EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:03 pm

pierocapponi wrote:I write this intervention, my first and last as president in this forum, one year after Congress Frankfurth.

I will not respond to insults on Vincent Copenolle , I'll do in court. (Incidentally, remains formally Coppenolle Vice President to the communication because it has not sent his formal resignation.)

I will give my version of what has taken place in recent days, especially from the point at which Silvio Catania has decided not to Madrid.

Last Thursday the AFM FISCT and have submitted a formal proposal to Finland, Belgium, Austria and Germany for a compromise solution.

The proposed board was formed by Jurik, Vesa, Copenolle, Capponi, De Francesco and Guerrero. We expected the response and Coppenolle Friday afternoon said no to this solution. His problem was still Francesco. Vesa, at 3 am on Friday also said no, then your idea was that Coppenolle and De Francesco did not have to be on the board. Markus Jurik agreed with this solution.

On Friday night at a restaurant in Madrid and after talking with my fellow board Spanish, I decided to run for president. Sorry for Markus, who has been "betrayed" but it also wanted to work with De Francesco as posted in this forum these days.

Yet, and has been a year, nobody wanted intende our future, the future of the FISTF, the future of Subbuteo, double thread is tied with Italy.

Without Italy, in 2011, does not exist and not exist FISTF the Subbuteo. Italy, in a demonstration of consistency and presented as an option attached to the board as long as only De Francesco, because it is their role in the Italian movement, the representation of Italy at international level.

Italy has 1099 players and only one candidate. Other countries should learn. The refusal to work with is the refusal to find a global solution.

The absence of candidates in Congress (not present Coppenolle, Busing, Aggelinas, Vulpes, Vesa, Jurik, Drazinakis) did not allow the search for other solutions.

"Politics is the art of the possible," said Winston Churchill (who was not Spanish ...).

At the conference, thanks to the extraordinary work of Giulio Fazio, Laurent Garnier, Janus Gersie, Titi Giuax (Titi chapeau by as you defend your ideas and your data), Jose Antonio Pezzi (the lawyer who represented Belgium) and Alan Collins, we have allowed everyone vote, procedura very "unusual" but looking for the maximum democracy.

In this regard, and to avoid problems, to Greece has decided not to insist on their intention to vote.

The results will know her and the reactions of the alleged "democrats" in this forum or on facebook too. I will elsewhere.

I will not explain here the work yesterday and today, also with Giaux and Gersie, we have implemented.

Points one and two are back to normal (Calendar, results and ranking) and contact with each federation to hear that their problems are. The first country to which I write is Scotland, which has chosen not to become a member of the FISTF this year.

I thank Fred Vulpes for agreeing to be Vice President of this board. With Janus agree that is a perfect solution and ensure complete transparency for all the accounts of our federation are in order and under his control.

Work also thank all the delegates arrived in Madrid who have managed, despite an initial atmosphere of tension, carry out the work.

As I wrote the first non I will speak more on this forum. This week will launch a FISTF Forum moderators to stimulate debate and reject the insult. There will my face and ideas available to all, as I always have in recent years.

By the way, is NOT true that Silvio Catania has been declared "persona non grata" in Congress. Not the style FISTF delegates.

Sorry for my english. I continue tu study.

Piero


The only insult I read this weekend was the way how the FISTF elections were done.
A full insult to every fair people in the FISTF community.
I would be ashamed if I were elected that way, and I would resign immediately.
But this isn't the kind of behaviour of everyone unfortunately.
I don't believe I will be invited for any FISTF comission, but I would not accept working for the current FISTF BoD also, for sure.
Making threats with Court in a public forum will not be a good start for a new president too.
We all are just waiting for the EGM minutes for understanding what really happened in Madrid this weekend.
Finally, I really hope you learn english rather than use an online translator.
We all want to understand the right meaning of the next FISTF circulars.
Now, I rest my case and I won't comment this again. It is a lost of time.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 am

For the umpteenth time: What happened to the finnish votes? (And the austrian and the greek.)

Why didn't you answer us if they had arrived, Piero? We did ask you to let us know.

What happened to the Garnier telephone vote (last official FISTF letter before the elections)? If it was illegal, it was clearly a scam to rid people the possibility to vote (who knows if someone had decided to travel on friday evening). And Garnier was then elected... Nice. Why criticise the procedings...

The amounts of votes don't tell me about positive democracy. 15 nations represented, and how many votes in different rounds...

In fact Frankfurt was much more democratic in the end. People new before who were the candidates. And everyone had the same possibility to vote. It was not according to statutes, but more democratic.

Having an equal possibility to vote is one of the basic ideas of democracy. To achieve this positive democracy takes exceptions. I know what the possibilities are as I work for a central electoral commission in Finland in all public elections. I just didn't want to get involved in this, because I was a candidate myself, and I considered I was challengeable in this aspect. Because of my work in electoral commission I also know how candidates are informed to behave.

The principle of equal possibility to vote makes the possibility of last minute changes to candidacies an unpleasant way of exploiting loopholes in the statutes. It gives a very good idea of a person who uses it, though.

Churchill was a wartime politician, Piero. You are a person who should care for the unity of a small community, not to create even more negative atmosphere by using loopholes in an ethically contestable way, and then even gloating proudly about it afterwards and talking about Churchill.

If you don't even understand the problems that have been mentioned, Piero, I don't have high hopes about you understanding the problems of the global TF. You have already before shown little understanding for example to the difference between countries to start with. Why should anyone think you suddenly have seen the light?

I heard your program is on the italian forum. Do you think it is the place where you should post it first? Taking into consideration also that it still isn't posted here. Equality, unity and globality...

p.s. I'm still waiting your answer to why your name was under the circular0006 and why you didn't keep that promise, Piero? If you answer that we can see if you can be trusted. (Same in fact for De Francesco and Koutroumanos, who's names were also there making a promise.)

p.s.2. I wouldnt' have had to write this here, but you promised me an explanation by email for tonight about your actions. But you haven't sent it so I will just have to continue asking more questions here.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:22 am

von K. wrote:p.s. I'm still waiting your answer to why your name was under the circular0006 and why you didn't keep that promise, Piero? If you answer that we can see if you can be trusted. (Same in fact for De Francesco and Koutroumanos, who's names were also there making a promise.)

p.s.2. I wouldnt' have had to write this here, but you promised me an explanation by email for tonight about your actions. But you haven't sent it so I will just have to continue asking more questions here.

Vesa,

Piero just announced that Vincent denied him access to this forum.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:46 am

Lorenzo wrote:Vesa,

Piero just announced that Vincent denied him access to this forum.

Really ? Where from do you get the information ?

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:50 am

Lorenzo wrote:Vesa,

Piero just announced that Vincent denied him access to this forum.
???
Bullshit?
Lies again to attack me?
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:55 am

If I understood well, Piero announced in the italian forum that it was himself who cancelled the access and he will open an oficial FISTF forum soon.

I quot his post: "Solo per vostra conoscenza, dopo la risposta sul Forum Internazionale, in cui no ho insultato nessuno, mi è stato cancellato l'accesso...

In settimana presenteremo in nuovo Forum FISTF fatto e gestito sul modello di Subbuteoforum."

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:02 am

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:If I understood well, Piero announced in the italian forum that it was himself who cancelled the access and he will open an oficial FISTF forum soon.

I quot his post: "Solo per vostra conoscenza, dopo la risposta sul Forum Internazionale, in cui no ho insultato nessuno, mi è stato cancellato l'accesso...

In settimana presenteremo in nuovo Forum FISTF fatto e gestito sul modello di Subbuteoforum."

No way Louis... the right translation is that Piero was banned by Vincent, and declared that a new official FISTF forum is in the works.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:03 am

Lorenzo wrote:
That’s exactly why the Italian leadership sincerely and truthfully looked for a settlement with Vincent behind the scenes, allowing for a sensible selection of mutually acceptable candidates.

Excuse me. Why is it always about Vincent and the italian leadership? FISTF is a lot more.

Italian sincerity to find mutually accepted candidates, when you have also written that Italy has over 1000 players and only one candidate, and we others should learn from it. Gravely illogical comment, Lorenzo. Which also makes your judgement about the italian work completely worthless.

De Francesco told me on thursday, when I tried to get him and Vincent to step aside for more calm atmosphere, that why would Italy have any other candidate, when he would anyway tell that person what to do. He would then also skip the responsibility for the decisions.

De Francesco also told me when I asked about commissions, that why would he with 40 years of TF experience have to ask some countries' and people's opinions. He knows better himself. He also gave me names which he refused to include in a sports commission. This confirmed me my idea of him, that he is not interested in argumentations or subjects as such. They have to be made by the right people from the right countries.

Well, I knew this already, as it was this January that he wrote to me that it was the first time he had taken me seriously. Nice attitude towards argumentated comments, after all we had already been in the Council at the same time...

This is the man who said in Rain with Catania that the World Cup for teams will be cancelled, when his rule of 6 men team was not at first accepted. He argumentated that it was already next season as it was in September. But I have always thought the World Cup ends the season, and that there is only one World Cup in one season. What would argumentation count, when someone just knows best automatically.

I have tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, even after the phone call. At some point there comes the limit.

Lorenzo wrote:He refused the agreement, perhaps in the belief to win the elections anyway, and instead lost them soundly. Lacking a compromise, the Italians strove to prevail by the customary means of demagogic plutocracy, er, democracy silent , including underhand deals. I ask myself whether the Belgian and German delegates were above similar means, or if they were simply outclassed at their own crooked table Basketball

Please, Lorenzo, tell me was I involved? Or Markus? Is the FISTF only some disgraceful countries and persons, who play games?

I didn't accept the blocks before the vote, and I don't accept them now. I saw too many people involved in things like that to have any trust for this federation again until many people step aside.

Do you think it is ok to cheat if others cheat, Lorenzo? In Finland we have one of the lowest rates of corruption in the world, and we despise that kind of thinking.

Lorenzo wrote:For sure the fact that Stefano and Piero withdrew their candidatures on Friday and then re-submitted them the next day, as well as Piero’s switch from marketing director to chairman, are no archetypes of electoral transparency, yet in the general casino (an Italian word addressing the sheer chaos that can be found in low-grade brothels) they don’t appear too conspicuous, either.

???

Is this "casino" system written somewhere in the statutes or is it given as aprocedure on how to get voted. All the time I rejected being drawn to any blocks, answering to Marco De Angelis (who had spoken with De Francesco) that I candidate only as an individual for FISTF, and even on friday when I was offered the GS post on a silver platter.

At least I can hold my head high. Not that you lot give a damn about a thing like that.

To me and to finns that "Casino" system appears very conspicuous indeed. Maybe you should also understand now that there are differences in cultures also regarding growing the game...

I'm really pissed to read this kind of crap from a person who has declared himself "super partes". Sorry, Lorenzo, I hope you give me reasons to think otherwise about you.

In fact I'm not very surprised. I've received pm:s in italian forum, when confronting De Francesco, that tell me everyone clearly don't share his views or his way of leadership. It tells a lot that these people have to write to a finnish unknown guy about this.

Lorenzo wrote: If Vincent was enthusiastic about voting by phone, Piero is allowed to switch his vocation overnight jocolor

You don't see any difference? Voting on the phone was not allowed, and yet it was confirmed by the FISTF (Garnier represented FISTF and no one denied this officially) to be a valid way of voting.

Voting on the phone also gives people possibility to vote even on the second round, and after candidacies change. Changing candidacies makes valid postal votes void, and thus, gives the keys to people present.

If we had known Piero was a candidate as President, we would not even have accepted to send the votes in his name. How could a presidential candidate, who only days before announced in italian forum, that he will in no circumstances be a candidate, be the one receiving votes letters which also most probably included votes against him. This without a doubt is against any electoral law I know (maybe in France it's different).

No difference at all ethically, and in terms of positive democracy?

Lorenzo wrote:
The Catania Board didn’t perform so poorly and finally collapse because its component members were arch-devils mustered from the legions of hell, as one might think reading some posts over this forum, but rather because it was a loose electoral coalition of persons with strong personalities and totally different ideas, striving for diverging goals.

Doesn't this give you the feeling that they were for this reason incapable of acting as board members? To me it does. I have been part and also seen various boards and I can assure you that a good working board is not about different opinions, it's about the capability for discussion, understanding, compromises, social skills and seeing things from many angles. It is painfully obvious that these qualities lack from the majority of table football power brokers.

p.s. Lorenzo, please read and comment Zinga's post on a couple of pages ago (15?). Do you share that view about the italian forum. I know the reality, but I'd like to have your answer.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:11 am

Vesa... you have me overwhelmed! drunken
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:15 am

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:p.s. I'm still waiting your answer to why your name was under the circular0006 and why you didn't keep that promise, Piero? If you answer that we can see if you can be trusted. (Same in fact for De Francesco and Koutroumanos, who's names were also there making a promise.)

p.s.2. I wouldnt' have had to write this here, but you promised me an explanation by email for tonight about your actions. But you haven't sent it so I will just have to continue asking more questions here.

Vesa,

Piero just announced that Vincent denied him access to this forum.

Lorenzo, I posted that question maybe a month ago. There was enough time. And he has my mail address.

In any case, I'm not interested anymore about the sandbox that is FISTF. It insults my intelligence (it would insult any normal persons intelligence), and I'll rather spend my sandbox energy to a more positive group of people, namely children.

"I don't play with you, anymore." "I'll play with them." This is FISTF, a global federation. Give me a bloody break (or even a kitkat Wink )

I still expect answers and explanations for many things. After those I'll see my position as part of FISTF.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:32 am

Lorenzo wrote:
Luis Filipe Horta wrote:If I understood well, Piero announced in the italian forum that it was himself who cancelled the access and he will open an oficial FISTF forum soon.

I quot his post: "Solo per vostra conoscenza, dopo la risposta sul Forum Internazionale, in cui no ho insultato nessuno, mi è stato cancellato l'accesso...

In settimana presenteremo in nuovo Forum FISTF fatto e gestito sul modello di Subbuteoforum."

No way Louis... the right translation is that Piero was banned by Vincent, and declared that a new official FISTF forum is in the works.
Lies, lies lies
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:46 am

Admin wrote:Lies, lies lies

That's the right translation; I have no idea if Piero's statement was right.

Did you ban him or not Question
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:47 am

The votes for the President underline my problem with this democracy (not about who is elected):

15 countries had officially announced to take part.

1st round

Capponi 7
Kouvonkorpi 4
Jurik 2

Total: 13 votes (2 missing)

2nd round

Capponi 6
Kouvonkorpi 3

Total: 9 (6 missing!)

My experience from Finlands presidential elections also tells that the 2nd round with 2 candidates is usually even more important for voters, because they have a clear opinion. In this case the democratic elections lost 4 votes between the rounds, and 2 completely (which? Finland and Austria sent their votes on the same day, and Greece was not allowed to vote, so it is interesting). But as I was given the information (wrong maybe) that the finnish and austrian votes did not arrive, and Wales did not vote, then who had the vote to make a total of 13?

Anyone with basic mathematical skills can count that all nation's did not get an equal chance to vote, and that the election result could well be completely other with a proper procedure. Markus in theory could have also passed me.

With these numbers and questions, it has crossed my mind, that I will ask Piero if he will confirm he had the majority's support by making a new vote for the 2nd round. Just to know the truth, and see if the procedure supported democracy. I'm not interested in the presidency anymore, so Piero can't be afraid of losing his place. Just a thought...

Another interesting part of the Statutes is this:

12-4 The President, the Vice-Presidents and the General Secretary shall all be members of different National Associations, and all of them shall have different citizenships.
12-5 However, the Board of Director may, in exceptional circumstances, authorize a maximum of two of its members to depart from the rule of Article 12-4.


12-4 Refers to Capponi and De Francesco.
12-5 Which were the exceptional circumstances that made this possible, but at the same time Chris Aggelinas' candidacy was not taken into account because Koutroumanos was in the board? I want to have something black on white about this, written by an impartial person at the congress.

By the way, thanks to all for the positive comments and support I received before and after the elections. I hope to see some of you in Helsinki in May.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:48 am

Lorenzo wrote:
Admin wrote:Lies, lies lies

That's the right translation; I have no idea if Piero's statement was right.

Did you ban him or not Question
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:52 am

It's easy to count Capponi got 6 votes out of 16 countries, which means a minority.

Considering the votes of Gibraltar and Argentina don' tcount, it makes 4.

Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:11 am

Admin wrote:Considering the votes of Gibraltar and Argentina don' tcount, it makes 4.
which are (not difficult to say):
Spain
Italy
France (good friend Garnier)
??? (if Greece didn't vote...)

At the most one loyal vote is enough to make a president. It's more than a joke.

We complained about Catania and we can be happy. We found worse than Catania!
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:38 am

To make clear what really happened. It's just another proof Italy and Spain want to dictate everyone how elections should be. Despite there are 16 voting nations, only 2 nations have the right to decide. After seeings the 3 following e-mails, you can understand it was impossible to have elections... I also believe the only reason why they wanted a compromise is that they knew they might not win the "normal" elections.

Friday at 1.12 pm

Board Proposal - URGENT REPLY NEEDED!!!

We need a reply to the mail below (with the approval or not to the proposal) before 18:00 of today (CET Madrid). IT’S VERY URGENT

Dear all,

After the last events, we send you our proposal of FISTF Board, reached by consensus.

President: Markus Jurik

Secretary: Vesa Kouvonkorpi

Communication: Vincent Coppenolle

Sports: Stefano de Francesco

Marketing: Piero Capponi

Finance: José Carlos Guerrero

Disciplinary Committee: Janus Gersie

We think this is the best solution possible, reaching a social peace very needed in this moment.

If you are agree with this board, please, send us your approval within today. If not, we will go on with alternative solutions.

Kind regards.

FISCT & AFM

Enrico Corso, Stefano de Francesco, Piero Capponi, José Carlos Guerrero

Friday at 1.52 pm

Well, first of all, the position of Belgium is that we would prefer another candidate to be sports director because last year, Stefano De Francesco was really a big problem.

Because:
- he always takes decisions alone
- doesn’t respect the voice of the countries
- doesn’t respect the other people of the sports department
- doesn’t understand the needs of the players, clubs and associations outside ITALY.

At personal level, I can say I’m ready to many things for the “compromise” but Stefano has to learn his mistakes, he has to speaks with much less arrogance and he has to listen to the ideas of the other people.

I think if he is elected, he should give a monthly report to all associations proving he has changed.

We hope there will be a vote and there will be another candidate for the job of sports director.

Regards,

Vincent

Friday at 2.14 pm

Dear all:

This reply from Vincent closes the option of consensus, it’s clear than the personnel problems are more important than the FISTF. It’s a shame.

See some of you tomorrow.

Saludos.

AFM

Piero Capponi / José Carlos Guerrero
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:11 pm

After reading through this entertaining topic i must say that i'd rather have a group hug with a swarm of jellyfishes than be part of FISTF in it's current form. Nicely done Italy!
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  georgy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:59 pm

I also feel pity that people such as Vesa are not in the new Board.
When I first read about him being a candidate, I thought that there was some light at the end of the tunnel.
I hope the Finns will not be affected by what happened this weekend, and will not isolate themselves, even though I will not be surprised if they do.
I was hoping that the new Board will have fresh people with new ideas, who do not belong in any blocks.
I also find problematic the fact that the new president does not speak English well. He HAS to communicate with us (either here or in the new forum that he mentioned), and from what I see here most of his posts are incomprehensible because of the translator.


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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:30 am

Admin wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:
Admin wrote:Lies, lies lies

That's the right translation; I have no idea if Piero's statement was right.

Did you ban him or not Question
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If this is so, then it's nice to have a president who starts by lying, after he has threatened with court.

And of course we should remember that during the last days before the congress Piero "threatened" that he will not come to Madrid congress at all.


Last edited by von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:38 am

Thanks George for the positive words! I hope to see you in Finland soon.

georgy wrote:
I hope the Finns will not be affected by what happened this weekend, and will not isolate themselves, even though I will not be surprised if they do.

I would not say we will isolate ourselves. We are already quite isolated.

I will not support us being a paying member of FISTF. But we have about 30 players and all of them can make their own decisions, and we discuss and vote for these things.

georgy wrote:I was hoping that the new Board will have fresh people with new ideas, who do not belong in any blocks.

So did I.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:46 am

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  panagios on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:17 am

von K. wrote:Thanks George for the positive words! I hope to see you in Finland soon.

georgy wrote:
I hope the Finns will not be affected by what happened this weekend, and will not isolate themselves, even though I will not be surprised if they do.

I would not say we will isolate ourselves. We are already quite isolated.

I will not support us being a paying member of FISTF. But we have about 30 players and all of them can make their own decisions, and we discuss and vote for these things.

georgy wrote:I was hoping that the new Board will have fresh people with new ideas, who do not belong in any blocks.

So did I.


All of a sudden you are not the "negotiator" anymore? the cool head? the "non-offender"?
I feel let down

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  MassiveAttack on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:59 pm

I don't understand, really: I don't understand ... and all this for the "pupazzetti" (the little plastic man) ?
Bah!!! ...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:33 pm

Kaitsu wrote:
Beware Kaitsu, I saw your picture and I thought it was funny. I posted it on Facebook and Capponi threated me to go to court!

In Belgium, we say this kind of humor is bad only when you feel you did something wrong. And Capponi knows he must feel wrong after having betrayed, manipulated, lied and cheated!

Anyway, I like this picture Razz
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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