports.
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:22 am

Lorenzo,

the problem is that FISTF is disregarding its own rules. Like it did in the Major of Greece. And it seems it is also disregarding the greek law.

I would have talked to both parties to find out the problem. Then I would have asked 3-5 names from Greece, who are accepted by both parties, to act as a commission to find a solution. And I would have let the greeks solve the situation themselves. All I would have insisted on, would have been that it has to be done according to the law and the rules. And that if a solution will not be found until a deadline (with enough time to work on it), a suspension or at first maybe a lighter sanction would follow.

Don't you think that it's a problem with a federation that constantly breaks its own rules, and which doesn't listen all parties equally?

Perhaps it would be better to keep out of the active process, because FISTF doesn't know the greek law. Perhaps it would be better just to give tools and help (if asked) for solving things, and intermediate carefully more generally.

This is how I would have done it, if it was my job. This was of course just the basic idea. The real work and how to make it happen is much more complicated.


Last edited by von K. on Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:58 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  drastis on Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:50 am

Lorenzo wrote:The problem with this solution is that Koutrumanos insists that, according to Greek law, the second elections can’t be held before one year has passed (something Kechris never denied, if I read all posts correctly), and since he abhors the idea of resigning power to his opponent for a full year, he and his supporters are going to disert the first election and immediately start a new lawsuit.

I believe none of us has any competence to estimate the juridical foundation of this controversy. What is certain is that the new lawsuit shall bring three more years of strife and uncertainty, tearing apart the Greek movement, and forcing FISTF to take away the WC and likely suspend all international activities in the country, simply out of concern of boycotts and legal suits around the events’ organization between (or even amongst!) the different factions.

Hello Lorenzo,

In the first paragraph you are describing the heart of the problem. That Koutroumanos abhors the idea of resigning power. This has been, is and will be the real problem. That there is someone who will accept no solution, unless this solution secures him his power.

Now, the fact that this person was found wrong in Court twice should tell FISTF something. Also, the fact that he is ready to create more problems instead of accepting a fair solution proposed by the majority of PATFAP founding members (not only Kechris), also should tell something to FISTF BoD.

We are not lawyers to say who is right (personally I believe that new members CAN vote immediately and not after one year, this is what our lawyers say), BUT if Koutroumanos wanted a fair and democratic solution he could simply avoid suing the first election. But, then again, what is the problem if he finally decides to sue against the election in PATFAP? PATFAP will continue functioning, as it did FOR THREE YEARS, when FISTF BoD had no problem to recognise as legal a BoD which was the outcome of an ILLEGAL election.

To make a long story short, FISTF should have not interfered, especially now that a Court decision has been issued. FISTF should keep recognising PATFAP and the BoD that will be formed after elections in PATFAP.

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:06 pm

Lorenzo,
your comment and suggestions in this matter are highly appreciated. As I was involved from the early beginning of the greek issue (I was FISTF mediator in 2008) I am almost the only foreigner knowing a bit more ....

The situation is clear for me: we have a second degree court's decision the greeks and FISTF have to follow. As always in the last three years both sides claims different results out of a decision.
But we and FISTF don't know the wording of the verdict. In my opinion (not proved!) the argumentation from Mr. Koutroumanos is mainly a tactical manoeuvre.

In order to get best possible results for ALL greek players (who are the most important for us and FISTF) FISTF should have done the following:
1. Get a translated version of the verdict.
2. Let Giufaz (or somebody else) have a legal view on it.
3. The legal advisor should give a recommendation to the board.
4. Ask some formerly involved persons (e.g. me) for their opinion to complete the picture
5. Sit together with both sides and find a well accepted mediator (out of my experience only a greek mediator makes sense).
6. Let work the mediator (can also be a group of people!) something out. Main topic will be:
7. Clarify the election process in accordance with the verdict.
8. Elections

This process could be accompanied by a clear statement of sanctions if both sides don't follow. My mentioned way would mean FISTF is watching and supporting the process but not interfering. As we now have a verdict FISTF must not interfere in internal matters. It should be clear not to interfere as Mr. Koutroumanos is member of the board! All the board is doing now will be regarded as nepotism ...

In my opinion the board acted to fast without knowing hard facts in detail and without knowing some nicky tricky soft facts. They should have asked for it ....

And the whole process can only be accompanied by FISTF respecting the own statutes (as I already mentioned in the SN forum). Publishing THIS kind of decision was a huge mishap which is not really confidence-building. It can become fast a non-starter ...

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  kechris on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:18 am

Ex-illegal elected-proved by two court decisions- president refuse to accept that he is not president yet.
He cann't accept that the court have more power than him.
But why he insist that he will go again to courts? He doen't respect the court decisions but he will go again to courts?
If he believes that he is president now he can make elections again. Do you think that the court will accept that he did one more time a mistake by accident and he does't respect the decision?
If he does't not respect the court decision the judge will be so HAPPY!!!

I proposed a legal way for fair elections.
FISTF now ask fair elections. The delegates also.
FISTF need legal elections by countries-members.
The other side now want fair elections but no with legal way.
So
FISTF AND DELEGATES must ask by FISTF's BoD member to respect and accept the legal and fair elections without create new problems with courts. We will loose time without reason.
If one FISTF's BoD member will not respect the fair and legal decisions and elections then the rest BoD members must ask by him to retired by vice president.

This was the opinion of sport director vice president. In his country (italy) the italian BoD sent off the one person who created problems.
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Lorenzo on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:56 pm

Lots of interesting points lads.

Janus, your words have the ring of truth, and almost everything you write might be right. The problem is that we can’t say anything for sure.

We don’t know whether Koutrumanos’ caveat is a bluff or if the juridical situation is still fluid. We don’t know whether or not the Board investigated the issue’s legal implications before deciding the present course of actions. In the hypothesis that they did, and they felt that Koutrumanos’ case has a legal foundation (or simply that the legal implications were too complex to be assessed from without), they might have assumed that there was no point in starting another process of appeasement similar to the ones that had failed so miserably in the past, and that a direct, forceful approach might be more effective.

Remember, the policy you recommend would take time, and in the meantime the fresh lawsuit – assuming it was no pretence - would start and plunge Greece in more years of strife. I think Piero and Stefano regard all those involved in the Greek lawsuits as overgrown, fractious children, and they probably hope that some pressure shall persuade them to give in. They still may be proven right.

As far as the issue of legality is concerned, I think the new Board has broken no rule in regard to the Greek situation to this moment, and Giulio Fazio guarantees that everything shall be done according to the statutes. They are probably going to suspend all FISTF activities in Greece, take away the WC and then ask the Congress to dismiss PATFAP, in agreement with your own suggestions.

And besides “ist derjenige Souverän, der über den Ausnahmezustand entscheidet” (Carl Schmitt). What is true for states is also true for sport associations, if you take my hint Wink Twisted Evil

Now guys don’t get me wrong. I am not looking for cavils to prop up the existing Board. I am simply trying to keep in mind how problematic and ill-defined the situation is. If the Board should be more careful in taking its resolves, perhaps you might be a little more cautious before condemning them in tongues of fire.

We shall see what happens. As in most things of life, the final outcome will be probably determined more by blind luck than by wisdom or competence, and it won’t say anything about the rights and wrongs of the persons involved.

PS: Kechris, I take notice of your opinions. However, if you are looking for a legal and democratic solution, may I ask you the reason why you keep rejecting Koutrumanos’ suggestion to dissolve PATFAP and start a similar association, one that might immediately indict general elections accessible to all members? It is my understanding that such a solution would be legally faultless, as long as all founding members accept PATFAP’s dissolution.
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  von K. on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:13 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
As far as the issue of legality is concerned, I think the new Board has broken no rule in regard to the Greek situation to this moment, and Giulio Fazio guarantees that everything shall be done according to the statutes. They are probably going to suspend all FISTF activities in Greece, take away the WC and then ask the Congress to dismiss PATFAP, in agreement with your own suggestions.

Lorenzo, the Major in Greece is completely against the rules of FISTF. If you are so sure about this, why don't you ask what the BoD and Giulio answer to this? They have not answered yet, I think. But the question has been asked for a long long time ago.

I will believe in legality and following rules and statutes, when I see it. At the moment trust regarding these is completely impossible. Promises have been broken too much by the BoD members after Frankfurt, so instead of blind trust there has to be proper documentation and information about the reasons for this, who made the decision (Koutroumanos also?), who were consulted (Kechris?), what were the other options BoD thought of and why they chose this?

Lorenzo wrote:We shall see what happens. As in most things of life, the final outcome will be probably determined more by blind luck than by wisdom or competence, and it won’t say anything about the rights and wrongs of the persons involved.

A lucky final outcome has no bearing when we evaluate the competence of persons, or the reasons for making a decision. If you only judge the results, you would have to evaluate George Bush jr. in the year 2030 (when maybe the Iraq war is finally over).

Lorenzo wrote:PS: Kechris, I take notice of your opinions. However, if you are looking for a legal and democratic solution, may I ask you the reason why you keep rejecting Koutrumanos’ suggestion to dissolve PATFAP and start a similar association, one that might immediately indict general elections accessible to all members? It is my understanding that such a solution would be legally faultless, as long as all founding members accept PATFAP’s dissolution.

The question was for Kechris. But I just want to know why Kechris should now accept something Koutroumanos suggests only after losing power in 2 courts? I would ask why Koutroumanos didn't suggest this earlier, if he wants a democratic solution? After 3 years of asking for justice for Patfap, they should just abandon Patfap now?

By the way, I don't think people here are condemning people with tongues of fire. People are only interested in having answers, and expecting proper decisions which are based on objectivity and consultation of all parties concerned. This decision interests all member associations because of possible decisions in the future (FISTF could decide almost anything without even consulting).

I would also ask why the BoD doesn't use energy to help the Dutch association which, as a I have understood, is close to vanishing altogether? Why use energy to an association which has received a court ruling and is preparing elections based on that ruling?

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  drastis on Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:15 am

Lorenzo wrote:I think Piero and Stefano regard all those involved in the Greek lawsuits as overgrown, fractious children, and they probably hope that some pressure shall persuade them to give in. They still may be proven right.
Let me tell you Lorenzo that if Piero and Stefano think like this, they are totally wrong. The lawsuit against the elections of 2008 was no whim, it was the appropriate reaction to a deeply undemocratic action, orchestrated by Koutroumanos and his legal crew: The fact that the majority of PATFAP founding members (14 out of 27) were NOT ALLOWED to vote in 2008 elections. They were deprived their essential democratic rights to vote AND to be voted.
Regarding other lawsuits, let me inform you (if you don't know already) that Koutroumanos sued several people after 2008 elections. I was one of them, he sued me asking 200,000 (two hundred thousand) Euros, because I supposedly slandered him when I said that he committed a fraud election!!

So, please Lorenzo, no comparison between dissimilar motives.

Lorenzo wrote:
PS: Kechris, I take notice of your opinions. However, if you are looking for a legal and democratic solution, may I ask you the reason why you keep rejecting Koutrumanos’ suggestion to dissolve PATFAP and start a similar association, one that might immediately indict general elections accessible to all members? It is my understanding that such a solution would be legally faultless, as long as all founding members accept PATFAP’s dissolution.
Not a question for me, but I think I have the answer anyway. Koutroumanos remained "president" of PATFAP for THREE years, until the secong court decision overthrew him. He had been voted by 8 (eight) out of 27 founding members of PATFAP in an election that was proved ILLEGAL in two courts. Does anyone seriously believe that his main concern is a democratic election?? For three years, in the name of PATFAP he was threatening with lawsuits anyone who dared to speak against the situation. And now that he lost the court definately, he is suggesting the dissolution of PATFAP. Why? Because, in a new association he will have the chance to do the same again, while inside PATFAP he stands no chance at all.

After all, why should PATFAP founding members (there is not only Kechris) accept to abandon PATFAP, after having spent 3 years of their time and a lot of money in a legal dispute they finally won? WHY?

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Re: junta in Greece

Post  kechris on Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:26 pm

sorry Lorenzo.
I tried yesreday to answer you but during writing my post-answer i slept.
The last month i am working many hours -8am until 12pm.
If you look the time of my posts are to late or to early except some afternoons when i took my children to football or dance.
Drastis gave good answer for me.

Only one extra question by me.
Can you find the reasons which Koutroumanos prefer elections out of PATFAP?
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Re: junta in Greece

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:01 pm

Sorry for the delay in answering guys, I have very little free time these days.

Drastis,

first off, please bear in mind that non-Greeks largely ignore the reasons and the backgroundfor your inner conflict, are ignorant of Greek law and incessantly confronted with two opposite versions of the facts, uncompromisingly upheld by people who are unwilling to offer a more nuanced, impartial account, and who are busy to sling insults and accusations to each other.

Under such conditions one doesn’t often know whom to believe and at what extent.


drastis wrote:After all, why should PATFAP founding members (there is not only Kechris) accept to abandon PATFAP, after having spent 3 years of their time and a lot of money in a legal dispute they finally won? WHY?

Well, if the main goal is to hold general elections open to all players, I thought it mattered little whether they are summoned by PATFAP or by an identical association bearing the a slightly different name.

I hadn’t thought that starting a new association would alter the current juridical framework and grant your opponents an opportunity to overstep the existing courts' deliberations. If that is so, you have a good point.

von K. wrote:Lorenzo, the Major in Greece is completely against the rules of FISTF. If you are so sure about this, why don't you ask what the BoD and Giulio answer to this? They have not answered yet, I think. But the question has been asked for a long long time ago.

I will believe in legality and following rules and statutes, when I see it. At the moment trust regarding these is completely impossible. Promises have been broken too much by the BoD members after Frankfurt, so instead of blind trust there has to be proper documentation and information about the reasons for this, who made the decision (Koutroumanos also?), who were consulted (Kechris?), what were the other options BoD thought of and why they chose this?

Obviously, I referred to the new Board as an entity independent from the previous one. If you charge the former with the faults of the latter, we enter a wholly different order of thought.
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