EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  kechris on Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:43 pm

Vincent you wrote that today FISTF die.
Sorry but FISTF died when you open the door to fake people who sent you blackmails. Three years before.
Now we pay one more time the wrongs.
Thossa i wrote before few days that Collins change side. You asked how i understand this. Because i have eyes, ears, and my mind open. I had practise and experience in Greece.
Dromer you said that i am not straight. Can you explain me why England changed opinion? Can you explain me why Garnier sent a prive e-mail that he will retire as candidate general secretary and finally he didn't retire?
Ok. Do you know who will be the next communication director? I KNOW.
Do you remember that i made bet for split? I insist in my bet.
Do you remember that i asked Guilio who gave him informations?
He said yesterday that he will not go in Madrid but he went.
Markus did the same mistake with Heinz. He make an effort to keep on line with Italy. He paid his mistake.
THE ELECTIONS WAS TYPICAL CORRECT. BUT NO FAIR.
WE ARE RESPONSIBLE BECAUSE THE SAME DAY 3 PERSONS BE CANDIDATE PRESIDENTS.
The one change side -his favourite hobby- and you cann't solve a simple problem. 6 POSITIONS 6 PERSONS 7 COUNTRIES-VOTES.

You must accept the result with respect for the winner. We knew that the other side play strong but we select soft players for the game.
Goodnight and good luck.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:55 pm

My whole respect for Kostas Kechris...
He was telling us the future, but we...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:27 pm

kechris wrote:WE ARE RESPONSIBLE BECAUSE THE SAME DAY 3 PERSONS BE CANDIDATE PRESIDENTS.
Capponi was not candidate but he became president
De Francesco was not candidate but he became sports director
...
Chris aggelinas wanted to be candidate for sports director and the answer was "sorry but you ask too late".

What a joke!
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Thossa on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:33 pm

Mmmh, first they electioned Marketing and later Sports. And because already a greek was elected in Marketing Chris wasn´t allowed to candidate for Sports. Well organised

Laughing
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  kechris on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:46 pm

kechris wrote: you cann't solve a simple problem. 6 POSITIONS 6 PERSONS 7 COUNTRIES-VOTES.

if you count the votes you would understand why i asked by you Vincent don't be candidate.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:57 pm

Thossa wrote:Mmmh, first they electioned Marketing and later Sports. And because already a greek was elected in Marketing Chris wasn´t allowed to candidate for Sports. Well organised

Laughing

I always thought, Piero is Italian...
So that would mean, that Stefano would not have been allowed to be elected...

But may be I'm wrong.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Thossa on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:04 pm

For me it is regardless, whether one or two BoD-members comes from one country. In the past it wasn´t a problem and FISTF already exists with three italians or three belgians in one board.

As far as I know, Piero is a born italian and now living in Spain. Probably he has both nationalities because of his marriage with his spanish wife.

I am sure, the lawyers in Madrid checked his passport anyway Wink

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Thossa wrote:Mmmh, first they electioned Marketing and later Sports. And because already a greek was elected in Marketing Chris wasn´t allowed to candidate for Sports. Well organised

Laughing

I always thought, Piero is Italian...
So that would mean, that Stefano would not have been allowed to be elected...

But may be I'm wrong.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:07 pm

Thossa wrote:For me it is regardless, whether one or two BoD-members comes from one country. In the past it wasn´t a problem and FISTF already exists with three italians or three belgians in one board.

As far as I know, Piero is a born italian and now living in Spain. Probably he has both nationalities because of his marriage with his spanish wife.

I am sure, the lawyers in Madrid checked his passport anyway Wink

I'm sure they haven't.
For me it would only be a problem if it's true AND the candidature of Aggelinas had been denied because of the same reason...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Robbert on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Admin wrote:I'm off to watch cycling on TV. At least cycling is a sport... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

With a GREAT DUTCH Winner !!!!!! Very Happy
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Thossa on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:15 pm

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Thossa wrote:For me it is regardless, whether one or two BoD-members comes from one country. In the past it wasn´t a problem and FISTF already exists with three italians or three belgians in one board.

As far as I know, Piero is a born italian and now living in Spain. Probably he has both nationalities because of his marriage with his spanish wife.

I am sure, the lawyers in Madrid checked his passport anyway Wink

I'm sure they haven't.
For me it would only be a problem if it's true AND the candidature of Aggelinas had been denied because of the same reason...

OK. Point seeded.

And the EGM isn´t ended right now. I think, they will meet a little bit longer until tomorrow and they have time enough to check it out in Madrid again.

At least the missing job as communication director has to be discussed as well.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:37 pm

Robbert wrote:
Admin wrote:I'm off to watch cycling on TV. At least cycling is a sport... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

With a GREAT DUTCH Winner !!!!!! Very Happy
Very Happy Not a great race but a great winner!
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  drastis on Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:12 pm

kechris wrote:THE ELECTIONS WAS TYPICAL CORRECT. BUT NO FAIR.

The election was not typically correct because Garnier and Collins represented their countries being at the same time members of the BoD. In the Statutes is explicitiy written that members of the BoD cannot be delegates of their nations. I am not sure also if the rule in the statutes which says that no delegate can represent more than one country was respected.

Anyway, only for the history of the matter, it would be interesting to know who represented which country and what was the order of voting. Also, it would be useful to know why Aggelinas was not allowed to be a candidate, while at the same time Capponi was allowed to go for President.

In any case I am curious how this group of four people who destroyed FISTF during last year will be able to restore things, especially after this lobbying campaing with no principles which disappointed even those who had kept a bit of hope that corruption is not complete.


Last edited by drastis on Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  alex popoff on Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:23 pm

Depending the tour of vote, the total amount of votes passes from 13 to 9 ... and 10 !!!
how is it possible ???
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Thossa on Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:36 pm

So they have to vote again in a correct way or what?

They are still there and can repair mistakes.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  maxischn on Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:48 pm

as if they would Very Happy
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:27 am

Ehm… I would like to understand the rationale for all this uproar.

Do you object to the procedural routines followed, to the persons elected, to the fact that Piero switched candidatures, or to a mix of them all?

Please believe that this is no ironical question. I am probably missing something, and I would really grasp the point.

Funny thing is, over the Italian forum everybody is as unquestioningly favourable to the new Board as everybody seems to be unquestioningly adverse over here… the herd instincts work the same way all over the world What a Face
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:50 am

Lorenzo wrote:Ehm… I would like to understand the rationale for all this uproar.

Do you object to the procedural routines followed, to the persons elected, to the fact that Piero switched candidatures, or to a mix of them all?

Please believe that this is no ironical question. I am probably missing something, and I would really grasp the point.

Funny thing is, over the Italian forum everybody is as unquestioningly favourable to the new Board as everybody seems to be unquestioningly adverse over here… the herd instincts work the same way all over the world What a Face

Taking it as no ironical question, I try to give you an answer...

Obviously three out of seven votes have more or less been 'bought' by the 'new' Board.
This 'new' Board consists of four out of six (five) persons which were responsible for the worst year ever in FISTF history.
One of the five elected persons was declared guilty by court of (to say the least) undemocratic behaviour in his home country.
The sequence of elections was fixed in a way that a candidature of Aggelinas for Sports Director was not possible.
In case Piero has still an Italian passport, Stefano's candidature for the Sports Director was invalid by the statutes.
Greece had no vote, Finlands letter did not arrive, official legitimations were not shown from the absent but voting countries.
England and France voted with members of the Board, which is not allowed according to the statutes.

This list is not complete for sure, but it contains what came to my mind immediately when you were asking.
I think it shows what most people from this forum do not like and what you may have missed.
All these points are the seed for a maximum of mistrust...

To add a personal point of view: I made my eye-to-eye experience with parts of the new Board and I have to say I was shocked how false people can act...

You may transport this to the italian forum and I'm ready to answer upcoming questions from there at any time...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  zinga on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Lorenzo wrote:Ehm… I would like to understand the rationale for all this uproar.

Do you object to the procedural routines followed, to the persons elected, to the fact that Piero switched candidatures, or to a mix of them all?
I cannot doom the selected BoD, as for the unity I am willing to let Piero to present his agenda before critisizing it. However, I just have to say that the whole procedure of EGM was nothing more than a joke. It seemed that the main motivation for Italy was only to get Stefano elected. If he is the only possible candidate from italy, then I do not understand why Italy says that they are the greatest TF country in the world. OK, Italy got what they wanted and now I have no other options than believe that Stefano tries to do his job this time. Last time he did nothing else than destroy the sports of the FISTF.

I think that the main motivation of the EGM was to get rid of the cancer of FISTF, meaning Catania and Koutromoney. Thus, I do not understand the "victory" that we are now witnessing.

Last time we even had the poor agenda with A's, B's and C's. This time the two biggest nations of FISTF could not find any candidates in time with agenda. Was it good election tactics from Italy and Spain (professionalism) or just poor politics (amateurs). I, as a president, want to vote for issues not personal politics. This time it was not possible and thus I am sad with the elections. In Friday there were possibilities for consensus. However, Stefano could not step down (personal matters over unity) and propose other canditate from Italy. If I understood corractly, Vincent was ready to step down for the unity, but for Stefano this was not possible. Did I understand wrong?

I have to wait for the minutes of the EGM to understand how the voting procedure went. However, it seems that there was some uncertainties. I asked Piero to confirm if the Finnish votes arrived in time or not. I also asked EGM to decided if I could vote by e-mail or SMS if the mail votes were not received in time. I got no answer, thus assuming that our votes were with Piero. Who were the delegates of England and France (for sure the lawyers knew that the statutes forbids BoD members to be delegates)? With what powers were the votes of Greece denied? Ok, again I must say that these questions are for sure answered in the minutes so lets not worry yet.


Lorenzo wrote:Funny thing is, over the Italian forum everybody is as unquestioningly favourable to the new Board as everybody seems to be unquestioningly adverse over here… the herd instincts work the same way all over the world What a Face
I must say that I follow both forums. I cannot be sure if I have understood correctly, as I use translator to follow Italic discussion, but it seemes that the Italian forum is used to "brainwash" the non-English world of TF. Quotes are used on purpose misleading and issues are twisted just to make others look bad. I am sure that if Vesa could not write good Italian, the message in the Italian forum would be even more midleading.


We, in Finland, will wait for the EGM minutes and Piero's agenda for the BoD. After that we have to asses if we step down from the international scheme and concentrate to out internal well-working circuit. My wish is, that we don't need to do that, but I am a bit afraid. What we basically get from FISTF is the following:
1) The status of GP/IO for Helsinki Open. The tournament has been a great succes last years (you can ask participants from Greece, Italy, Belgium etc.) and I would be sad if the competition dies becouse of FISTF.
2) Participation in WC. We have been in the WC last four years and it is always a good trip.
3) Some random trips to participate in the international tournaments.
These three things are only like 5% of the whole TF activities of Finland. Still important, but we can live without it. I am looking forward to the Piero's agenda for the BoD. Lets see if the pessimism turns into optimism.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:44 pm

Normally the president's agenda shouild be sent BEFORE elections. For me it's clear it's a president without any credibility. He did exactly the same as Catania did last year.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  zinga on Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:36 pm

Admin wrote:Normally the president's agenda shouild be sent BEFORE elections. For me it's clear it's a president without any credibility. He did exactly the same as Catania did last year.
Of course the agenda should be presented before to have a fair election. However, due to the circumstanses I am willing to hear the agenda first and to judge it only after that.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:28 pm

Marcus Tilgner wrote:Taking it as no ironical question, I try to give you an answer...

Obviously three out of seven votes have more or less been 'bought' by the 'new' Board.
This 'new' Board consists of four out of six (five) persons which were responsible for the worst year ever in FISTF history.
One of the five elected persons was declared guilty by court of (to say the least) undemocratic behaviour in his home country.
The sequence of elections was fixed in a way that a candidature of Aggelinas for Sports Director was not possible.
In case Piero has still an Italian passport, Stefano's candidature for the Sports Director was invalid by the statutes.
Greece had no vote, Finlands letter did not arrive, official legitimations were not shown from the absent but voting countries.
England and France voted with members of the Board, which is not allowed according to the statutes.

This list is not complete for sure, but it contains what came to my mind immediately when you were asking.
I think it shows what most people from this forum do not like and what you may have missed.
All these points are the seed for a maximum of mistrust...

To add a personal point of view: I made my eye-to-eye experience with parts of the new Board and I have to say I was shocked how false people can act...

You may transport this to the italian forum and I'm ready to answer upcoming questions from there at any time...

Markus, I lack the time to translate questions and answers to-and-from the Italian forum. You should post your complaints over the Italian forum yourself. You shall be a welcome guest. Here is the proper folder to do so:

http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=16325&st=525&gopid=265970&#entry265970

You’ll have to register to access this specific folder.

As to your cahier des doléances (no pun intended), I shall limit myself to a few player’s remarks, with no pretense of competence or comprehensiveness.

First off, I am unqualified to assess procedural matters. Your comments will be probably countered by Giufaz, who was there and already pledged everything was done according to the law and the statutes, and in a constructive mood. I am not saying it is so. He does.

As to the Board’s composition, here is my guess over the overall course of events.

The whole electoral race was a tragicomedy where nobody could say who candidated for what post and how one should vote till the very last moment. The existing statutes are totally inadequate to manage a serious electoral competition, we are an unprofessional game-sport and everything took place on the background of the dying and inept Catania Board.

That’s exactly why the Italian leadership sincerely and truthfully looked for a settlement with Vincent behind the scenes, allowing for a sensible selection of mutually acceptable candidates.

He refused the agreement, perhaps in the belief to win the elections anyway, and instead lost them soundly. Lacking a compromise, the Italians strove to prevail by the customary means of demagogic plutocracy, er, democracy silent , including underhand deals. I ask myself whether the Belgian and German delegates were above similar means, or if they were simply outclassed at their own crooked table Basketball

That’s how you got Garnier and Kutroumanos in the Board.

For sure the fact that Stefano and Piero withdrew their candidatures on Friday and then re-submitted them the next day, as well as Piero’s switch from marketing director to chairman, are no archetypes of electoral transparency, yet in the general casino (an Italian word addressing the sheer chaos that can be found in low-grade brothels) they don’t appear too conspicuous, either. If Vincent was enthusiastic about voting by phone, Piero is allowed to switch his vocation overnight jocolor

In concern to your remark that four out of six members of the disgraced, ruinous and cataclysmic Catania Board are still there… I already told you why somebody is on board. However, it is my impression that you pay too much attention to individuals, and too little to the wide-ranging trends underlying the events.

The Catania Board didn’t perform so poorly and finally collapse because its component members were arch-devils mustered from the legions of hell, as one might think reading some posts over this forum, but rather because it was a loose electoral coalition of persons with strong personalities and totally different ideas, striving for diverging goals.

The new Board has a stout backbone in the Capponi-De Francesco team, who are seious-minded guys, share the same ideas, the same passion for tablesoccer, and speak the same language. They might well be able to inspire the Board and embark on a coherent, energetic activity. We shall see.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:21 pm

As a side note, I am told that the German and Belgian delegates were cooperative, that the Belgian lawyer assisted Giufaz during the proceedings and guarantees about their legality, that Janus declared that Germany shall support the new Board, and that Fred Vulpes just accepted to be a member.

Piero posted a shortened version of the Board’s agenda over the Italian forum. The Champions League 2011 won’t take place in Greece any longer, and shall be assigned preferably to a North European country. From now on, an effort will be made to alternate the World Championship and the Champions League between Northern and Southern Europe.

Let’s hope this is the beginning of a new dawn for table soccer.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:56 pm

I write this intervention, my first and last as president in this forum, one year after Congress Frankfurth.

I will not respond to insults on Vincent Copenolle , I'll do in court. (Incidentally, remains formally Coppenolle Vice President to the communication because it has not sent his formal resignation.)

I will give my version of what has taken place in recent days, especially from the point at which Silvio Catania has decided not to Madrid.

Last Thursday the AFM FISCT and have submitted a formal proposal to Finland, Belgium, Austria and Germany for a compromise solution.

The proposed board was formed by Jurik, Vesa, Copenolle, Capponi, De Francesco and Guerrero. We expected the response and Coppenolle Friday afternoon said no to this solution. His problem was still Francesco. Vesa, at 3 am on Friday also said no, then your idea was that Coppenolle and De Francesco did not have to be on the board. Markus Jurik agreed with this solution.

On Friday night at a restaurant in Madrid and after talking with my fellow board Spanish, I decided to run for president. Sorry for Markus, who has been "betrayed" but it also wanted to work with De Francesco as posted in this forum these days.

Yet, and has been a year, nobody wanted intende our future, the future of the FISTF, the future of Subbuteo, double thread is tied with Italy.

Without Italy, in 2011, does not exist and not exist FISTF the Subbuteo. Italy, in a demonstration of consistency and presented as an option attached to the board as long as only De Francesco, because it is their role in the Italian movement, the representation of Italy at international level.

Italy has 1099 players and only one candidate. Other countries should learn. The refusal to work with is the refusal to find a global solution.

The absence of candidates in Congress (not present Coppenolle, Busing, Aggelinas, Vulpes, Vesa, Jurik, Drazinakis) did not allow the search for other solutions.

"Politics is the art of the possible," said Winston Churchill (who was not Spanish ...).

At the conference, thanks to the extraordinary work of Giulio Fazio, Laurent Garnier, Janus Gersie, Titi Giuax (Titi chapeau by as you defend your ideas and your data), Jose Antonio Pezzi (the lawyer who represented Belgium) and Alan Collins, we have allowed everyone vote, procedura very "unusual" but looking for the maximum democracy.

In this regard, and to avoid problems, to Greece has decided not to insist on their intention to vote.

The results will know her and the reactions of the alleged "democrats" in this forum or on facebook too. I will elsewhere.

I will not explain here the work yesterday and today, also with Giaux and Gersie, we have implemented.

Points one and two are back to normal (Calendar, results and ranking) and contact with each federation to hear that their problems are. The first country to which I write is Scotland, which has chosen not to become a member of the FISTF this year.

I thank Fred Vulpes for agreeing to be Vice President of this board. With Janus agree that is a perfect solution and ensure complete transparency for all the accounts of our federation are in order and under his control.

Work also thank all the delegates arrived in Madrid who have managed, despite an initial atmosphere of tension, carry out the work.

As I wrote the first non I will speak more on this forum. This week will launch a FISTF Forum moderators to stimulate debate and reject the insult. There will my face and ideas available to all, as I always have in recent years.

By the way, is NOT true that Silvio Catania has been declared "persona non grata" in Congress. Not the style FISTF delegates.

Sorry for my english. I continue tu study.

Piero






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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  kechris on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:11 pm

pierocapponi wrote:

In this regard, and to avoid problems, to Greece has decided not to insist on their intention to vote.


PIERO PLEASE KEEP YOUR COMMENT IN YOUR MIND FOR THE FUTURE.
GREECE DIDN'T DECIDED NO VOTING.
KOUTROUMANOS AND YOU DECIDED.
ARGENTINA AND GIBRALTAR NO DECIDED TO VOTE.
YOU AND PAPAKONSTA... PAID THE FEE. YOU BOUGHT VOTES.
YOU WIN THE "GAME" BUT ALL THE CROWD ARE AGAINST YOU FOR UNFAIR GAME.

P.S 1. YOU DIDN'T RESPECT THE STATUTES AND YOU ELECTED WITH ITALIAN PASSPORT AS SPANISH PERSON. SHAME.
YOU MUST APOLOGIE NO FOR YOUR ENGLISH BUT FOR YOUR BEHAVIOUR.

PS.2 YOU SAID THAT COPPENOLE NO RETIRED OFFICIALLY. CAN YOU SHOW ME THE OFFICIAL RETIRE OF GREECE VOTING

PS3. CAN YOU SHOW ME THE OFFICIAL YOUR RETIRE AS MARKETING DIRECTOR AND DE FRANCESCO'S AS SPORT DIRECTOR THE FRIDAY EVENING?
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  kechris on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:25 pm

pierocapponi wrote: Markus Jurik agreed with this solution.

On Friday night at a restaurant in Madrid and after talking with my fellow board Spanish, I decided to run for president. Sorry for Markus, who has been "betrayed" but it also wanted to work with De Francesco as posted in this forum these days.


How feel now Marcus? You change side. You left sheeps you went to wolves and after you been a meal (steak tartare).
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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