The situation of the world rankings

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:42 am

I have too much negative past to do anything ever again Cool

SergLoureiro wrote:Vesa could be an option, there's only one question for the dubious ones, has he experience enough to take such a responsability? Well, the experienced "masters" failed, so, why don't give him this opportunity?! Supported by a strong team, i mean, Vincent, Heinz/Olivier, Luis, Freddy, Fred Vulpes, John Lauder, someone from Italy (Galeazzi, Antonello), perhaps a Greek one (Koutis, Drazinakis, Aggelinas)...
Think about it Vesa, that's what I suggest...

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Lorenzo on Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:02 pm

I think Perdaens’ attitude is wrong.

I realize his frustration with the inefficiency and the many questionable – maybe even crooked – decisions taken by the current Board; he was probably getting close to the point of being unable to work properly, and nobody could criticize him for resigning his post.

But refusing to hand over the ranking to Catania is an illicit decision which breaks all rules. Besides, it sets a dangerous precedent, and adds even more strain to the international tablesoccer community.

Somebody could reply that since Catania broke so many rules, Perdaens was right in serving him with the same sauce; if that is so, and since everybody seems convinced that somebody else was first in breaking the rules, each person is entitled to do whatever he wants, and FISTF shall be a memory soon.

Finally, everybody agrees on the integrity of Perdaens’ work all over these years, both here and on the Italian forum.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:45 pm

Lorenzo your view is valid of course but I want to try showing you another view.
As von K described the sports department refused some events as officially confirmed, Silvio would add those events in the WR.

It is also a question of principles in my opinion.
In that case it is very clear that Silvio would break existing rules of FISTF, so the question is, would you support somebody doing that actively by giving him the files?
You say yes, because it breaks all rules, if somebody works for FISTF and don't handover the things he did or the tools he used for his work.
Others say no, because of the reasons described above. For those people it is a question of responsibility.

Personally I clearly say that I wouldn't handover it in that case too, because I don't want to support somebody to break rules of FISTF and to bring problems to a future board, who has to deal with those things then, when they have to tell players and teams that mistakes happen and because of that the ranking points have to be removed. (responsibility)
People won't say in some months, that your decision was right, because you did what is ethically right, more they will blame you and ask, why you didn't avoid that when you already knew that those decisions by some people were wrong.

Somebody who has to take such a decision can only loose in public, people are disappointed that there is no ranking, and Silvio sends out an aggressive circular that Freddy is responsible for that, because he doesn't pass the tools and files.
Do you think Freddy takes all that blame without very serious reasons? Freddy is one of the most serious people I know in FISTF's work.

Lorenzo wrote:I think Perdaens’ attitude is wrong.

I realize his frustration with the inefficiency and the many questionable – maybe even crooked – decisions taken by the current Board; he was probably getting close to the point of being unable to work properly, and nobody could criticize him for resigning his post.

But refusing to hand over the ranking to Catania is an illicit decision which breaks all rules. Besides, it sets a dangerous precedent, and adds even more strain to the international tablesoccer community.

Somebody could reply that since Catania broke so many rules, Perdaens was right in serving him with the same sauce; if that is so, and since everybody seems convinced that somebody else was first in breaking the rules, each person is entitled to do whatever he wants, and FISTF shall be a memory soon.

Finally, everybody agrees on the integrity of Perdaens’ work all over these years, both here and on the Italian forum.

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Thossa on Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:06 pm

Very good statement, Heinz. Bravissimo Wink Now everyone should have a clear view on Freddy´s reason. As soon as FISTF is out of deep water, and a good sports department is in charge, the WR apears again in a normal way. Isn´t that so, Freddy?
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:42 pm

Thossa wrote:As soon as FISTF is out of deep water, and a good sports department is in charge, the WR apears again in a normal way. Isn´t that so, Freddy?

Hmmh, would be necesary because due to tradition the April ranking is taken to have the qualified players for the WorldCup. If we don't have a ranking who will be the qualified players ?
It was just a rhetorical question ....
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New FISTF logo.

Post  Tom Conway on Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:20 pm

Introducing the new appropriate FISTF logo.

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:27 pm

Laughing

Tom Conway wrote:Introducing the new appropriate FISTF logo.

http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  SergLoureiro on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:32 pm

U've some negative past, actually...But not too much. Don't be that pessimistic! Laughing



Heinz Eder wrote:I have too much negative past to do anything ever again Cool

SergLoureiro wrote:Vesa could be an option, there's only one question for the dubious ones, has he experience enough to take such a responsability? Well, the experienced "masters" failed, so, why don't give him this opportunity?! Supported by a strong team, i mean, Vincent, Heinz/Olivier, Luis, Freddy, Fred Vulpes, John Lauder, someone from Italy (Galeazzi, Antonello), perhaps a Greek one (Koutis, Drazinakis, Aggelinas)...
Think about it Vesa, that's what I suggest...

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  kechris on Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:27 pm

Ι think that mr Peardens has right.
He proves also that Catania co is so bad. They cann't to prepare a ranking. And they are proffesionals...ha ha ha.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:56 am

Heinz Eder wrote:Lorenzo your view is valid of course but I want to try showing you another view [...]

Hi Heinz,

you are saying that in front of a near tiranny a man of principles shall raise his voice and strive to restore a lawful order, even at the price of breaking the existing rules.

I value your opinion, yet I remain unconvinced. Right and wrong are elusive concepts; most persons have no sense for objectivity and self-criticism, and are convinced of their own righteousness at all times. De Francesco and Coppenolle are equally adamant in their belief to have been wronged by each other, and I can bet Catania is as confident in the integrity of his work as you and Paerdens are convinced of its inanity.

If antagonisms are allowed to escalate to the point where FISTF officials take advantage of their positions to boycott each other’s work, the association won’t stand a chance – any future Board shall fall apart in a matter of months. To remain to the present time, what if Catania countered Paerdens’ boycott by the threat to destroy all FISTF documents in his custody, or even by revoking the EGM and forcing you to set off an involved, expensive lawsuit to remove him from office? Remember, wars can be waged from both sides of the pond.

Revolutionary acts are fine to me, as far as it is understood that they are hardly compatible with existing institutions. If FISTF is to be revived, I believe that restraint and moderation are the obligatory starting point on the part of us all.

The Catania Board is already dead; further acts of defiance are children’s toys. The EGM is hovering close, and the possibility of a split-up is very real. Let’s forget the rows of the past and make an effort toward unity.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:37 pm

I don't understand that.

Lorenzo wrote:
Hi Heinz,

you are saying that in front of a near tiranny a man of principles shall raise his voice and strive to restore a lawful order, even at the price of breaking the existing rules.

You are right, what you say, but between De Francesco and Coppenole and the situation we are actually talking about is a big difference. De Francesco and Coppenole don't "fight" because of rules which are already written down, they discuss about a direction for FISTF. In that case you are totally right, both can say that they are right and the other one is wrong.
In our actual case we have rules which proof who is right and who is wrong. It is clearly written down, so in that case it is very clear who is right and who is wrong.

Lorenzo wrote:
I value your opinion, yet I remain unconvinced. Right and wrong are elusive concepts; most persons have no sense for objectivity and self-criticism, and are convinced of their own righteousness at all times. De Francesco and Coppenolle are equally adamant in their belief to have been wronged by each other, and I can bet Catania is as confident in the integrity of his work as you and Paerdens are convinced of its inanity.

Where is a boycott, Freddy stopped his work. Silvio for sure has the last edition of the ranking and all the other files, he has a handbook where it is written down how the ranking should be done, so who stops him to continue? Freddy didn't use a special software for the ranking, it was all done in excel.

Lorenzo wrote:
If antagonisms are allowed to escalate to the point where FISTF officials take advantage of their positions to boycott each other’s work, the association won’t stand a chance – any future Board shall fall apart in a matter of months. To remain to the present time, what if Catania countered Paerdens’ boycott by the threat to destroy all FISTF documents in his custody, or even by revoking the EGM and forcing you to set off an involved, expensive lawsuit to remove him from office? Remember, wars can be waged from both sides of the pond.

I don't think that Freddy's decision was a act to kill a dead board a second time, or it also shouldn't be a childish act. He on his own couldn't take the responsibility anymore to be respsonsible for the ranking, so he stopped. All he had to forward, Silvio got every month, when Freddy sent out the ranking files.

Lorenzo wrote:
The Catania Board is already dead; further acts of defiance are children’s toys. The EGM is hovering close, and the possibility of a split-up is very real. Let’s forget the rows of the past and make an effort toward unity.

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:49 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Where is a boycott, Freddy stopped his work. Silvio for sure has the last edition of the ranking and all the other files, he has a handbook where it is written down how the ranking should be done, so who stops him to continue? Freddy didn't use a special software for the ranking, it was all done in excel.

Really? I understood that Freddy refused to hand over files that are required to do the ranking, and so Sylvio was unable to do the ranking himself. That's the only reason why he was criticized on the Italian forum.

If that is not the case the whole discussion is pointless; of course Freddy had every right to quit his post if he didn't feel like working with Catania any longer.

Sometimes whole arguments are started over a misunderstanding; perhaps we all should draw a lesson from it.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  maxischn on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:44 pm

after all that happened, i wouldn't believe a single word of catania Smile

and i can't imagine what "critical" files you would need to continue the ranking, as the system should be clear and straight and he should have all results of the tournaments (even those only he knew of)
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  drastis on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Where is a boycott, Freddy stopped his work. Silvio for sure has the last edition of the ranking and all the other files, he has a handbook where it is written down how the ranking should be done, so who stops him to continue? Freddy didn't use a special software for the ranking, it was all done in excel.

Really? I understood that Freddy refused to hand over files that are required to do the ranking, and so Sylvio was unable to do the ranking himself. That's the only reason why he was criticized on the Italian forum.

If that is not the case the whole discussion is pointless; of course Freddy had every right to quit his post if he didn't feel like working with Catania any longer.

Sometimes whole arguments are started over a misunderstanding; perhaps we all should draw a lesson from it.

The WR file is indeed an Excel, so anyone knowing how to work with this and, most importantly, being ready to put some hard work himself could do the job.

Lorenzo, perhaps the lesson we all should take is that some people are ready to tell any kind of lies and to accuse others, just to avoid exposing their own ignorance and incompetency.

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  von K. on Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:52 pm

Lorenzo wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Where is a boycott, Freddy stopped his work. Silvio for sure has the last edition of the ranking and all the other files, he has a handbook where it is written down how the ranking should be done, so who stops him to continue? Freddy didn't use a special software for the ranking, it was all done in excel.

Really? I understood that Freddy refused to hand over files that are required to do the ranking, and so Sylvio was unable to do the ranking himself. That's the only reason why he was criticized on the Italian forum.

I wrote this a couple of days ago:

von K. wrote:The competition results and past rankings are no secret, and I would expect Catania to have that information. He should have that, because he has access to all FISTF matters. So, I don't understand what he wants Freddy to send him. Can someone tell me that?

If someone can tell me that there is some secret information that Catania doesn't have, and Freddy is the only one having it, then things are different. I don't think it is right to keep information as secret, and in this hypothesis Freddy would be wrong.

But with the informatio at this moment, I think that even I could get all the information, and count the rankings, if I would have a valid calendar in front of me. It would be a lot of work, though.

Lorenzo, if the italian forum is still thinking about this, and asking for my answer, you can write this there. (I always spend hours if I visit the italian forum, and it is not possible at the moment.)

Lorenzo wrote:Sometimes whole arguments are started over a misunderstanding; perhaps we all should draw a lesson from it.

This is true. And too many times people expect the worst without asking and confirming. We should all improve on this. Too much prejudice, too little will to understand and confirm the facts.

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Thossa on Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:14 pm

drastis wrote:Lorenzo, perhaps the lesson we all should take is that some people are ready to tell any kind of lies and to accuse others, just to avoid exposing their own ignorance and incompetency.

Yep!!!!! Unfortunely it falls on deaf ears by the most of that "some people" Sad
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:05 pm

I dropped a question on the Italian forum and here is De Francesco's reply. You understand that I take no position over the subject, and I am posting the text because it’s crucial to the folder’s topic.

Il ranking non si può fare perchè pur avendo tutti i risultati manca la cosa più importante, ovvero i punti delle stagioni precedenti da scalare. Solo Perdaens ha questi dati e si rifiuta di consegnarli a Catania.

“The ranking can’t be calculated even if all results are available because the critical factor is missing, that is, the points of past seasons to be scaled down. They are in Perdaens’ possession, and he refuses to hand them over to Catania”

Perhaps Vincent or any other among our Belgian friends knows something for sure, and can shed light on the matter.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:52 pm

Lorenzo wrote:I understood that Freddy refused to hand over files that are required to do the ranking

Well, the whole story is really easy: As the Excel file is Freddy's intellectual property he is free to pass it or not. That's all. No blaming against Feddy as I can imagine how Silvio asked him !

We should close the discussion here about this topic. There is neither Freddy to blame nor a discussion possible about copyrights.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:09 am

Lorenzo wrote:I dropped a question on the Italian forum and here is De Francesco's reply. You understand that I take no position over the subject, and I am posting the text because it’s crucial to the folder’s topic.

Il ranking non si può fare perchè pur avendo tutti i risultati manca la cosa più importante, ovvero i punti delle stagioni precedenti da scalare. Solo Perdaens ha questi dati e si rifiuta di consegnarli a Catania.

“The ranking can’t be calculated even if all results are available because the critical factor is missing, that is, the points of past seasons to be scaled down. They are in Perdaens’ possession, and he refuses to hand them over to Catania”

Perhaps Vincent or any other among our Belgian friends knows something for sure, and can shed light on the matter.

There is neither a secret nor a critical factor in it:
Points from one year back have to be reduced by 50%, points from two years back have to be deleted.
It should be possible to find all the results needed on the official website - so the question emerges: who is refusing to give the needed information?
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  von K. on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:14 am

Thanks Lorenzo, for being a messenger (sorry for the trouble).

Lorenzo wrote:
“The ranking can’t be calculated even if all results are available because the critical factor is missing, that is, the points of past seasons to be scaled down. They are in Perdaens’ possession, and he refuses to hand them over to Catania”

So, this information is something that is nowhere else. Like past rankings and results + rules about ranking.

For example if you get August 2010 ranking, and as FISTF director have access to all previous rankings and results, and the calculation rules regarding past seasons are in the rules, then is there something still missing?

But if the information is something that no one else in FISTF has, and no one in a FISTF Board can get hold on, then of course Freddy should give it into open.

The problematic bit becomes if Janus view about the problem is correct. The work, and how Freddy does it, is his business. FISTF doesn't pay him, and doesn't own the program files he uses. Then it is up to Freddy to give them for free or not to give them. In this case I can imagine a lot of work and hours being put into creating those files. But if they are files given to Freddy by FISTF, or if FISTF has ordered them and paid for their copyright to Freddy, then they are FISTF property.

But it's just useless speculation at the moment from my part. I don't know enough facts about this.

So, I've sent mail to Freddy, and hope to find out something more about the information in question. It's impossible to comment now for certain. I hope the answer from Freddy gives more details about the nature of this information.

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Admin on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:29 am

Freddy was the one who made the Excel file with all the macros to make the automatic calculations.

It would be also very interesting to know how muh help Freddy has had over the last few months to get all results files (with allr equired infos such as birthdates, clubs,...) from the rest of the BoD... I know that in several cases, he struggled to collect the datas because nobody was providing him what he needed.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Thossa on Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:30 am

I think Marcus gave in the name of Freddy the correct answer for all italian forum users, if they feel free to use this forum, too.

Olivier Père and Heinz Eder knows how WR have to be make... btw, why not the last FISTF Sports Director?
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Lorenzo on Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:02 am

von K. wrote:Thanks Lorenzo, for being a messenger (sorry for the trouble).

No pain Vesa! Besides, I am not Stefano's messenger, but simply a person interested in determining the truth.

From a juridical point of view Freddy probably has the full right to keep the files to himself. However, the point is not copyright laws, but whether an active boycott is being waged against Catania or not. That means: the fact that we miss the ranking is due to Catania’s slothfulness or to the fact that Freddy is withholding the files?

I think that changes a lot in the assessment of the situation. And that’s exactly what forums should be all about: the spreading of accurate information in order to help people to shape informed opinions.

As a final note, I would like to emphasize that nobody dreams to underrate Freddy’s work, which has been an asset to the gaming community for so many years, and which must have assumed heroic proportions in the chaos of the last 12 months.
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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  von K. on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:20 am

Lorenzo wrote:
von K. wrote:Thanks Lorenzo, for being a messenger (sorry for the trouble).

No pain Vesa! Besides, I am not Stefano's messenger, but simply a person interested in determining the truth.

I know, Lorenzo. That's why I meant a messenger between forums. I don't have time for the italian forum at the moment, and there are not many people who follow both.

Lorenzo wrote:From a juridical point of view Freddy probably has the full right to keep the files to himself. However, the point is not copyright laws, but whether an active boycott is being waged against Catania or not. That means: the fact that we miss the ranking is due to Catania’s slothfulness or to the fact that Freddy is withholding the files?

I think that changes a lot in the assessment of the situation.

Yes, Lorenzo, the point can also be a moral decision, or about pride. About a boycott, I can't say.

I can confirm first hand that it could as well be considered that Catania waged an active boycott against the Sports Commission last autumn. Wasting many people's time. On top of which he has broken promises and rules. That is why I would not help him in any way, if it meant giving my hard work to him for free.

"You reap what you sow."

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Re: The situation of the world rankings

Post  Thossa on Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:22 am

I am curious if any of the Perdeans-critics tried to get in though with Freddy for a dialogue.
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