EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:27 am

giufaz wrote:Guys, after 25 pages of bla bla bla, insults, recriminations, sentences against Italians, Spanish and southern people, the worst sense of humor full of racism...is it possible no one of you have the courage to say in an explicit way: I'm not racist, I like Italians?
You are the one telling us that we are racists and that we don't like italians. I (nor anybody else) haven't said that we don't like or have any issues with italian people. The people that i have criticized are the ones in FISTF BoD and their nationality doesn't matter. That's why i've keep telling you that this "racism" you are talking about doesn't exist and that's why your threats about legal acts against the people writing bad things about you are air. Your lawyer will tell you the same, if one is even doing anything, which i strongly doubt.

Maybe you should read those 25 pages again with thought and really try to understand what others are writing in here.

You pulled this act with group of friends and maybe it seemed as an good idea and perfect way to get you what you wanted. You were mistaken when you thought that rest of the players from fellow nations would just blindly accept your words and ways to act. Now when you receive hard criticism against you and your friends, you are armless and try to silence us by making empty threats about imaginary racism and such. Can't you see that you have only weaken your credibility among the rest if there were even a bit of credibility in the first place.

Your act of dishonesty has raised an strong idea and option for the rest of us to start new international association of tf and leave you incharge of FISTF without any other nations in it. What do you do with and international association without any other members than yourself in it? You would become "king of nothing".

But now it's time to wake up and get some coffee...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  dromer on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:46 am

@ Giufaz
Why should we say something what is obvious? But ok, here i go. I love Italians, i prefer the female part though! Very Happy (please don't go to court for this insult, i love you to)

About 'even' : you should have used 'also' . By using 'even' you insinuate a lot of other things might be considered not a crime in Belgium.

About election: you can tell it was according the statutes but don't tell it was democratic.

About polemic: these questions and in some cases insults do have a cause. You are even part of the cause: it is normal that people have questions if the independent lawyer seems to vote for a country (this is something that you should have told before it takes away all your credibility even if you did a fair job).


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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Lunatic on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:46 am

Admin wrote:Just try to watch things from the other side. If you were not in Madrid and you were not italian, would you accept the idea that someone who was not candidate and who did blackmail the days before the elections became candidate with 6 votes (!) out of 16, being in a minority?

I have many opinions about Piero Capponi and even if I wrote this many time, I will always remember the world cup in Germany when he was encouraging young players to have an unfair behavior (causing free kicks on purpose every time the opponent was in the shooting zone). That day, I just realized that if it's the way these people use table football to educate their young players, it's totally meaningless to continue to work for his game...

"(causing free kicks on purpose every time the opponent was in the shooting zone)"
Off topic but ..... I was referee during the EC in Mattersburg between Giulianinni and Steve Benett. Steve caused a free kick on purpose, and I give a "back" instead of a free-kick. problem solved !!

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:57 am

Kaitsu wrote: ...I ... haven't said that we don't like or have any issues with italian people.... threats about legal acts against the people writing bad things about you are air. Your lawyer will tell you the same, if one is even doing anything, which i strongly doubt.
...
an strong idea and option for the rest of us to start new international association of tf and leave you incharge of FISTF without any other nations in it. What do you do with and international association without any other members than yourself in it? You would become "king of nothing".

But now it's time to wake up and get some coffee...

Kaitsu, can I remember that you published the worst image in the website? And however I see once again you don't say "I'm not racist", but "I haven't said we are racist"...big difference...
Sorry but I still did'nt find a Finnish lawyer for you...when available you will know directly from him.
However thanks for the clearance to your federation to passing me your data: once ready I will get this chance.
For the rest, you are right, stop dreaming...better you wake up...

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:13 am

giufaz wrote:Kaitsu, can I remember that you published the worst image in the website? And however I see once again you don't say "I'm not racist", but "I haven't said we are racist"...big difference...
Sorry but I still did'nt find a Finnish lawyer for you...when available you will know directly from him.
However thanks for the clearance to your federation to passing me your data: once ready I will get this chance.
For the rest, you are right, stop dreaming...better you wake up...
I wish you a good luck on your crusade sir. I'll be waiting someone to contact me about this, as it would and will make my day if it happens. I will "raise my hat" to you if you really can pull something out of this. If you really think that this image is enough i feel really sorry for you. I also would like to remind you that in the eyes of law i'm innocent until someone has proven me to being guilty for anything and my posts in this forum won't be enough, we both (mainly all) know it. My posts doesn't make me racist no matter how many times you keep telling that and you are not even in the position to demand me to prove anything. You ain't either the one who controls world wide freedom of speach.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:48 am

I'm sorry, that I started that discussion with my post about the poster yesterday. As it seems it is not possible to express an opinion here without starting a big discussion between 3 countries.
I only wanted to point out that this poster in context with the posts here isn't really a good choice in my opinion. There was absolutely no comment additionally to the poster and it maybe would be better not to use the italian flag.
That's all I want to say, normally I have sense for humour, but for me it is not a question of humour, it is a question of context, so I don't know if it is fun or if it is a provocation (and I think many others think the same way) like it was posted here on that forum. The poster in the context with the comments here could easily be interpreted as a provocation, I hope we agree at least on that.

The difference is very small in that case and the same way people should accept that others can feel offended, we should accept it, if people say it shouldn't offend.
Calling somebody racist is a bit too much, I only wanted to point out to respect other people's feelings about that poster, but as it seems that gets more and more lost in that community.

Giufaz, I think we were happy without legal disputes in our community for a long time, if you think it is your profession to sue everybody who is saying something wrong (nearly everything can be interpreted as racism if it is against a country or its people), then I think you are wrong.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:57 am

giufaz wrote:... I tell you the truth: people that wan the elections did it in a fair and clear way. All the votes difficult to verify were from the opposit side, yours, but they were however accepted...
You are now trying to see the bad and the enemy were there was only people having an idea different from yours...you are exchanging your mistakes with unfairness of other people, you are blind in front of conduct of professionals who tried to help democracy mainly in your interest...finally you are insulting me as I didn't manage things in your sole interest and now also the lawyer that you sent to Madrid (fantastic and correct lawyer him too) as he didn't manage enough to have you as winners...

Giulio, I think you are at the edge of missing the point. Your comments make me believe you think we have a split between North and South. I personally never thought like that.
We should have been on the way of a unified FISTF. Your comments convince me some member nations thought (and still think) in the direction "North - South".

The congress wasn't a desaster in views of democratic principles (even a lot of questions are arising now which bad role some participants played) but - and your comments above are a prove - it was a desaster in the perception of how FISTF should be managed.

You as the representative of Malta should have done far more for the unification than just give your vote. That leads to the conclusion Malta was not interested in programs but only in names and "South" or "North". Now you should understand why this congress was vital for FISTF. The congress didn't reach this goal. The danger of split is not banned. We all should have done far more than just electing a new board.

You are free to sue whomever you want. But you have to live - btw until the end of your life - with the fact you were part of a possibly fatal congress. Did you know about your crucial role ? I knew about my role and therefore I am still very disappointed we were not able to unify FISTF at the congress. This is the real desaster.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:07 am

Heinz Eder wrote:I'm sorry, that I started that discussion with my post about the poster yesterday. As it seems it is not possible to express an opinion here without starting a big discussion between 3 countries.
I only wanted to point out that this poster in context with the posts here isn't really a good choice in my opinion. There was absolutely no comment additionally to the poster and it maybe would be better not to use the italian flag.
That's all I want to say, normally I have sense for humour, but for me it is not a question of humour, it is a question of context, so I don't know if it is fun or if it is a provocation (and I think many others think the same way) like it was posted here on that forum. The poster in the context with the comments here could easily be interpreted as a provocation, I hope we agree at least on that.

The difference is very small in that case and the same way people should accept that others can feel offended, we should accept it, if people say it shouldn't offend.
Calling somebody racist is a bit too much, I only wanted to point out to respect other people's feelings about that poster, but as it seems that gets more and more lost in that community.

Giufaz, I think we were happy without legal disputes in our community for a long time, if you think it is your profession to sue everybody who is saying something wrong (nearly everything can be interpreted as racism if it is against a country or its people), then I think you are wrong.
Heinz,
I really appreciate your post.
It is this kind of opinion that I would like to hear from people that posted the image or offences.
For my profesion don't worry: table soccer for me is a game (or a sport) and certainly not a job.
Of course all of us are welcome in expressing our opinions.
My reaction as professional will be limited only to serious cases where maybe somebody passed all the limits. And as you may see also above, I always try to give people a chance to make a step back: I don't thing that going to court is the best solution. But there are cases in which people don't understand and it remain the unique solution.
Best and really thanks for your post

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:18 am

I also want to add something general here.
I know I won't win many friends with those words but honestly I don't care. Cool
People are complaining about the happenings in the last hours before the meeting and now we have a nearly simular situation than before the meeting in Madrid, which absolutely shouldn't be the goal of that congress (I hope so).
I can understand that, but there are also some questions which should be answerred.

Who is responsible that such a situation can happen?
I said for a long time that the statutes are only good as long as solutions can be found with agreement, if not, that statutes are the biggest crap, exactly what we saw now. Last-Minute candidates, which could be good, if there are problems to find a candidate for one post, are now a problem, because people seem to use it another way around.

The biggest problem we have is that some people judge the same situation differently only because of personal matters.
I'm sorry to mention Chris Aggelinas again, but would the reaction be the same like now against De Francesco, if Aggelinas would be elected, who was last minute candidate on friday in the evening too? Kostas also post here on forum that he talked to Chris and he told him not to be ready to apply.

We should take a general decision.
Are we against last-minute candidates or not?

Saying only you are against one person, but not against another one, if both apply in the last minute, is not the sense of statutes and rules. The reason is that others maybe think different, the result is a discussion and maybe even more.
I know that there are some reasons to be against a Sports Director De Francesco, but nobody mentioned even one of them. The only reason is that he was last-minute candidate and Italy wants to dictate FISTF, come on, don't you have better arguments?
The same with Piero, the only reason to be against a president Piero Capponi mentioned here is that he is a liar, a cheater, a producer or whatever, aren't there better arguments existing?
Do you think you can convince somebody normal with this kind of arguments?
Did people maybe think one moment about it that the lack of communication between different people caused the confusion and the result in Madrid?
Here people only try to move the responsibility to the others, the same is happening on the italian forum for sure.
I'm sorry, but this forum disqualifies itself more and more with every poor argument.
Do we want to be taken for real from people or do we want to make polemic?
People complain that polemic is done on the italian forum, people complain that italians post more on the italian forum. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that even if people don't like each other on the italian forum, they are more friendly than people here are if they don't like somebody.

Most of the people even don't have a real personal relationship but they tell each other nice things about their personality.
I think and fear that some reactions are already automatically in context with names.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:29 am

Janus_Gersie wrote:
giufaz wrote:... I tell you the truth: people that wan the elections did it in a fair and clear way. All the votes difficult to verify were from the opposit side, yours, but they were however accepted...
You are now trying to see the bad and the enemy were there was only people having an idea different from yours...you are exchanging your mistakes with unfairness of other people, you are blind in front of conduct of professionals who tried to help democracy mainly in your interest...finally you are insulting me as I didn't manage things in your sole interest and now also the lawyer that you sent to Madrid (fantastic and correct lawyer him too) as he didn't manage enough to have you as winners...

Giulio, I think you are at the edge of missing the point. Your comments make me believe you think we have a split between North and South. I personally never thought like that.
We should have been on the way of a unified FISTF. Your comments convince me some member nations thought (and still think) in the direction "North - South".

The congress wasn't a desaster in views of democratic principles (even a lot of questions are arising now which bad role some participants played) but - and your comments above are a prove - it was a desaster in the perception of how FISTF should be managed.

You as the representative of Malta should have done far more for the unification than just give your vote. That leads to the conclusion Malta was not interested in programs but only in names and "South" or "North". Now you should understand why this congress was vital for FISTF. The congress didn't reach this goal. The danger of split is not banned. We all should have done far more than just electing a new board.

You are free to sue whomever you want. But you have to live - btw until the end of your life - with the fact you were part of a possibly fatal congress. Did you know about your crucial role ? I knew about my role and therefore I am still very disappointed we were not able to unify FISTF at the congress. This is the real desaster.

Janus Gersie
Janus,
We where both there and I think we can share that things were done in the best way we could. We shared procedures and we tried to act with the utmost good faith.
I share your concern and I think that the forum should be the place to discuss arguments like yours, without prejudice and offences.
We may have different opinions (in truth you know this world of course much better than me. I'm here from less that one year). But I think that everybody around the table can share that the split of the federation would be the worst thing.
And this mainly because this split would happen not because of different ideas on table soccer but of different opinions on people that should drive the Board.
I think that everybody should now act for unity, for having a Board acting in a democratic way, for having right people in all departments, for sharing every kind of issue on materials and rules.
The new board told they will act like this and will try to be open mind. The door seems to be open and I have the impression that on this side somebody would prefer having it closed.
I really appreciated your attitude on the board and in truth I think that at the end this attitude prevailed also in the decision that the congress took.
I hope it will not became fatal and we need the cooperation of everybody to avoid this. And at the end if somebody decide to make a new federation only because they don't like De Francesco or an Italian in sport dept (this is the only argument against I'm hearing from the week before the congress), sorry for them.
I hope you will maintain the same attitude of the congress and I assure that, even if today I'm not rapresenting any country but only myself, I will remain available for any help, also to amplify your voice if you see that the Board is acting in an incorrect way.
Concerning litigation, we discussed it also at the congress and I told my position there: being a lawyer I really think that they are useless and a waste of time. I proposed to the congress to evaluate the action of a person that was kind of passing the limit. After this, however, as you may see here, I have tried several time to give this person the chance to explain and to apologize for the words he used...just to avoid to sue anybody...
I'm still here available.
Best


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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:44 am

Sorry Heinz but we mentionned the reasons why some people (for instance the official decision of the belgian association) was not to support Stefano De Francesco:
- last year he was refusing every kind of dialogue (remember Frankfurt)
- he took the decision alone to organize the Europa League
- he didn't listen to the ideas of the other people (for instance those who insisted that the 2 European Cups had to be played together and that several issues - for instance the fact that some nations send teams to the Europa League and not the champions league)
- he changed the rules during the season (which is totally unacceptable)
- he decided to change the system of qualification for the world cup and Europa cup (not qualification fromt he world ranking) and for the moment nobody knows what is the rule in progress because there is no handbook
- he resigned in his last term when he saw that many people don't like his ideas (so why is he again sports director?)
- he didn't even publish his "program" for this year's candidature (apart fromt he italian forum, which is another huge mistake of communication -> right now all FISTF news are published on the italian forum and not on the international forum, which confirms he's not a neutral person)
- in his program (on the italian forum), he clearly says he wants to give more power to the big nations and less power to the small nations (for instance saying that small nations Monaco can not vote while it should be a priority of the Board to make sure that more nations have their say in decisions)
- ...

About Capponi:
- he resigned 2 times for unexplained reasons
- he was candidate for marketing director (because there was nobody else we were fine with that because many people think ti's the only job he can (maybe) do well)
- very poor communication ability (foreign languages)
- he has had a very unfair attitude towards several players and associations
- we think he's not the kind of person who is good for the unity (even worse with the way he became president)
- a much too important pro-italian attitude ("without Italy, FISTF is nothing"!!!!!!!!!!!)
- he has commercial interests
- a big lack of experience and knowledge of the history of FISTF
- a much too personal interpretation of the statutes
- ...

I think this are the main reasons why we don't support these people.

A few weeks ago, I wrote clearly there is one very good person to be sorts director (part fromy ou because you already said you don't want to be candidate). This person is Olivier Père because he's a fair person, honest and he has the ability to work with people from different countries and fifferent opinions.

De Francesco's sports department is announced already with 5 members and 3 of them are Italians (!!!) so I really see there a will to have a "much too focused on Italy" FISTF Board.

The quite unbelievable thing it the way the italians say "they are necessary for FISTF" but when I see the italian forum (Vesa and Markus can probably confirm it), there is less than 1% of topics about the international activity, which gives me a feeling that Italians don't realy care about the international situation. As long as their interests are defended, it's fine. But what do they do for the other countries?

My feeling is inforced by statistics: if you compare the number of players from one country to the number of players ranked in the FISTF tables, Italy has a very poor ratio (only 319 in the Open ranking but 156 for Belgium (that has about 220 "real members" in all categories), and even France (42/+-120), Germany (45), , England (67), Argentina (38), Scotland (26) the Natherlands (29),... have a better ratio.

It means to me that Italy is not supporting enough FISTF "in real fact" (which means "outside of decisions"). They have also organized less FISTF tournaments than Belgium for instance...

There are many numbers that deserve to be analysed but when I read things such as "without Italy, FISTF is nothing", sorry but I don't agree at all.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:06 pm

Vincent, that's the part of the post which should be the priority to get an opinion about the candidates or the elected people. You mentioned only real arguments based on facts from the past in this post and you can say you don't have the feeling that those persons changed over the last months. That's a totally correct view on things and don't insult with even one word (halleluja I thought it isn't possible anymore Cool ).
Without your personal motivated "rampage" against some people, you would help this forum much more to be used by more people, even the people you mention below.
Honestly would you go to a forum, where things like here particullary would be written about you and post there and start there a serious discussion? I think even people who don't agree with Stefano and Piero feel a bit of Loyality for them. You on your own with your posts make them to victims.
I want to ask you something.
Do you think that the mentioned arguments below are a priority in the discussion on this forum?

Can you remember when I contacted you that I have technical problems to login on the forum? Piero maybe had the same problems and thought you hinder him to post on the forum, so he deleted his user out of proud and said you wanted him to delete his user.
Only misunderstanding but one started to blame the other one for doing something on purpose and the other one starts again with attacking.

Did you even consider one minute that it was maybe a technical problem?
Did you even think one minute about it to tell Piero that it could have been a technical problem, which is not in your responsibility and you are sorry?
On the other side:
Did Piero think one minute about it to ask Vincent, if there are technical problems?
Did Piero think one minute about it that Vincent wouldn't do something like that on purpose?

No, you told him, he is a liar, and we don't need his comments here.
On the other side Piero spread the fairy-tale that you deleted his user.

Unbelievable but it shows what can happen if peope can't communicate in a normal way with each other.

Admin wrote:Sorry Heinz but we mentionned the reasons why some people (for instance the official decision of the belgian association) was not to support Stefano De Francesco:
- last year he was refusing every kind of dialogue (remember Frankfurt)
- he took the decision alone to organize the Europa League
- he didn't listen to the ideas of the other people (for instance those who insisted that the 2 European Cups had to be played together and that several issues - for instance the fact that some nations send teams to the Europa League and not the champions league)
- he changed the rules during the season (which is totally unacceptable)
- he decided to change the system of qualification for the world cup and Europa cup (not qualification fromt he world ranking) and for the moment nobody knows what is the rule in progress because there is no handbook
- he resigned in his last term when he saw that many people don't like his ideas (so why is he again sports director?)
- he didn't even publish his "program" for this year's candidature (apart fromt he italian forum, which is another huge mistake of communication -> right now all FISTF news are published on the italian forum and not on the international forum, which confirms he's not a neutral person)
- in his program (on the italian forum), he clearly says he wants to give more power to the big nations and less power to the small nations (for instance saying that small nations Monaco can not vote while it should be a priority of the Board to make sure that more nations have their say in decisions)
- ...

About Capponi:
- he resigned 2 times for unexplained reasons
- he was candidate for marketing director (because there was nobody else we were fine with that because many people think ti's the only job he can (maybe) do well)
- very poor communication ability (foreign languages)
- he has had a very unfair attitude towards several players and associations
- we think he's not the kind of person who is good for the unity (even worse with the way he became president)
- a much too important pro-italian attitude ("without Italy, FISTF is nothing"!!!!!!!!!!!)
- he has commercial interests
- a big lack of experience and knowledge of the history of FISTF
- a much too personal interpretation of the statutes
- ...

I think this are the main reasons why we don't support these people.


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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:16 pm

Did you maybe think about it, that the italians are not happy with the current formats and the FISTF of the last years and so they didn't support the tournaments with the big numbers?
Did you maybe think about it that it is Stefano's (italian federation's) interest to change FISTF that the italians will be more interested?

I can be wrong, but do you know that I'm wrong?

I agree on it that if he wants to do that he has to be more careful about the other players and clubs, that's a point of discussion for sure, but generally it needs a better implementation of Italy then the tournaments of FISTF will become bigger and more players will enter FISTF events. As I said, it is also important to look on the current players and teams who travel to keep the international flair on the tour. Nobody should loose the interest, who is currently interested, new people should only be won. If you act responsible and very careful that is a very hard and interesting job. If you don't care about one part it is a very easy job. It only depends on it how much challenge somebody is ready to have. Of course I hope Stefano chooses the biggest possible challenge to solve that.

Admin wrote:
My feeling is inforced by statistics: if you compare the number of players from one country to the number of players ranked in the FISTF tables, Italy has a very poor ratio (only 319 in the Open ranking but 156 for Belgium (that has about 220 "real members" in all categories), and even France (42/+-120), Germany (45), , England (67), Argentina (38), Scotland (26) the Natherlands (29),... have a better ratio.

It means to me that Italy is not supporting enough FISTF "in real fact" (which means "outside of decisions"). They have also organized less FISTF tournaments than Belgium for instance...

There are many numbers that deserve to be analysed but when I read things such as "without Italy, FISTF is nothing", sorry but I don't agree at all.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:21 pm

giufaz: You want me to appologize and take my words of criticism back only because you think and try to make me look something that only you think i am. I'm not going to appologize something that i'm not nor didn't do just because someone who doesn't know me keeps saying that.

The only reason for your behaviour is to try draw attention and criticism out of the right place and try to get people against the ones that are publicly criticizing the thing that toke place last weekend. Your act of desperation ain't gonna work and people won't just swallow your version of the "truth", you should had noticed this some time ago.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Admin on Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:00 pm

Heinz, Piero's "incident" could be a very strange coincidence but in his last message, he wrote "it was his last post on this forum". When Luis Horta asked me on Facebook (chat window) if I did something, I didn't even know what he was talking about. I checked my e-mails on outlook and the first message I got was the one I published ("pierocapponi" deleted his account). OK, maybe it's a coincidence but do you think it was my first idea to think it was a coincidence?

I don't think I have ever insulted someone. I just reported facts. When I said Piero is a liar and a cheater, it's because he lied and cheated (to betray people is a way to cheat). I don't even speak here about his blackmail (mails of last friday published elsewhere ont his forum). Now, that people like my style or not is another story. I have always been like that and it seems it's the heritage of my family. At the end, I believe it's better to say right things that hurt instead of being polite with lies. I'm not perfect but those who know me can say that words like honesty, truth and fair-play are very important values in my life. That's how I am, even if we are in a world where personal interests or selfish people make things complicated.

I could have been in this Board but I refused. That's my choice because I believe Piero had showed an attitude that doesn't deserve my respect. After many years of work, Ithink I don't have anything to prove in FISTF. If I get involved now, I will have much more to lose and sincerely, I don't think there is an interesting challenge for me in the current FISTF Board. If Vesa or Markus had been president, I would have had a different vision because I believe both are great guys and they deserve a chance (and therefore I could help them, even if I'm not in the Board).

About your other post, I agree Italians may not agree on some topics but when you are part of an international movement, even the biggest national association can not rule others. Democracy means every country should have his say in decisions. Even partner nations should be asked their opinions (when it's not about electing people) and itaians must understand that people in Singapore or Argentina can also have interesting ideas, which are sometimes very different of what we think in "big associations".

Italy is lucky enough to have a great domestic circuit and for many reasons, they don't really need FISTF. When players have the chance to play tournaments every week intheir own country, they should tell nations with less than 50 players how to run the game. the problem with Italy is a kind of "arrogance" that they don't understand. I agree they have more players and clubs than the other big nations such as Greece or Belgium but at the same time, they should understand they are extremely lucky to have material sold in the shops (thanks to italian distributors who haven't done much to do the same in other countries), to have had the impact of "Subbuteo La Legenda" in the book shops, to live in a country where football is extremely popular,... If they can't understand that other nations have their own problems, it's very sad.

About 10 years ago, I was very motivated to work for the belgian association and I had a lot of ideas to develop the game in Belgium. Because at the time I was very young compared to the "old" people of the Belgian Board who wanted to keep "subbuteo as it is", not only I concentrated my energy on FISTF but I also saw that in my country, people are not ready for big changes. Now they pay the consequences, even if I think in general we are doing a good job. We have 12 clubs (most of them are working very well) and about 220 registered players so we can't complain. The efforts to promote the game have brought more sadness and loss of motivation than positive feedback. For instabnce last year there was a huge show in one of the bggest shopping centers of the country (in Mons) and thee was even the belgian distributor of ZEUGO present in the hall. At the end, we didn't get any single new player (!!!!!) and you can not imagine the feeling it is to think it's wasted energy. That's just a story to illustrate that Italians should understand what is working in their country is not always working abroad.
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:02 pm

Admin wrote:Heinz, Piero's "incident" could be a very strange coincidence but in his last message, he wrote "it was his last post on this forum". When Luis Horta asked me on Facebook (chat window) if I did something, I didn't even know what he was talking about. I checked my e-mails on outlook and the first message I got was the one I published ("pierocapponi" deleted his account). OK, maybe it's a coincidence but do you think it was my first idea to think it was a coincidence?

That's what I wanted to point out. The first idea is always a bad ulterior motive between a few people. I don't think it is possible to repair the "relationship" between some people, but it must be possible to stop that way of thinking in every situation.

Admin wrote:
I don't think I have ever insulted someone. I just reported facts. When I said Piero is a liar and a cheater, it's because he lied and cheated (to betray people is a way to cheat). I don't even speak here about his blackmail (mails of last friday published elsewhere ont his forum). Now, that people like my style or not is another story. I have always been like that and it seems it's the heritage of my family. At the end, I believe it's better to say right things that hurt instead of being polite with lies. I'm not perfect but those who know me can say that words like honesty, truth and fair-play are very important values in my life. That's how I am, even if we are in a world where personal interests or selfish people make things complicated.

Vincent, we are not talking about the best friends of your private life, who should know you exactly to know that you don't insult people by calling them thieves, cheaters, liars or selfish people. We are talking about an international community with many different characters, philosophies and cultures. In most cases you don't have a close personal relationship.

Admin wrote:
About your other post, I agree Italians may not agree on some topics but when you are part of an international movement, even the biggest national association can not rule others. Democracy means every country should have his say in decisions. Even partner nations should be asked their opinions (when it's not about electing people) and itaians must understand that people in Singapore or Argentina can also have interesting ideas, which are sometimes very different of what we think in "big associations".

You are right by saying they can not rule the community, I also mentioned that in my previous post, but the same way you can't say that the rest can ignore them, because the rest is the majority especially in the current situation. I think there is too less communication, instead of refusing an idea automatically with the argument the majority don't agree on it, it would be much better to work on every proposal trying to find a solution for the minority and the majority together. Of course there are situations where it is not possible, but currently it is not possible generally.
Everybody must be heard with the same voice. The nationality of somebody with a good idea has to be totally meaningless, that's something some people in Italy may have to understand.

Admin wrote:
Italy is lucky enough to have a great domestic circuit and for many reasons, they don't really need FISTF. When players have the chance to play tournaments every week intheir own country, they should tell nations with less than 50 players how to run the game. the problem with Italy is a kind of "arrogance" that they don't understand. I agree they have more players and clubs than the other big nations such as Greece or Belgium but at the same time, they should understand they are extremely lucky to have material sold in the shops (thanks to italian distributors who haven't done much to do the same in other countries), to have had the impact of "Subbuteo La Legenda" in the book shops, to live in a country where football is extremely popular,... If they can't understand that other nations have their own problems, it's very sad.

I think there is nobody who can say he understands the problems of all countries. Remember Vincent, we also didn't understand all problems the right way every time.
The problem is that the italians only know their situation and don't know the reasons why others are in a different situation, that's totally right.

Another problem is that people maybe interpreted some views or answers as arrogance, but they never checked it. The italians maybe thought that the board before 2010 was arrogant, the greeks and maltese maybe thought the same.
We must change our way of talking to each other, most of the people can't express themselves in english the same way they could in their native language. So if somebody seems to be arrogant the other one must say that he feels that answer or view as arrogance.
The benefit of FISTF is to play a hobby with (against) people of other countries and cultures, many of my friends are envious when I tell them I travel to different countries to meet people from other countries to have a talk and fun with them by playing table soccer.
A lot of fun gets lost when you can read here that people want to sue others and a lot of fun also gets lost when you see the reasons why they want to sue.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:03 pm

Kaitsu wrote:giufaz: You want me to appologize and take my words of criticism back only because you think and try to make me look something that only you think i am. I'm not going to appologize something that i'm not nor didn't do just because someone who doesn't know me keeps saying that.

The only reason for your behaviour is to try draw attention and criticism out of the right place and try to get people against the ones that are publicly criticizing the thing that toke place last weekend. Your act of desperation ain't gonna work and people won't just swallow your version of the "truth", you should had noticed this some time ago.
Kaitsu,
Maybe you fill a bit at the center of the world.
When I was talking of apologize I wasn't referring to you, as your intervention were not subject of discussion on the congress.
But of course as we say excusatio non petit a accusatio manifests...if you like to apologize you are welcome. If not, no matter for the discussion on this forum.
I thing that the discussion Heinz is doing now is much more interesting and I'm more interested on seeing the debate now.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Kaitsu on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:13 pm

giufaz wrote:I have tried several time to give this person the chance to explain and to apologize for the words he used...just to avoid to sue anybody...
Just saw this and it fitted into the convo between us. Missed the relationship with congress. My bad Very Happy
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  drastis on Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:48 pm

Very sad to read threats about law sues in this forum. Completely useless and pointless.

I do not subscribe to calling people names, but what happened in Madrid was actually the enforcement of Italy's will to all other nations, through a legitimate process, so it is natural that some people, especially those involved, have gone mad.

On top of mistreating the people who protest, do we have to sue them also?? Legal is not always ethical, this everyone knows. Italy and friends found a way to prevail, and they DO rejoice about it, is it necessary to convince us that everything was done according to morality rules? Or do you think that people who have been deceived must shut up?

If the purpose of these threats is to intimidate people and make them stop writing in this forum, the only result you will get is to see new anonymous users writing worse things than the ones you read now.

Giulio, please stop this, as Heinz said we were also fine without lawyers.

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:38 am

Hi Giulio,

I'm still awaiting your reply to my PM impatiently!

Thanks...
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  georgy on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:26 am

giufaz wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:
I agree,

So if you are seriously trying to get something out of this "racist" -thing, i'm up for it. As i (and everyone else) know(s) that your threats about legal acts agains this "racisms" is equally convincing as Ahmed the dead terrorist shouting "I KILL YOU!". If you don't know Ahmed, check it from Youtube, here's link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouDRDzqTu0M
In short, don't make threats you are not able to claim.

really funny Kaitsu,

can you please send me your details, also via pm if you prefer? In particular I would like to know your Country, full name and date of birth.
I think it could be sufficient to check if also in your country racism is a crime.
Good luck

Mr giufaz,

Having read your posts in this thread, I have to tell you that your above comment is offensive towards the Finns!

Since you are a lawyer, I think I can assume correctly that you have the minimum amount of intelligence required, in order to be able to read.
Therefore I can assume that you saw that next to Mr. Kaitsu's name there is info of his
country (Finland) and city (Helsinki), before/when exchanging posts with him.

Therefore, the only way I can interpret your above comment (in red) is that you call Finns racists, since you act as if you do not know if racism in Finland (one of the most civilized countries in Europe) is a crime, and you have "to check"!!!!

I might be Greek, but my wife is Finn, and my 2 small children are finnish citizens, therefore I also feel extremely offended by your comment above.

I would like to point out sir, that Finland (the country with the minimum amount of corruption, unlike yours and mine -- this is not a racist comment about our countries, it is a fact and you can check it in any published study on the web) is the first European country in which women (a group of people still suffering racial discrimination even in Europe) were allowed to vote! Their parliament consist of something like 40% of women, their president is a woman etc... The above, can show you that your previous "hint" is totally wrong and offensive towards the Finns, and people related to them.
I could write a whole essay about the fact that racial discrimination does not exist in Finland, but I hope that you can understand my point.

Please sir, I would like you to send me your full name, date of birth, employer's address, and the info of the lawer's association in Italy (or whatever you call it) in order to file an official complaint, if you do not apologize or take back your previous derogatory comment. Even more so, because I see that you exploit your profession (which is a sacred profession!) by threatening/bullying people in a public forum, calling them racists, while I have just proven, that you are such, towards Finns.

Sincerely
Georgios Papadopoulos

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. I paste here the definition of "racism" which can be found in Wiki. The following is the "legal" definition.

The UN does not define "racism", however it does define "racial discrimination": according to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

As you understand sir, the important point is not what you say, or what you believe but your ACTIONS!
In a democratic environment everyone has the right to believe in whatever he wants, as well as the right to express his beliefs (freedom of speech).
The important word is not "racial" but "discrimination".
I have the right to believe that for example Italians are corrupted, that Greeks are stupid, that
Finns are lazy bastards!!!
I do not have the right to "discriminate", and that's what's making me a racist.
Not my opinions!!!! My actions.

Good luck sir
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:38 pm

georgy wrote:
giufaz wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:
I agree,

So if you are seriously trying to get something out of this "racist" -thing, i'm up for it. As i (and everyone else) know(s) that your threats about legal acts agains this "racisms" is equally convincing as Ahmed the dead terrorist shouting "I KILL YOU!". If you don't know Ahmed, check it from Youtube, here's link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouDRDzqTu0M
In short, don't make threats you are not able to claim.

really funny Kaitsu,

can you please send me your details, also via pm if you prefer? In particular I would like to know your Country, full name and date of birth.
I think it could be sufficient to check if also in your country racism is a crime.
Good luck

Mr giufaz,

Having read your posts in this thread, I have to tell you that your above comment is offensive towards the Finns!

Since you are a lawyer, I think I can assume correctly that you have the minimum amount of intelligence required, in order to be able to read.
Therefore I can assume that you saw that next to Mr. Kaitsu's name there is info of his
country (Finland) and city (Helsinki), before/when exchanging posts with him.

Therefore, the only way I can interpret your above comment (in red) is that you call Finns racists, since you act as if you do not know if racism in Finland (one of the most civilized countries in Europe) is a crime, and you have "to check"!!!!

I might be Greek, but my wife is Finn, and my 2 small children are finnish citizens, therefore I also feel extremely offended by your comment above.

I would like to point out sir, that Finland (the country with the minimum amount of corruption, unlike yours and mine -- this is not a racist comment about our countries, it is a fact and you can check it in any published study on the web) is the first European country in which women (a group of people still suffering racial discrimination even in Europe) were allowed to vote! Their parliament consist of something like 40% of women, their president is a woman etc... The above, can show you that your previous "hint" is totally wrong and offensive towards the Finns, and people related to them.
I could write a whole essay about the fact that racial discrimination does not exist in Finland, but I hope that you can understand my point.

Please sir, I would like you to send me your full name, date of birth, employer's address, and the info of the lawer's association in Italy (or whatever you call it) in order to file an official complaint, if you do not apologize or take back your previous derogatory comment. Even more so, because I see that you exploit your profession (which is a sacred profession!) by threatening/bullying people in a public forum, calling them racists, while I have just proven, that you are such, towards Finns.

Sincerely
Georgios Papadopoulos

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. I paste here the definition of "racism" which can be found in Wiki. The following is the "legal" definition.

The UN does not define "racism", however it does define "racial discrimination": according to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

As you understand sir, the important point is not what you say, or what you believe but your ACTIONS!
In a democratic environment everyone has the right to believe in whatever he wants, as well as the right to express his beliefs (freedom of speech).
The important word is not "racial" but "discrimination".
I have the right to believe that for example Italians are corrupted, that Greeks are stupid, that
Finns are lazy bastards!!!
I do not have the right to "discriminate", and that's what's making me a racist.
Not my opinions!!!! My actions.

Good luck sir
Dear Georgy,
You work too much with fantasy. If you review all my intervention you can see what I think. Just to be clear: in this forum there were people saying that the new board if mafia, that Italians are stupid, no intelligent and honest people among them, that table football could live even better without Italy and finally there was a person, unfortunately Finnish, that found just humor in posting a picture with Gathafy with the Italian flag in the cap.
This person was inviting me to sue him in his country and, as Finland is one of the few Countries were I never worked as lawyer, I told him that I had to check if his conduct is a crime in his Country. I never doubt of how good is Finland: I just don't know their law.
Up to know I was the only one in this forum saying that I like Belgian people and I can confirm also that I think Finland is a fantastic Country (one Italian friend of mine live there and the only defect is that it is too cold).
On the contrary the best I got here as remedy for Italy was some comment on Italian women (still humor?).
Now you are trying to use a silly accuse just to diverse the attention. Many compliments: I saw only two persons taking the distance from offenses and racism and many people continuing with this attitude.
You are among them and trying also to offend me as lawyer. You can find my data on my profile and my Professional institution is in Palermo: so you have everything you need. Good luck. I see you are Greek and in this I'lucky: I work also in Greece and know a greek law.
I thought that after Heinz and Jersie intervention there was the chance to discuss about table soccer but I see that you are interested only in polemics. I'm looking forward to see the official website of FISTF on line to have the chance to discuss what is more of interest that just making polemics with people just interested in offending my Country or defending those who find just humor in offending us...

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  dromer on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:47 pm

'On the contrary the best i got .... is some comment on italian women (still humor)'

This was a compliment towards your beautifull women!!! I really don't get it someone can get offended by reading that post.
It was my way to make clear to loosen up a bit. It seems you see racism in each post made on this forum, it is not the case.
Btw your own posts aren't free of insinuations.
All the best though


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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:51 pm

dromer wrote:'On the contrary the best i got .... is some comment on italian women (still humor)'

This was a compliment towards your beautifull women!!! I really don't get it someone can get offended by reading that post.

It's so simple: your comment was against all Non-Italian women and against Italian men... Question Shocked
I'm getting confused Wink
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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

Post  panagios on Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:03 pm

have you not read "asterix in Corsica" ? Very Happy

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Re: EGM Madrid 26 - 27 February

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