"Major" of Athens

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Admin on Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:46 am

The Major in Greece is a total joke: no communication, no website, no promotion,... and at the end there are no foreign players. In no way this tournament is attractive for foreign players. At the end, it just doesn't deserve to be a Major.
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Thossa on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:48 am

Kostas,
be sure, Subbuteo in hellas has my deepest respect. You have all the time a lot of great and a lot of obscure players. Nevertheless I don´t know why all the times nobody wants to travel to Greece to play in FISTF tournaments.
I think it is too easy to make all former BoD-members responsible for it. At least it was only Oli Pére and Heinz Eder as responsible Sports Directors who made the calenders. But are they really responsable for the ignorance of all others to participate at greek tournaments?
Maybe the whole greek community should take a deep look inside to find out the reason for all those not coming foreign players.
Try to find it.


kechris wrote:sorry Thossa but i disagree with you.
yes greek major has not many foreign participations but the problem is the competition manager but also the foreign players.
Every year many Greek players and teams taking part in Berlin (HAVE I RIGHT MARCUS?) but i remember only once a German player took part in Greek G.P.
Who is responsible for this?
The FISTF BoD the last years. And you were vice president.
Why?
Because you allowed many tournaments in central europe so the people prefer to travel in close places with low cost than to travel with aeroplane at the south east corner of europe.
Greek players travel very often to england france belgium germany austria italy spain malta finland BUT THE PLAYERS OF THESE COUNTRIES DIDN'T VISIT GREECE.

Sorry i respect you but the ex Bod WAS THE CERTAIN RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS SITUATION.
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  maxischn on Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:50 am

after and at the current situation i doubt that strangers would like to travel to greece, personally i have doubts that there won't be any shouting and fighting, so i don't even think about going there.... giving a major is too soon after all those problems....
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  von K. on Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:23 am

Kostas, I don't travel a lot, but I have an experience I would like you to take into account, because it would make at least me choose other destinations.

We played Greece in team competition of World Cup in Rotterdam. I played against a person who I believe also organises some tournaments in Greece. I scored a goal for 3-3. The referee went to the result board to mark the goal. My opponent started playing, and lost the ball with his starting touch, as the ball hit my figure. The player then took the ball, put it back into center spot and said "start again".

You can just imagine that I thought I was dreaming. This was in a World Cup! So I just thought "what a piece of shit for a player, and a complete joke", and just decided to win the game. Finally I won against him 5-4 with just a minute remaining when I scored the winner. I didn't even celebrate, because he was such an asshole from doing that, that he didn't even deserve to make me happy for beating him (even if it was my first win in World Cup). He never apologised...

Now, I'm certainly not saying all greeks are like that. Practically all others have been ok or great. But if you have an organiser who does this as a player, you don't expect people to come, and you lose credibility. It gives a bad image of Greece, as he he is representing Greece in World Cup. Same could be said of a person representing Greece in a particular meeting last year. One or two rotten eggs spoil the whole basket. Sad but true.

I would certainly have a good thought about this kind of things, and how they affect the image of Greece as a place for nice tournaments. It's a pity for the other players, but maybe it would be good for them to clean this kind of stuff out. And not just diminish the thing (I heard some people in Greece expected a lot worse, when George told them about it, and thought that was quite normal for this guy). I don't know how you see it. And you do as you see is best in your country.

The calendar with too many tournaments in other parts of Europe doesn't help. But I don't believe it is the only reason.

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  The Rock on Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:50 pm

''''''''Maybe the whole greek community should take a deep look inside to find out the reason for all those not coming foreign players.
Try to find it.'''''''''''

The reason is that the cost is high and all of you prefare to travell by car and not by plane in order to spend less money. Also the level of local players is high , so there are not easy points to gain. All other things mentioned are excuses. Many of as spend a lot of money to travell everywhere. We deserve more respect. Stop discussing all the time about Hellas. Find something better to do.

''''''At the end, it just doesn't deserve to be a Major.''''''''

With all our problems we had more participations than mattersburg. I know that you prefer all the majors to be near your home and to drive 2-3 hours in order to play. But subbuteo world is not only Brussels and Amsterdam. Focus your criticism to the things that are wrong and not to hellenic table football in general.

''''''Practically all others have been ok or great. '''''''''

My friend. You know how much i respect you. Keep this opinion always in your mind. In this forum i am fed up to see many people criticising hellas (some times without good reasons). It is better to criticise persons and actions and not countries.
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  von K. on Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:42 pm

The Rock wrote:
''''''Practically all others have been ok or great. '''''''''

My friend. You know how much i respect you. Keep this opinion always in your mind. In this forum i am fed up to see many people criticising hellas (some times without good reasons). It is better to criticise persons and actions and not countries.

The respect is mutual, George. I understand it's frustrating when persons and countries get mixed. I also have understood that most problems are created by the same minority. But sadly it affects the general opinion of the country. It can be seen also in the forums. This is what I wanted to point out.

I'm talking about how people react to some things. Not whether this reaction is right or wrong. Often it is wrong. This is why it is even more important for all those others to condemn the problematic actions of the few people in some way. In my example there were some greek people watching the game, and none of them said anything during or after the game.

However, to be equal, I could also tell here that when I was a referee in a team game (U-15) in Rain, there was a greek boy who played, and it was maybe the father or a team coach who watched. The boy thought I made a mistake, and tried to say something (with respect and quietly), but instantly the father/coach told the boy to keep concentrating on playing and not criticise the referee. Unfortunately people remember and talk about the bad things more easily, as you can see every day from the news.

I understand the problems with the calendar that affect all the countries that are not easily reached. I have criticised it in this forum before, and suggested a better system should be developed. I also know that many problems are created by FISTF, because they allow strange things to happen. And then people think it is Greece's fault when many times (like the Major, which I have criticised, because it broke FISTF rules) it is the fault of FISTF.

I hope you get your internal problem fixed, and then I hope the problematic behaviour of some few players will be taken seriously. Greek TF deserves a lot better than the problems that always steal the headlines. And Greek TF should always be superior to such boorish behaviour I saw in Rotterdam. I'm sure that after those things many people would see things differently.

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Kaitsu on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:44 am

Was there some elections during the tournament and what's the result? Or was this the same "elections" with only one candidate?
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  von K. on Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:33 pm

A question to Piero Capponi regarding this Major:

1. Piero Capponi wrote (in March, I think) that the reason for not cancelling this Major was that players had already bought plain tickets, and would lose money.

I saw only 3 foreign names in the results!

Piero Capponi, who were the persons you referred to when you told that as the reason to go on with this tournament that you also considered was given against the FISTF rules?

If there were no players, who already had plain tickets, then you told a lie. Plain and simple. No polemics. Just a fact.

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  kechris on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:26 am

I agree with all of you.
Rock wrote the truth. Greece is an expensive journey and a difficult tournament.
Thossa has right that the bad situation in Greece is a problem for a player who spend money travelling to play here.
Kaitsu, elections didn't take place in saturday as FISTF decided. I heard that Koutroumanos forget the ballots...
Vesa,I don't know if Capponi told lies for foreign players or he took wrong informations by competition manager but i know that Capponi didn't travel to Greece as ALL FISTF BoD AND PARTNERS WROTE DURING LAST WEEK.
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Kaitsu on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:36 am

kechris wrote:elections didn't take place in saturday as FISTF decided. I heard that Koutroumanos forget the ballots...

Capponi didn't travel to Greece as ALL FISTF BoD AND PARTNERS WROTE DURING LAST WEEK.
I'm dissapointed as i thought that Greece would finally be able to take one big step forward to heal their situation. Any idea about new date or is it in the hands of loved and trusted BoD?
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:14 am

Rock, of course the costs play a role in that whole "problem", but there are other countries which are expensive too to travel and players/teams travel there.
Personally I think that the internal problems are also a big reason for not coming to Greece, even if there would be less tournaments in all other countries I fear that actually not many would do the trip. I was at the last EC in Greece, the tournament was good and the weather was great, but the happenings around the tournament weren't very nice. Reading all the stuff around it doesn't help too.
I know that there are many good and nice players in Greece who would deserve it that many foreign players would come to visit your tournaments.
Now there is the economical problem in Greece too, which doesn't really help, because it is a kind of risk to travel at the moment, because you never know if you will come back on the day you planned to go home.
The strength of the local players isn't a big reason, many clubs travel to belgium and some also to italy where the local players have a high level too. At the big events the level of local players isn't important, when many strong clubs/players from other countries take part.
The Major is a critical point, where a lot of missinterpretation happened I fear. I think nobody is against a greek Major in general, but the rules actually don't allow that. The board missed it to change those rules since january 2010, it is only one sentence which has to be changed, then nobody would have a problem for sure.
I also wouldn't compare majors, you had more players in athens, but the number of different nationalities was low, mattersburg attracts for many years players from 10 + different countries.

So let's hope for the future.

The Rock wrote:''''''''Maybe the whole greek community should take a deep look inside to find out the reason for all those not coming foreign players.
Try to find it.'''''''''''

The reason is that the cost is high and all of you prefare to travell by car and not by plane in order to spend less money. Also the level of local players is high , so there are not easy points to gain. All other things mentioned are excuses. Many of as spend a lot of money to travell everywhere. We deserve more respect. Stop discussing all the time about Hellas. Find something better to do.

''''''At the end, it just doesn't deserve to be a Major.''''''''

With all our problems we had more participations than mattersburg. I know that you prefer all the majors to be near your home and to drive 2-3 hours in order to play. But subbuteo world is not only Brussels and Amsterdam. Focus your criticism to the things that are wrong and not to hellenic table football in general.

''''''Practically all others have been ok or great. '''''''''

My friend. You know how much i respect you. Keep this opinion always in your mind. In this forum i am fed up to see many people criticising hellas (some times without good reasons). It is better to criticise persons and actions and not countries.

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Thossa on Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:07 am

What is the sense of a FISTF-Major?

To collect a lot of players from different countries in a large hall with many tables with a good tournament management and in a attractive athmospheare.

As long as these components are not proofed over some years it is ridicilous to give a FISTF-Major tournament at any place in the world. Par example: as Elbeuf decided to stop making the Major, the team of De Bruin & Thoen was first choice for FISTF BoD to replace Elbeuf as 4th FISTF Major, because they proofed with the GP of Amsterdam over many years their competence and all the other criterias were fulfilled.

As long as Athens don´t fullfill these criterias it shouldn´t be place for a FISTF-Major, nore as replace for one of the other four tournaments (Amsterdam, Bologna, Mattersburg, Mons), neither as added fourth with breaking the rules in FISTF handbook.

Are there any reasons against my point of view? Just let me know.
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:50 am

sorry to correct you Thossa, but our first choice was London and then after the organizers didn't manage it to make it, we decided that Amsterdam should be the new Major instead of Elbeuf.

Thossa wrote:What is the sense of a FISTF-Major?

To collect a lot of players from different countries in a large hall with many tables with a good tournament management and in a attractive athmospheare.

As long as these components are not proofed over some years it is ridicilous to give a FISTF-Major tournament at any place in the world. Par example: as Elbeuf decided to stop making the Major, the team of De Bruin & Thoen was first choice for FISTF BoD to replace Elbeuf as 4th FISTF Major, because they proofed with the GP of Amsterdam over many years their competence and all the other criterias were fulfilled.

As long as Athens don´t fullfill these criterias it shouldn´t be place for a FISTF-Major, nore as replace for one of the other four tournaments (Amsterdam, Bologna, Mattersburg, Mons), neither as added fourth with breaking the rules in FISTF handbook.

Are there any reasons against my point of view? Just let me know.

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  von K. on Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:44 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:sorry to correct you Thossa, but our first choice was London and then after the organizers didn't manage it to make it, we decided that Amsterdam should be the new Major instead of Elbeuf.

Heinz, I think that the point by Thossa is still very clear. According to that Amsterdam had earned it's status as a possible Major, and still had to wait its turn, and not just be added as a fifth.

In fact this situation is a bit like adding a fifth Grand Slam in tennis, although in smaller scale and by disregarding all written rules about the matter.

I'd still like to know who the players were, that Capponi meant. Those with the infamous plane tickets...

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Admin on Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:06 pm

Whatever happens, winning Athens will never have the same prestige as winning MONS. Athens will always be "the small Major". Sad reality...
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:41 am

I know his point thanks, but maybe you didn't get my point. Cool
The first choice, which was London didn't deserve that status too it was only a try because London was central and good to travel from everywhere, but the tournaments in London were not on the level to be a Major in that periode.
I don't want to defend that decision, but I think if the Major won't be attended by many foreigners, the tournament won't have that status for a longer time. It was the first edition now, there were some rumours around it, the general situation in greece and greek tablesoccer wasn't an advantage too, so I think to judge about the tournament right now is maybe a bit early.
One more time I want to say clearly that I'm actually against a Major in Greece, but the only reason is that rules don't allow it and it is a very bad taste if the tournament is organized by a board member, who always should be the first one to respect the handbook.

von K. wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:sorry to correct you Thossa, but our first choice was London and then after the organizers didn't manage it to make it, we decided that Amsterdam should be the new Major instead of Elbeuf.

Heinz, I think that the point by Thossa is still very clear. According to that Amsterdam had earned it's status as a possible Major, and still had to wait its turn, and not just be added as a fifth.

In fact this situation is a bit like adding a fifth Grand Slam in tennis, although in smaller scale and by disregarding all written rules about the matter.

I'd still like to know who the players were, that Capponi meant. Those with the infamous plane tickets...

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  kechris on Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:49 pm

Admin wrote:Whatever happens, winning Athens will never have the same prestige as winning MONS. Athens will always be "the small Major". Sad reality...

Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Mons?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Bologna?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Malta?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Madrid?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Paris?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Milton Keynes?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Wienna?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Roma?
Do you know how many greek players and clubs took part last years in Berlin?

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY ITALIAN BELGIUM FRANCE AUSTRIAN GERMAN ENGLISH SPANISH PLAYERS TOOK PART IN ATHENS?

NO SMALL ATHENS MAJOR BUT GREAT GREEKS PLAYERS.

ANY PROBLEM WITH MY COMMENT?
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  Admin on Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:28 pm

Sorry Kostas but a Major with 3 foreign players is a total joke.
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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  von K. on Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:29 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:maybe you didn't get my point. Cool
The first choice, which was London didn't deserve that status too it was only a try because London was central and good to travel from everywhere, but the tournaments in London were not on the level to be a Major in that periode.

I didn't get your point, Heinz. I didn't know this. It has not been discussed on this forum before, if I remember correctly. That's why I thought that you understood Thossa wrong.

I think marketing or politics are not the right reasons to give a Major anywhere. They should be tournaments that already hold Major "class", and are just promoted from GP's.

Heinz Eder wrote:One more time I want to say clearly that I'm actually against a Major in Greece, but the only reason is that rules don't allow it and it is a very bad taste if the tournament is organized by a board member, who always should be the first one to respect the handbook.

I have the same reason for being against this Major.

If it is a good enough tournament or not to receive such status and fulfill the criteria given in the rules, I don't know.

In any case the FISTF BoD should remain impartial in these matters, and definitely not name their own tournaments as Majors. This was given when the BoD (without a Sports director) consisted of these persons: Catania, Koutroumanos, Garnier (sick?), Collins. It's just ludicrous that this decision was not corrected by the present BoD because of "plane tickets that foreigners had bought already".

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Re: "Major" of Athens

Post  kechris on Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:44 pm

Admin wrote:Sorry Kostas but a Major with 3 foreign players is a total joke.

You have right.
So next year i am waiting at least your club in Greece.
I played in past in Charleroi Mons Vervie Temploux Tournai and etc.
And many Greek players the same.
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