Official candidates in Madrid

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Admin on Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:35 pm

Belgium will be represented in Madrid my Titi Giaux and a spanish lawyer who will make sure rules are followed.
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:38 pm

Papakonstantinou can't represent Argentina, it is not allowed.
Of course he can say the argentinian opinion, but he can't vote in the name of Argentina.

kechris wrote:Ι receive a mail by Alan Collins.
Now i think that now he support Silvio.
Also i informed that Argentina will have for represantive the Papakonstantinou !
In Rain i think that Italy was represantive for Argentina.
So Malta and Italy prefer illegal Koutroumanos than legal Greek represantive.
I am wait to hear Capponi's opinion for Spain.
I shame for FISTF. I made a bet for split.

All the greek players are against Koutroumanos-Papakonstantinou. The greek courts decided 2 times that they are illegal elected. I am waiting to see who will support the ILLEGALS?

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  thetruth on Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:55 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Of course he can say the argentinian opinion

In what language??? Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  kechris on Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:04 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Papakonstantinou can't represent Argentina, it is not allowed.
Of course he can say the argentinian opinion, but he can't vote in the name of Argentina.

Why Heinz?
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Thossa on Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:56 pm

kechris wrote:Ι receive a mail by Alan Collins.
Now i think that now he support Silvio.

What makes you think that, Kostas?
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Janus_Gersie on Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:22 pm

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Papakonstantinou can't represent Argentina, it is not allowed.
Of course he can say the argentinian opinion, but he can't vote in the name of Argentina.

Why Heinz?


Of course he can. The statutes only say that NO delegate shall represent more than one member association. As long as he is no delegate for Greece, he can represent ONE country as long as he has the written permission by a member association. He needs the permission because he is from Hellas and not from Argentina.


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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  drastis on Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:31 am

Janus is right. What is the meaning of delegation if a country cannot be represented by a person who is there? To arrange such delegations is pretty normal and fair, as long as there is written consent on the part of the represented.

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:45 am

drastis wrote:Janus is right. What is the meaning of delegation if a country cannot be represented by a person who is there? To arrange such delegations is pretty normal and fair, as long as there is written consent on the part of the represented.

Yes, he is right...
But I'm a bit surprised about this possibility. Shouldn't the delegate of an association be a member of the association he represents? That would sound far more reasonable to me...
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  alex popoff on Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:06 am

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
drastis wrote:Janus is right. What is the meaning of delegation if a country cannot be represented by a person who is there? To arrange such delegations is pretty normal and fair, as long as there is written consent on the part of the represented.

Yes, he is right...
But I'm a bit surprised about this possibility. Shouldn't the delegate of an association be a member of the association he represents? That would sound far more reasonable to me...

Yes, he must be member and also the only official representative of his country during the vote ceremony !
He has the right to vote for his country (1 vote as "Member") and if an other country gives him the delegation to represent it, he can vote once again (1 vote as "delegate").

An other point which is important depending the General Rules of Associations 1901 :
Every member *(a country in our case) has the right to vote, and it's to the organisator of the elections to put the maximum of solutions for that ! That means that the electronical vote by mail must exist and also the possibility of delegation !

*Normally you are a member only if you have paid your annual fee !
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  mikeburns on Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:42 am

Are Partner nations allowed to vote in these elections?

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:25 am

I want to see the statutes of the national association where it is written down that anybody from anywhere can represent the national association. (I don't think we will find one country with such statutes).
FISTF should also have a look on the statutes of the national associations.
Even if it is possibly allowed by FISTF statutes, who has a look on it if the board of the association respects the statutes of the national association?
I don't see the need that somebody from Greece or any other country has to raise the hand for a country without a delegate, they have the possibility to send their vote by post, I even would allow a mail with digital signature.
Please tell me how somebody from Greece can represent the association of argentina in any discussion? Nobody can know what way the discussion will take in advance.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Papakonstantinou can't represent Argentina, it is not allowed.
Of course he can say the argentinian opinion, but he can't vote in the name of Argentina.

Why Heinz?


Of course he can. The statutes only say that NO delegate shall represent more than one member association. As long as he is no delegate for Greece, he can represent ONE country as long as he has the written permission by a member association. He needs the permission because he is from Hellas and not from Argentina.


Janus

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:46 pm

mikeburns wrote:Are Partner nations allowed to vote in these elections?

Why do you ask ? Scotland is still a member nation ... even if Silvio "downgraded" Scotland. This has no legal power because due to the statutes only the congress can downgrade an association. Please read this paragraph of the statutes in another topic of this forum where I posted the statutes.

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:50 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:I want to see the statutes of the national association where it is written down that anybody from anywhere can represent the national association. (I don't think we will find one country with such statutes).
FISTF should also have a look on the statutes of the national associations.
Even if it is possibly allowed by FISTF statutes, who has a look on it if the board of the association respects the statutes of the national association?
I don't see the need that somebody from Greece or any other country has to raise the hand for a country without a delegate, they have the possibility to send their vote by post, I even would allow a mail with digital signature.
Please tell me how somebody from Greece can represent the association of argentina in any discussion? Nobody can know what way the discussion will take in advance.

Heinz, morally and ethically spoken I totally agree with. But if we look at the written words of the statutes I can't find a passus to avoid it. And: in dubio pro reo .... even if I don't like it.

But on the other side it could become interesting if more associations would show up represented by somebody else than their official representative. Could also work in the other direction ... means could also work against Silvio .... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:57 pm

alex popoff wrote:Yes, he must be member and also the only official representative of his country during the vote ceremony !


That's not good for Argentina ... but maybe also not good for other associations ...

alex popoff wrote:He has the right to vote for his country (1 vote as "Member") and if an other country gives him the delegation to represent it, he can vote once again (1 vote as "delegate").

This contradicts the FISTF statutes which tell that NO delegate shall represent more than one country. And as I read the statutes we don't have a difference between "member" and "delegate".

alex popoff wrote:An other point which is important depending the General Rules of Associations 1901 :
Every member *(a country in our case) has the right to vote, and it's to the organisator of the elections to put the maximum of solutions for that ! That means that the electronical vote by mail must exist and also the possibility of delegation !

That's the best way ... each and every association should ask and demand this possibility !

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:19 pm

My post has nothing to do with FISTF statutes. I know that they generally allow that, but if the national statutes don't allow somebody who is not in the national board or even isn't member of the association to represent the association in legal elections, the statutes of FISTF are not important anymore.
Then the person, who sign a paper, which allows a foreign person to vote, break national statutes (maybe).
Generally that way of voting should be stopped in the future, associations can send votes by mail or letter, they don't need somebody with different nationality to raise hand.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Heinz, morally and ethically spoken I totally agree with. But if we look at the written words of the statutes I can't find a passus to avoid it. And: in dubio pro reo .... even if I don't like it.

But on the other side it could become interesting if more associations would show up represented by somebody else than their official representative. Could also work in the other direction ... means could also work against Silvio .... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Thossa on Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:43 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Generally that way of voting should be stopped in the future, associations can send votes by mail or letter, they don't need somebody with different nationality to raise hand.

Absolutely correct!

BTW: Can anybody publish doubtless, according to the minutes of the last congresses, what the correct list of nations is? This can be helpful for all... especially in Madrid
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  alex popoff on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:24 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:I want to see the statutes of the national association where it is written down that anybody from anywhere can represent the national association. (I don't think we will find one country with such statutes).
FISTF should also have a look on the statutes of the national associations.
Even if it is possibly allowed by FISTF statutes, who has a look on it if the board of the association respects the statutes of the national association?
I don't see the need that somebody from Greece or any other country has to raise the hand for a country without a delegate, they have the possibility to send their vote by post, I even would allow a mail with digital signature.
Please tell me how somebody from Greece can represent the association of argentina in any discussion? Nobody can know what way the discussion will take in advance.

Janus_Gersie wrote:
kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Papakonstantinou can't represent Argentina, it is not allowed.
Of course he can say the argentinian opinion, but he can't vote in the name of Argentina.

Why Heinz?


Of course he can. The statutes only say that NO delegate shall represent more than one member association. As long as he is no delegate for Greece, he can represent ONE country as long as he has the written permission by a member association. He needs the permission because he is from Hellas and not from Argentina.


Janus

Greece can vote for Argentina only if :
- The official (and only one) person who represent Greece in all the voting ceremony, has also received by the Argentina Federation the right to become his official delegate.
- Argentina has paid his annual fee as "Member" nation for 2010-2011
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  alex popoff on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:29 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:
mikeburns wrote:Are Partner nations allowed to vote in these elections?

Why do you ask ? Scotland is still a member nation ... even if Silvio "downgraded" Scotland. This has no legal power because due to the statutes only the congress can downgrade an association. Please read this paragraph of the statutes in another topic of this forum where I posted the statutes.

Janus


It's important that you have paid to FISTF your annual fee as Member Nation before the elections !
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  alex popoff on Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:07 pm

alex popoff wrote:He has the right to vote for his country (1 vote as "Member") and if an other country gives him the delegation to represent it, he can vote once again (1 vote as "delegate").

Janus wrote:
[This contradicts the FISTF statutes which tell that NO delegate shall represent more than one country. And as I read the statutes we don't have a difference between "member" and "delegate"

I think at the beggining (1994) it was a problem of "translation" ... and in the haste, names and roles were not well explained.
And as many persons noticed in this forum, some articles are very strange and I can confirm you that they are ! They don't respect the general spirit of French law wich is based on democratie.
Anyway, an official member can vote first for him and after for an other one (a mandate is obligatory : letter, mail ...)
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  alex popoff on Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:24 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
Generally that way of voting should be stopped in the future, associations can send votes by mail or letter, they don't need somebody with different nationality to raise hand.


We have a confusion here because we talk about a person which is not the official representative of his country (if I understood well Smile )
But in all associative (and democrative) elections another person (official member) can represent you with your agreement !

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:02 pm

alex popoff wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
Generally that way of voting should be stopped in the future, associations can send votes by mail or letter, they don't need somebody with different nationality to raise hand.


We have a confusion here because we talk about a person which is not the official representative of his country (if I understood well Smile )
But in all associative (and democrative) elections another person (official member) can represent you with your agreement !


Sorry Alex to bother you with a stupid question: I (being the official German representative) could also be delegate of Greece (considering they paid their membership fee and I got the official written order by them to vote for them) ?
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:00 am

The statute doesn't say that the delegate must be a person of the same Country and French law doesn't prohibit to an associate to have as representatives foreign persons.
Furthermore, the statute prohibit to a delegate to be delegated by two members.
It seems therefore clear that any Member can delegate anybody according to it's internal statute and governance (decision of the internal BoD?) and that this delegate cannot vote also for another national association.
Reading the statute of FISTF I can share the concern of who think it is too soft and doesn't prevent litigations.
In my opinion it depend from the circumstance that it was created according to CIO rules, with the hope to be, before or later, federated as (for instance) FIFA.
The big mistake is that those kind of statutes have a system for solving conflicts that consist in going to the above federation to mediate. In our case we don't have any above federation and the solution of going into court is not efficient.
The statute, however, is simple and maybe old (as it not permit the use of electronic vote or meetings) but yet democratic (to limit the chance of delegation only to people of the nationality of the member woud notl have been so).
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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:40 am

Alex, I don't think like that sorry.
I can only talk about the austrian example, I don't know the situation in other countries, but in Austria the association is registered and in the registry the names of the board members are listed.
If I call the austrian authority to make any change or want to ask them about any problems, they tell me that I'm not allowed to speak in the name of the association and they won't give me any additional information.
In my opinion the same should be valid for FISTF, at least the representant should be member of the association he represents, but then FISTF has to ask all its members to overtake that passus in their national statutes too. Every World or Continental federation has a set of statutes and they have to be implemented in the statutes of all its members before they are accepted as member. FISTF should go the same way, so there would be less problems, because then FISTF knows that rules are in all countries the same.
I also don't agree on your words that all associations who pay should be allowed to vote. In combination with your view on things that associations can be represented by an external this is very dangerous don't you think?
Somebody pays 200 EUR for 2 associations, where he knows people, they send him a letter that he can represent those associations and then he has 3 votes for what(who) ever?
In my opinion (and I also think that the statutes are written like that) it is not enough only to pay 100 EUR.
I agree with you that those associations which were members of FISTF at the last Congress are still member as long as they paid or pay the membership fee or they didn't withdraw officially their membership. If there are associations which were not and pay now 100 EUR they can only be provisional member and those members don't have a vote at a congress.

Only my opinion.


alex popoff wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
Generally that way of voting should be stopped in the future, associations can send votes by mail or letter, they don't need somebody with different nationality to raise hand.


We have a confusion here because we talk about a person which is not the official representative of his country (if I understood well Smile )
But in all associative (and democrative) elections another person (official member) can represent you with your agreement !


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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  drastis on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:41 am

giufaz wrote:The statute doesn't say that the delegate must be a person of the same Country and French law doesn't prohibit to an associate to have as representatives foreign persons.
Furthermore, the statute prohibit to a delegate to be delegated by two members.
It seems therefore clear that any Member can delegate anybody according to it's internal statute and governance (decision of the internal BoD?) and that this delegate cannot vote also for another national association.
Reading the statute of FISTF I can share the concern of who think it is too soft and doesn't prevent litigations.
In my opinion it depend from the circumstance that it was created according to CIO rules, with the hope to be, before or later, federated as (for instance) FIFA.
The big mistake is that those kind of statutes have a system for solving conflicts that consist in going to the above federation to mediate. In our case we don't have any above federation and the solution of going into court is not efficient.
The statute, however, is simple and maybe old (as it not permit the use of electronic vote or meetings) but yet democratic (to limit the chance of delegation only to people of the nationality of the member woud notl have been so).
Best

I totally agree with Giufaz (thanks once again!!)

So, in short Papakonstantinou can certainly vote for Argentina if he has the papers that prove he truly represents them. All the same, Greece can be represented by any person who is there, as long as that person has an official delegation signed by PATFAP BoD members, no matter if that person is a member of PATFAP or even a foreigner.

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Re: Official candidates in Madrid

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:44 am

of course you are right, but who can say if the national statutes allow that?

giufaz wrote:The statute doesn't say that the delegate must be a person of the same Country and French law doesn't prohibit to an associate to have as representatives foreign persons.
Furthermore, the statute prohibit to a delegate to be delegated by two members.
It seems therefore clear that any Member can delegate anybody according to it's internal statute and governance (decision of the internal BoD?) and that this delegate cannot vote also for another national association.
Reading the statute of FISTF I can share the concern of who think it is too soft and doesn't prevent litigations.
In my opinion it depend from the circumstance that it was created according to CIO rules, with the hope to be, before or later, federated as (for instance) FIFA.
The big mistake is that those kind of statutes have a system for solving conflicts that consist in going to the above federation to mediate. In our case we don't have any above federation and the solution of going into court is not efficient.
The statute, however, is simple and maybe old (as it not permit the use of electronic vote or meetings) but yet democratic (to limit the chance of delegation only to people of the nationality of the member woud notl have been so).
Best

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