New plastic goalkeeper

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:22 pm

Personnally I use the plastic keeper with a sports figure (and a metal rod) and I think it's really a good one going "in the spirit of the game". I think it would be a shame if we can't use it anymore in the future.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:42 pm

It´s all the same for me which kind of keeper it could be.

I am only saying it would be easier at the moment to chose one of current types to be the one and only than to forbid both soon.

And such tool could be the simplest solution Smile
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  The_Ozzman_Cometh on Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:20 pm

We have in the UK a player who has manufactured a Goalkeeper which is akin to the Flat players used.Each Goalkeeper(which is a Flat Player) and Rod are the same.
We have in the UK a "Flats" National Competition and each of us use the same type Goalkeeper-not sure if this could be used worldwide-or at least the principle of it-just my thoughts that's all.

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  drastis on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:23 pm

Thossa wrote:It´s all the same for me which kind of keeper it could be.

I am only saying it would be easier at the moment to chose one of current types to be the one and only than to forbid both soon.

And such tool could be the simplest solution Smile

Thossa, my man!!! Why did you have to quit your position in FISTF???

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:15 pm

georgy wrote:
5.2.1. The goalkeeper's rod shall be a straight rod up to 15 cm in length
and 4 mm of maximum width, excluding the handle.

By the way, can you bend or not the rod once?

George if you read CAREFULLY the rule 5.2.1 you will find the answer of your question.

Two question to ex BoD members.

Who gave homologation to FISTF sport keeper?
Why?
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:38 pm

kechris wrote:

Who gave homologation to FISTF sport keeper?
Why?

48 hours passed but none answer in my question.
Maybe many people feel guilty for their decisions...
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:57 pm

Sorry but I think it's for the period 1994-96 so I don't know who did that.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:58 pm

Yes of course. FISTF Sports figures (incl. Keeper) are an invention by Willy Hofmann and they came up at the period as Laurent Garnier was FISTF President.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:00 am

Yes but then fistf keeper had different base (shorter with smaller surface in the bottom) and smaller and thinner figure. Now it has bigger base, body, and
My question:
Why the last 10 ten years FISTF allow this illegal keepers?
The dimension of this keeper are about 38 mm height (ok), 21 mm width (ok) and 21mm thick (350% over the limit!!! no ok).
FISTF is the first responsible who gave homologation before about ten years and didn't check again the new models.
5.3.2.3l "Wooden and polystyrene versions of the goalkeeper figure are accepted".
This meaning that the rest materials are ok? no of course.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:13 am

Kostas, as far as I know, the homologation was always in hands of FISTF Sports Directors. I am sure we had after Willy Hofmann only three persons in that position: De Angelis, Peré and Eder.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:30 am

I homologated three types of keepers, the rest of about 20 or 25 have already been homologated when I was elected.
As I told you before the problem is and was, that the producers think, if one type of keeper is homologated and they make a small change they don't need to send it again, so many different types of keepers were produced and FISTF lost the overview. In general we have about 4 or 5 different keepers, the rest is a type of one of those 4 or 5 different keepers.
The goalkeeper rules need to be modified (the bent rod for an example or the length of the rod) need to be rewritten and the volume needs to be replaced by another measure because it is not easy to control that. I know that should be done by me and it took too much time, i take the blame for that, anyway I'm aware of it that a change is needed.
With the solution of one keeper, the rules need only to be modified to match with the keeper and that's the solution of the new board and most associations represented in Frankfurt agreed on that.

Heinz

Thossa wrote:Kostas, as far as I know, the homologation was always in hands of FISTF Sports Directors. I am sure we had after Willy Hofmann only three persons in that position: De Angelis, Peré and Eder.

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Tue May 11, 2010 8:23 am

In Stembert I talked with Extreme Works about the "New Plastic Goalkeepers". They don´t find positive words about it. Au contraire, but Claudio Dogali showed me something special: a solid metal mask, based on the idea of George Drazinakis, to check both types of current used goalkeepers (Toccer & FISTF Figure).

Quick we checked three keepers next to us.
Two out of three were illegal because to large. Exclamation

Claudio told me he could spread those masks for free (probably as a freebie from his company).

If the "New Plastik Goalkeepers" (that we don´t know, that we don´t have seen yet), will be no good in the eyes of the majority of players and they will fail at the next congress, we have good news by Extreme Works to solve the problems with the illegal goalkeepers easily by an alternative way.

Of course I still hope we will get very soon information by parts of the "provisional BoD" about the development in case of the "New Plastics", because I am confident, we players want to know very quick, if the new ones are playable, resp. solid enough.

Even when I will probably be blamed again as "words, words, words"-critics, which should better solve the problems in the worst association of the world, then to waste my time in this forum, because I could better use my time to find new players... why is the "provisional BoD" doing the 2nd step before the 1st? Normaly you have to produce some prototypes to show them to parts of the community and if positive critics confirms the "New plastic goalkeeper" it is easily to launch. Now we have the situation: the fur of the bear is sold, before the bear is killed.

I mean, who creates that idea, to set deadline for the introduction of the "New Plastic Goalkeeper" without confirmation of capability? This is simply clumpsy!

Forgive me, but I am curious: What will FISTF do, when already thousands of new plastics are produced and we find out all of them are rubbish?
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Tue May 11, 2010 8:27 am

Thossa wrote:In Stembert I talked with Extreme Works about the "New Plastic Goalkeepers". They don´t find positive words about it. Au contraire, but Claudio Dogali showed me something special: a solid metal mask, based on the idea of George Drazinakis, to check both types of current used goalkeepers (Toccer & FISTF Figure).

Quick we checked three keepers next to us.
Two out of three were illegal because to large. Exclamation

Claudio told me he could spread those masks for free (probably as a freebie from his company).

If the "New Plastik Goalkeepers" (that we don´t know, that we don´t have seen yet), will be no good in the eyes of the majority of players and they will fail at the next congress, we have good news by Extreme Works to solve the problems with the illegal goalkeepers easily by an alternative way.

Of course I still hope we will get very soon information by parts of the "provisional BoD" about the development in case of the "New Plastics", because I am confident, we players want to know very quick, if the new ones are playable, resp. solid enough.

Even when I will probably be blamed again as "words, words, words"-critics, which should better solve the problems in the worst association of the world, then to waste my time in this forum, because I could better use my time to find new players... why is the "provisional BoD" doing the 2nd step before the 1st? Normaly you have to produce some prototypes to show them to parts of the community and if positive critics confirms the "New plastic goalkeeper" it is easily to launch. Now we have the situation: the fur of the bear is sold, before the bear is killed.

I mean, who creates that idea, to set deadline for the introduction of the "New Plastic Goalkeeper" without confirmation of capability? This is simply clumpsy!

Forgive me, but I am curious: What will FISTF do, when already thousands of new plastics are produced and we find out all of them are rubbish?
I agree!
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Tue May 11, 2010 10:31 am

two simple questions:

1) presented by Claudio Dogali tool measures the volume of the soccer goalkeeper? (Heigth x width x leinght)

2) Because the provisional Board must present a prototype to the players? To players? For those who like us? I would not normally be submitted to the appropriate associations or the Congress?

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Tue May 11, 2010 10:41 am

A basic rules is that any sportsman must have some choice for material to play. If you play football, you are free to use Puma shoes or Adidas or Reebok or whatever.

For the figures, players are free to use bases they want, not only brands (Astrobase, ProfiBase, Subbuteo,...) but also types (C5, B8,...) and having only one type of goalkeepers is against all rules of ethics as it will prevent players to have a choice. Sorry but if we don't like the new "compulsory" goalkeeper because it's too fragile or too soft or too expensive, players must have alternative solutions.

That's one of the resons why I think the plastic sports figure keeper must remain a possibility for play. As long as players don't cheat with glue to make it higher, it's a good alternative solution for those who don't like "toccer-like" keepers.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Tue May 11, 2010 10:53 am

Piero,

please tell us:

1) The name of the company who will produce the "New plastic goalkeepers"?
2) When will prototypes be available to make sure all doubts are unwarranted?

Thanks in advance
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Tue May 11, 2010 11:39 am

I will take you back in time.
Kechris asked a question about a certain type of keeper already used . I understood that the question intented to bring up the issue of an illegal keeper used for the past many years, since this keeper's 3rd dimension is waaaaaaay above the allowed spec.

I see that Thossa and VC asking questions about the new plastic keeper and they have very sound arguments indeed, but to be fair, VC did nothing at his time (Drazinakis had already suggested his solution at least 1 year ago) to prevent illegal keepers from being used.

Therefore, I suggest that everyone does his own resrospect before starting critisising others, because to be frank, this way the conversation is getting us nowhere.

The new solution is full of buts and ifs and hows , but at least it is a solution to the problem. Of course the new keeper could be produced by more than one company , there should be a mask for this keeper as well, players or officials should be asked. I do not argue with this, but really, what did the previous board suggest as a solution to the issue? What does it suggest now , that they couldn't have done themselves before? and why couldn't they?

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Tue May 11, 2010 12:00 pm

Panagios,
I confirm the former BoD wasn´t able to solve the goalkeeper problem. So, end of this discussion. That brings us not forward. Now FISTF is in a new position. Right? It is absolutely allowed to ask questions about the future of our hobby. regardless whether raise the questions. Not more, not less.
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Tue May 11, 2010 12:26 pm

I believe that I already said that the questions are sound. Do not get defensive. I do not takes sides in this argument. I am only suggesting that everyone should calm down and try to be constructive. I already noted that the new plastic keeper issue is not presented in an orderly fashion and leaves many things to be desired and clarified.

It is just ridiculous how only a handful of people cannot communicate. I have read many personnal insults and much more than this, national insults. This must stop at once. The game is beautiful and should have thousands of members around the world. Instead, grown ups are bitching each other and drive everyone out of table football.

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue May 11, 2010 12:30 pm

The old board wasn't able to find a solution, that's right, but the problem haven't been the ideas to solve the problem. The main problem was to find an agreement.
We had already a prototype of a keeper in Amsterdam, it was made of metal in one piece (no problem with the link of rod and figure any more), but the price was not ok, and there was the opinion in the old board that we would have problems with the distribution. If the old board would sell the keepers to the companies, the price would get too high and to distribute on our own, was in the situation of the previous board not possible too.
We already had patterns to control the actual keepers too. Of course we have to admit that we waited too long to start working on a solution of the problem. Anyway it shouldn't be a problem to discuss about those things being a previous board member.

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  drastis on Tue May 11, 2010 1:26 pm

Let me say it again: This discussion is needless!

The problem is that some goalkeepers are larger than they should be. So, the right thing to do is to use a tool to check goalkeepers' dimensions. In every sport where equipment is used (football, basketball, ice hockey, baseball, name a sport!!), there are rules that define the dimensions and the weight and equipment is checked against rules. So simple!!

Imagine FIBA allowing onle one basket for playing basketball, because in some indoor halls the diameter of the baskets is larger that allowed!!! Or FIFA selling their own goalposts because in some grounds the goalposts are not wide enough!!!

I can only laugh!

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Tue May 11, 2010 3:59 pm

The responsibility of the current situation is of FISTF has not controlled the measures were correct.

The Adidas shoes has nothing to do with a technical tool. Our shoes are the bases that are different and always will be

In many sports approves a single type of material to prevent tampering.

There are also "monopoly" point, as in the balls (in the NBA, the FIFA World Cup in volleyball etc. ..)

To Thoss,

answered with a trick question ...... that older.

1) do not know. I have done the preliminary study but now she is following the theme is Laurent Garnier report to board at the end of May.

2) probably during the summer. I can not understand why, but you assume that we have to show you ...... you're an engineer with experience in plastic?

There are many people we contacted experts in the sector, among which is, incidentally, Dogali, to which request an opinion.

At the next World Cup, however, we could do one thing, the Spanish team could be presented with a Playmobil mounted on a pole.... Want to see who tells us that can not be used why not approved ..

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Tue May 11, 2010 4:28 pm

How can make it understandable for you?

I would love to see Total Soccer in the shops all over the world. That would be a great help for us all and you could grown to a be rich men. The quality of the Total Soccer is good enough for weak players.

But no top-player in FISTF circuit plays for cause Total Soccer equipment on tournaments.

Why should players like Eric Verhagen trust in your engineers?
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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue May 11, 2010 4:47 pm

In my opinion there there different ways.
If the FISTF Board wants to involve players, like it is proposed in the rule's question, there should be only a group of players who can have a look on the prototype. They could give some constructive feedback.
The most important instance for a board should be the board of a national association, so the prototype of keeper could be shown to associations to ask for their feedback, because the associations are those who have to vote so they should also be asked for the feedback. So the second way could be to send only to the associations when the prototype is ready.
The third way could be a mixture of both above mentioned ways.
In Frankfurt the decision was to develop one type of keeper, the proposal was a plastic keeper, because of several reasons. Of course we are not professionals in the production of goalkeepers, but the players have to use them.
In my opinion the discussion shouldn't be only negative (critizise is one of the bad words in my opinion it should only be understood as feedback), it is always better to include some more people than too less people. more opinions can help to get some feedback about weak points of the new keeper and maybe some things can be improved already before sending it to all players. It costs a lot of money to send keepers for free, so the goal should be to start with good quality. I think that's all.
Personally I was in favour of metal keepers, of course they are more expensive, but maybe the board should also consider this and also give the choice between a metal and a plastic keeper, but in general I agree on it to have only 1 type of keeper, but made of 2 different kinds of material. For the rules that shouldn't be a problem, because the only difference between metal and plastic should be the weight.

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Tue May 11, 2010 5:12 pm

Thoss but you speak of? What does this conversation with the Total Soccer?.

Think the history of the goalkeeper has been made to manufacture it with Total Soccer? Do you know 1 +1? Well you just calculated as 10 000 earns selling soccer goalkeepers.

According to you I need to be manager of a federation of 2,000 players to sell a product that has sold only 125 000 cases for the World?

Why not say that 125 000 cases in this official FIFA license back is the logo of the FISTF?

I'm tired of being offended.

Why Fistf Verhagen have to ask? as your global federations ask Federer, Woods, Contador, when you have to change their rules? When the goalkeeper has approved Dogali Verhagen you asked?

He begins to give answers to why we reached this situation instead of continuing bad putting and offending.

The offense systematic denotes only the lack of arguments.

It lacks the respect of people listening in this forum FISTF arguments.

Here ends my contribution.

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Re: New plastic goalkeeper

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