EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Thossa on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:09 pm

Kaitsu wrote:
Stefano De Francesco wrote:The forum of subbuteonews will be the official forum of FISTF.
scratch

No matter what Suspect
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:14 pm

Thossa wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:
Stefano De Francesco wrote:The forum of subbuteonews will be the official forum of FISTF.
scratch

No matter what Suspect

You know these guys get me bit confused..

Subbuteonews wrote:Welcome to the SubbuteoNews Forum. The independent website about the Subbuteo & table football world.
Stefano De Francesco wrote:We are pleased to announce that the site www.subbuteonews.com has been reactivated and that, henceforth, will be the official voice of the sport department and all his staff.
Stefano De Francesco wrote:The forum of subbuteonews will be the official forum of FISTF.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:18 pm

Communication as before, then, by... the marketing director (sorry, but the bolded parts are a good fun). Though I believe the problem is english and that is a big problem...

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:33 am

drastis wrote:
On top of mistreating the people who protest, do we have to sue them also?? Legal is not always ethical, this everyone knows. Italy and friends found a way to prevail, and they DO rejoice about it, is it necessary to convince us that everything was done according to morality rules? Or do you think that people who have been deceived must shut up?

Right on the nose, George. Rubbing questionable salt into wounds of people who feel hard done by gets me protesting even louder. Sorry for that.

I've also heard Giufaz supported the Greece vote of Koutroumanos. I'd like to know the truth, but it will be in the eyes of the readers, because of the lack of impartial secretary or lawyer. I'm also disappointed that Giufaz left the forum before answering my questions from maybe monday...

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:36 am

Ok, more serious note.

Heinz Eder wrote:
I know I won't win many friends with those words but honestly I don't care. Cool

I like this attitude. Reminds me of my own "political suicides" (no offense to anyone...).

Sorry, did not hit the serious note yet. Try again...

Heinz Eder wrote:We should take a general decision.
Are we against last-minute candidates or not?

I said this before Madrid and say it again. In no democratic election with postal votes is this possible. It means people/members don't have equal voting rights. It would be an offense by the finnish law, to my knowledge (can check if someone wants me to). At least it is not positive democracy, and especially harmful it is for a game needing unity and good will, as we saw.

Heinz Eder wrote:
I know that there are some reasons to be against a Sports Director De Francesco, but nobody mentioned even one of them. The only reason is that he was last-minute candidate and Italy wants to dictate FISTF, come on, don't you have better arguments?

There have been clear and good enough arguments here. You have probably missed them. Vincent gave some. I give you another couple (not counting what happened in Madrid, and you get more when you read forward):

- In Rain he in a duet with Catania announced on Sunday morning shouting that the team competition will be cancelled. The reason: His idea of the 6 player teams was not accepted because World Cup is the last competition of the season. After whivh he said that it's September, so it's new season. So, if I understand correctly, the sports director thinks there can be seasons without a World Cup, and seasons that begin and end with a World Cup
- In circular0006 he along with Capponi, Koutroumanos and other BoD members PROMISED elections in Rain, and signed it by their names. It was sent in the name of "provisional board". In Rain De Francesco threatened Italy will leave FISTF in case of elections. Capponi wasn't even present at the elections he had promised as a BoD member

I can not persons who don't keep their word or use blackmail (how else to interpret those?) to reach their own purposes. I have decided long ago that in the world of today, I don't want to support this kind of behaviour or people who do things like this.

Heinz Eder wrote:
Did people maybe think one moment about it that the lack of communication between different people caused the confusion and the result in Madrid?

Heinz Eder wrote:
Everybody must be heard with the same voice. The nationality of somebody with a good idea has to be totally meaningless, that's something some people in Italy may have to understand.

Yes, but if there is no will to communicate, it is very difficult. I saw this in the small amount of time I spent in the Council. And I saw this when De Francesco only tried to ridicule me and my "small tf country" when I argumentated against his beliefs logically in the italian forum, and in the Council. Then this January he writes (arrogantly) "this is the first time I've taken you seriously", and asks me something. Then he also expects an answer inside one day, as if I have to live by his moods.

De Francesco and Capponi have shown that they don't think everybody must be heard with the same voice. If the voice is from Finland, it's not important, no matter what it says. Especially when it is critical. I wouldn't want to spend time on it, but if you want to, Heinz, I can dig out those conversations and comments from the italian forum for you.

I really think most people would have a better view of the whole if they followed both forums without too much prejudice (I've judged afterwards). In this way, Heinz, you are not well informed. I am, and this was what I wanted to change with many different means.

Admin wrote:
De Francesco's sports department is announced already with 5 members and 3 of them are Italians (!!!) so I really see there a will to have a "much too focused on Italy" FISTF Board.

I spoke with him the thursday before Madrid. He wanted my support for him to be sports director, after I said he is not positive for that role for the unity. He said he will have a commission with persons from these nations mentioned as part of it: Spain, Scotland, Greece, Austria (if I remember correctly) and Belgium (but he gave me a belgian name that is out of the question because he hates him because of envy of the progress of Italy when Belgium has gone down in numbers at the same time).

He also said that it wouldn't make sense to put another italian as candidate for the sports director, because he would anyway be giving the decisions for this person. So why are those italian there now?

If this is true information about his department, it's another reason for me not to trust him, Heinz. I tried, but I can't anymore. Sorry.

Heinz Eder wrote:
Everybody must be heard with the same voice. The nationality of somebody with a good idea has to be totally meaningless, that's something some people in Italy may have to understand.

Admin wrote:
Italy is lucky enough to have a great domestic circuit and for many reasons, they don't really need FISTF. When players have the chance to play tournaments every week intheir own country, they should tell nations with less than 50 players how to run the game. the problem with Italy is a kind of "arrogance" that they don't understand. I agree they have more players and clubs than the other big nations such as Greece or Belgium but at the same time, they should understand they are extremely lucky to have material sold in the shops (thanks to italian distributors who haven't done much to do the same in other countries), to have had the impact of "Subbuteo La Legenda" in the book shops, to live in a country where football is extremely popular,... If they can't understand that other nations have their own problems, it's very sad.

I think there is nobody who can say he understands the problems of all countries. Remember Vincent, we also didn't understand all problems the right way every time.
The problem is that the italians only know their situation and don't know the reasons why others are in a different situation, that's totally right.

You are wrong, Heinz. I have tried to explain on numerous occasions in the italian forum, that there are so many huge cultural differences that play part in this. Starting from people's social environment, football's role in the society and the effect of the Parodi series in the 1980's when many players were growing up. For us finns the Stiga icehockey game is the same as Subbuteo for italians. Everyone knows how to play it, everyone has played it growing up or seen it, and many adults (kids of course, too) love to play it when they see it. It's also the biggest reason Sweden, normally a country interested in games, has almost no tf activity at all. Then there is the climate, the distances between cities and players. And what about Australia or others. And how could a very small country be compared to a huge country? Impossible with only numbers.

Did any of this (just some examples of reasons to consider instead of blaming lazy or incompetent people) get any understanding. No. I was just a "lot writing, less doing" (definition by De Francesco aimed to ridicule my arguments) person who didn't work for tf in my country, like the italians worked in Italy. Would it have been the positive attitude, you would have wanted to see when answering to why your country is not as big as Italy, Heinz? It's the very sad reality, although certainly not the view of all italians.

And still I saw the chance to change things before Madrid happened. Evidently I was wrong.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  dromer on Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:27 am

Is subbuteonews.com run by the same people who ran it till februari 2010?
I remember it as an offensive and badly written website. Was Capponi the man behind all that?

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:39 am

dromer wrote:Is subbuteonews.com run by the same people who ran it till februari 2010?
I remember it as an offensive and badly written website. Was Capponi the man behind all that?
Piero Capponi owns the domain subbuteonews.com so yes, he's the man in charge.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Thossa on Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:40 am

dromer wrote:Is subbuteonews.com run by the same people who ran it till februari 2010?
I remember it as an offensive and badly written website. Was Capponi the man behind all that?

The former owner was Christos Archimandritis from Greece, but I don´t know exactly how long he had run the site.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:49 am

Thossa wrote:
dromer wrote:Is subbuteonews.com run by the same people who ran it till februari 2010?
I remember it as an offensive and badly written website. Was Capponi the man behind all that?

The former owner was Christos Archimandritis from Greece, but I don´t know exactly how long he had run the site.
WHOIS search results for: SUBBUTEONEWS.COM

Registrant:
Piero Capponi

Paseo de la Castellana 121
Madrid, Madrid 28046
Spain

Registered through: Sr Dominio
Domain Name: SUBBUTEONEWS.COM
Created on: 06-Nov-06
Expires on: 06-Nov-11
Last Updated on: 22-Nov-10

Administrative Contact:
Capponi, Piero
kraciboy@gmail.com
Paseo de la Castellana 121
Madrid, Madrid 28046
Spain
+34.610507632

Technical Contact:
Capponi, Piero
kraciboy@gmail.com
Paseo de la Castellana 121
Madrid, Madrid 28046
Spain
+34.610507632
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  georgy on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:15 pm

Kaitsu I think Thossa is correct.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:23 pm

dromer wrote:Is subbuteonews.com run by the same people who ran it till februari 2010?
I remember it as an offensive and badly written website. Was Capponi the man behind all that?

I think Thossa stated correctly. Piero said last Sunday he personally bought the rights from Archimandritis some months ago.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  dromer on Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:40 pm

Let's hope so!
it was the most terrible website ever about subbuteo, the language used was below zero.
we'll see how it turns out now.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:31 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:
dromer wrote:Is subbuteonews.com run by the same people who ran it till februari 2010?
I remember it as an offensive and badly written website. Was Capponi the man behind all that?

I think Thossa stated correctly. Piero said last Sunday he personally bought the rights from Archimandritis some months ago.

Janus
Okey, the WHOIS might show when the domain has been registered and current owner. I won't pay money to get the full history as i don't have that much interest about it Wink
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  zinga on Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:07 pm

I just went through the EGM minutes. It seems that England and France voted by post thus answering to argument saying that Alan and Laurent were delegates against statutes.

It is a shame for FISTF that the president is elected with 6 votes out of 16. It seems that the old Bod could not organize elections properly. Hopely, this new BoD can succeed better than the last one.

I am interested to know what is the truth about the Greece situation. EGM minutes state the following:
  • "Greece is currently awaiting a court decision to validate the elections in the Federation."
  • "It was asked to the two lawyers to study the implications of a court of appeal decision under Greek law because it is not the same effects in France"
  • "the resul wastht documentation provided by the prêtending new President, Kechris, is not sufficient to guaranty he is fully empowered, considering also the opinion of a lawyer produced by Mr. Koutroumanos and the absence of the record of its proxy in public registry in Greece"

I thought that the court decision did arrive some time ago.

In the end, it is a sad situation. FISTF seems to work better now than before the EGM, which raises optimism that everything could go well. On the other hand, the BoD lacks credibility after the EGM. There is still Koutromoney in the BoD, even if everyone accepted before the EGM that he and Catania did nothing else than destroy FISTF. Also there is questions if BoD can listen member nations istead of doing everything in "Italian way". In my opinion the next weeks are critical for BoD concidering the credibility. If they handle the Greek situation well, then there is hope. If they go with "their friend" Leonidas, then the hope is lost.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  drastis on Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:44 pm

zinga wrote:I am interested to know what is the truth about the Greece situation. EGM minutes state the following:
  • "Greece is currently awaiting a court decision to validate the elections in the Federation."
  • "It was asked to the two lawyers to study the implications of a court of appeal decision under Greek law because it is not the same effects in France"
  • "the resul wastht documentation provided by the prêtending new President, Kechris, is not sufficient to guaranty he is fully empowered, considering also the opinion of a lawyer produced by Mr. Koutroumanos and the absence of the record of its proxy in public registry in Greece"

I thought that the court decision did arrive some time ago.

Unfortunately, EGM minutes are full of lies. The facts are:

1. The decision of the Court of Appeals is final and immediately executable since November 2010 when it was issued. The full text of the decision has been sent to former and current FISTF BoD members. No other court decision is awaited.
2. Foreign lawyers CANNOT have any opinion about Greek Courts decisions. The decision is applicable against every third party.
3. PATFAP elections for a new BoD are planned for April 10th. For the time-being the Provisionary BoD is in charge according to law. Kechris was voted President of the Provisionary BoD last month, he is not pretending being anything!!! The only one who has constistently pretending for THREE years is Koutroumanos and every person who is not mentally handicapped should understand this!!!

Of course, mr Capponi and his friends in the BoD can continue Coppenolle's and Catania's unfair and stupid behaviour against Greek players, just to secure some votes offered by Koutroumanos. One thing is certain. Koutroumanos will never have the chance again to fool any other people.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  von K. on Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:39 am

The minutes were a big disappointment. I expected something more exact. For example about the way the order for voting different positions was decided, by whom and what was the argumentation behind it. Voting for marketing before sports seemed very peculiar to me, when we know the importance of these positions (the obvious order would be by importance).

They were also disappointing from the view of the english language, and I never like to see names miswritten, or first names completely forgotten, in official papers.

But the most troubling thing is that, by reading them through only once, I can see clear information that could well be challenged in a court if anyone had the time and interest for such a circus. Starting from using delegates as impartial law experts. If they are delegates they have to be challenged from giving any guiding information about discutable subjects. As delegates their influence or civil profession has no bearing.

Then there are the nationalities, and using the 1994 statutes. The using of Garnier (a candidate who also gave the wrong information) as the person to make postal votes of telephone/mail votes. Why was Finland not given a chance for this although we asked for it from Garnier?

I'll gather the problematic parts with comments here in a few days.

If the votes would have been different makes no difference and is not of importance. I was under the impression that it was very important to avoid controversy by making the congress as transparent as legal as possible. But from the minutes anyone can clearly see that this was not the case.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:35 pm

The meetig minutes are indeed a great source of disappointment (just like Janus stated to the Board). There are also so many mistakes of english and french that it's losing credibility.

The belgian Board will meet tomorrow evening (I will not go to the meeting) and will discuss Belgium's point of view. For sure we are not happy...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:57 pm

you are all unforgivable liars: one block say about a truth and other one block say about another truth ...

I think that after many months there is a ranking, a tournament list, a site where we can talk without injuries (in this moment ...), with a free confront, and without pundits that think are the only truth. (in this moment ...), with a free confront, and without pundits that think to have the only truth.

When you say "(I will not go to the meeting)" you have a great responsability, like when you don't went to Madrid in a real confront with other part in cause.

I think this: when i'm in dance, I dance to the end ... I do not hide behind a keyboard and do not send others to war

When you have a reasons, fight for him, in first person e non in delegation: in Madrid was be a lot of people that put her face without fear of dirty ... for his reasons ... you stay in your site e give to other delegation to fight ... this is good?

I continuos to don't understand ...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  kechris on Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:14 pm

Mr Massive attack i agree with all your post except the first paragraph.

We are not all liars. The people who were not present in Madrid haven't personal view for EGM. We hear and we read comments.

If the people who were present in Madrid know who is liarand who isn't liar.
I believe without checking only mr Gersie's words because i have personal opinion for him.

I believe in new beggining (de francesco's ideas in sport are the same with my ideas) but the elections were not so fair in my eyes. So the new beggining has problems and i ask who is responsible for this.

Thanks for your time.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:40 pm

It's all funny all the time.

I think that after many months there is a ranking, a tournament list,...
All this was ready before the meeting. The only thing De Francesco did was to forward existing files to all associations...

The subbuteonewswebsite was ready for weeks. It was told since september it would be an "independant" website about table football. As a coincidence it becomes on-line and "official" right after the meeting. It's just a good way to manipulate people.

That the italian and spanish associations made blackmail (see other message) is a normal thing for them. They just don't care about democracy... Nobody will blame them for cheating.

Nobody will blame Papakonstantinou for his acts of corruption. It's all normal for you.

Dear italian friends, it's time to understand that not everybody is living in nations run by people lke Berlusconi and that for many people honesty an the respect of fair-play are important values.

Unfortunately, we live in a world were good people are used to lose against cheaters and people who have the privilege to have a lot of money...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:43 pm

If the only preoccupations are the elections mode or the kind of paper used for the votation, or the non-erasable pencil ... we are out of way ...

The FISTF's world had needed a start point: i think, in accord of my vision of sport and organization of sport association, that is a good start, other is only "fried air" like we say in Italy.

Listen me (i'm the last "stupid"): we try to organize this world all togheter, is more simple you can immagine: people talk, talk, talk and again talk but when need to work all togheter is better to write back a keybords.

People in Madrid has talk and people don't gone to Madrid, now can't talk because now is tardi!! there's no time: now, the little time we have, we want use it to rebuild the FISTF!!!

I say we, because i'm part of FISTF, I FEEL to be part of FISTF: i'm not part of Italian delegation but a little part of FISTF !!!
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:48 pm

You can't to say to me this, Vincent, where in your country there is a fight against two regions for a language ... every country have his problems ... I keep my, keep you close your ... I don't think you can compare mr. Berlusconi or mr. Bersani with me, because they are politicians (I think ...) and I'm only a cdt player ...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:00 pm

MassiveAttack wrote:I think that after many months there is a ranking, a tournament list, a site where we can talk without injuries (in this moment ...)
I'm bit outsider, but tbh, that's not a huge achievement. Iirc, ranking was updated by person outside of BoD, tournaments list info has been there for a moment as tournaments are announced previous season (or something like that) and forum like that can be created in 15-30mins or so.

This is not flaming etc, just pointing out that personally i'm still waiting the real achievements...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:36 pm

The personality of the people involved is very important. If tomorrow you have people who have been in jail for organizing a business of prostitutes or drugs or financial fraud and these people say "we want to be in the FISTF Board because we are able to run the business", will you trust them?

I'm sorry but I have a personal problem with people who are unfair and use bad ways to be in a Board.

I really think to create another federation is needed. I just think it's impossible because all the good and honest people are just tired of this circus...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  kechris on Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:53 pm

Vincent you must accept that you lost. You knew the rules you played the game and you lost.
The life continue. You can continue as a simple player or as member of Belgian Federation.

I can understand your feelings but with comments like "berlusconi" nothing will change.
If you really love the game you must give time to new BoD. You can critisize them for their decisions but you must stop talking for elections.

I am sure that maybe you will feel better after few time without pressure. You can think your mistakes and you can make plans for the future.

p.s Mr MASSIVE ATTACK you can understand that for many people the EGM in Madrid was a strange story. You have your opinion and it is acceptable. But many people feel that were victims in a thriller. Only the time will give solutions.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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