North and South. Former and new Bod

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North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  The Rock on Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:37 am

First of all this situation is ridiculus. We have a president that destroyed everything good that was left and he doesn't want to leave the chair. 2000 players are watcing someone ,whom 3 years ago noone knew, killing the sport and doing nothing. The good news is that he is finished. The bad that we haven't learn from our mistakes. For me the old board made the same things that is accusing now. They don't like the fact that most of the bod members are south. [and i don't like that old bod had 3 merbers of germany , a country of 40 active players!]. They don't like that new south bod gave to hellas (of 150 active players) a major. [and i don't like austria of 50 players and holland of 40 players to have a major only because are near to their place] The same for world and europa cups. The new bod was left with 2-3 people and died. The old one was working only with 5 because it was more convinient. It was vincent's fault that triantafillou was a failure, because he put him in a position that he could't help at all. When vincent realized this fact, he didn't reassigned him but with a style like catania , he didn't let him to vote for anything and he didn't asked him for anything.
For the future: For sure we need some new names.
I personally believed in stefano, but maybe his choice of partners was wrong. I would like to see him to step forward and be the new president. And not to hide behind others like catania. If he would like to be the sport director with his team it is ok with me. But with him in charge. Names like eder who had failed in their past fistf job are wrong. Writting in forums is not enough. For communication vincent and his possible partners is the best solution. In this point i must say that i totally agree with vincent that players care for rankinks, callendar, site etc and not so much for unproven marketing. As i wrote before for sports department stefano and his team, or olivie and his team are the best solutions. For me the other places are not so important , so it is a good idea to have new fresh faces in order for them to help and gain experience.
To finish my thoughts , i don't like people who try to gain money from t.f. I don't like them even to try to select a board that they like , especially when their experience of the game is 2-3 years.
A piece of advice to the intelligent and nice guy vesa: try to lern as much as you can for the history of the game and for the players and their characters. There are many people that do care and could offer a lot to the sport , even if they don't write in forums.
My proposal is to have 2 commitees (unofficial) in order to help the new bod in every possible way.
First a top players commitee with names like giuliannini, bertelli, de haas, loureiro, verhagen , good players, who are interested for the game and nice guys.
Second a senate commitee with names like martinez, granados, stolwick etc
All of the above were only my opinion. An opinion of a player that is 34 years old and plays official t.f for 23 years and travels abroad for w.c and tournaments for 16 years.
The thing is that all of us that we are writing here, we want the best for our hobby-sport. Let's find the best way to do it. Try to forget the north south thing. We have more things to unite us , than to split us.
Sorry for my english in advance.
GIORGOS KOUTIS
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  panagios on Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:10 am

thumbs up.

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:10 am

I've already wrote here about FISTF needs new names. I want to choose no names. We don't need nice guys only because we symphatize with them or they are good players. I have no doubt they like the game as I do.
We need qualified people, specially those who are not top players or they don't play often in international competitions.
We need people with a strong will, with free time to give to our sport, without any personal interested except to help FISTF to recover first and put it in the right way.
We need people with real and credible programs for FISTF and this does not mean write a lot in this forum.
I know there are those people. They are just waiting for the right moment to show up.
Let's hope they don't forget we only have 4 weeks before the EGM.
I'm here to help them and help FISTF also.

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Thossa on Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:30 pm

The Rock wrote:[and i don't like that old bod had 3 merbers of germany , a country of 40 active players!].

Two, okay (Fred and me) but who is the third one?
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:53 pm

Hi Giorgos,
I only want to comment the part with the Major.
It is wrong that people were against a Major in Greece, please let's try to stay on facts.
The problem with the Major only was that it was requested too late to confirm it for the season 2010/2011.
The right way of acting would have been to request the Major in february or march 2010, then the sports department would need to analyze if it is possible. In that case the sports department would see that a 5th major is not possible acutally, so there are 3 ways to solve the problem.

1. Cancel 1 existing Major to give Greece the Major
2. Change the handbook to make possible a fifth major
3. Tell the greek association (which normally shouldn't even request a Major) that the sports department doesn't agree on it to give a Major to Greece

If the decision would have been point 3, you could complain here that responsible people didn't want a Major in Greece, but in the end it was a formal mistake by the person who requested the Major, and the board did the mistake to decide about that when there was no sports director active.
That's the reason why people complain about it, not because they think the greek players don't deserve a Major in Greece.
We all play with the same rules on the table, but in cases like that nobody wants to care about rules, that's a big problem in my opinion.

The Rock wrote:First of all this situation is ridiculus. We have a president that destroyed everything good that was left and he doesn't want to leave the chair. 2000 players are watcing someone ,whom 3 years ago noone knew, killing the sport and doing nothing. The good news is that he is finished. The bad that we haven't learn from our mistakes. For me the old board made the same things that is accusing now. They don't like the fact that most of the bod members are south. [and i don't like that old bod had 3 merbers of germany , a country of 40 active players!]. They don't like that new south bod gave to hellas (of 150 active players) a major. [and i don't like austria of 50 players and holland of 40 players to have a major only because are near to their place] The same for world and europa cups. The new bod was left with 2-3 people and died. The old one was working only with 5 because it was more convinient. It was vincent's fault that triantafillou was a failure, because he put him in a position that he could't help at all. When vincent realized this fact, he didn't reassigned him but with a style like catania , he didn't let him to vote for anything and he didn't asked him for anything.
For the future: For sure we need some new names.
I personally believed in stefano, but maybe his choice of partners was wrong. I would like to see him to step forward and be the new president. And not to hide behind others like catania. If he would like to be the sport director with his team it is ok with me. But with him in charge. Names like eder who had failed in their past fistf job are wrong. Writting in forums is not enough. For communication vincent and his possible partners is the best solution. In this point i must say that i totally agree with vincent that players care for rankinks, callendar, site etc and not so much for unproven marketing. As i wrote before for sports department stefano and his team, or olivie and his team are the best solutions. For me the other places are not so important , so it is a good idea to have new fresh faces in order for them to help and gain experience.
To finish my thoughts , i don't like people who try to gain money from t.f. I don't like them even to try to select a board that they like , especially when their experience of the game is 2-3 years.
A piece of advice to the intelligent and nice guy vesa: try to lern as much as you can for the history of the game and for the players and their characters. There are many people that do care and could offer a lot to the sport , even if they don't write in forums.
My proposal is to have 2 commitees (unofficial) in order to help the new bod in every possible way.
First a top players commitee with names like giuliannini, bertelli, de haas, loureiro, verhagen , good players, who are interested for the game and nice guys.
Second a senate commitee with names like martinez, granados, stolwick etc
All of the above were only my opinion. An opinion of a player that is 34 years old and plays official t.f for 23 years and travels abroad for w.c and tournaments for 16 years.
The thing is that all of us that we are writing here, we want the best for our hobby-sport. Let's find the best way to do it. Try to forget the north south thing. We have more things to unite us , than to split us.
Sorry for my english in advance.
GIORGOS KOUTIS

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  kechris on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:37 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
3. Tell the greek association (which normally shouldn't even request a Major) that the sports department doesn't agree on it to give a Major to Greece

who is the sport department?
and he agree for the other majors?
i remember! you were the ex-sport director and you gave the majors.
(amsterdam few hours away from mons and bologna few hours away from mattesburg)

maybe the new BoD needs one person from the six great table soccer countries. And Greece is between this six countries.

p.s Heinz we want to hear reasons no decisions (sport department decide no 5th major in Greece)
Heinz Eder wrote:
2. Change the handbook to make possible a fifth major
Which handbook? we haven't handbook calendar ranking and you have problem with Greek major?
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:08 am

Kostas, please read one time all words of my post.
There are mentioned the reasons why the Major in Greece is not valid in my opinion and in many others opinion.
What do you mean by Who is the sports department? In that actual case it was a sport's commission and the sports director. Question

We have 4 Majors on the circuit actually, so if somebody else wants a Major he has to request it in time before the preparations of the calender for the following season start, I hope that's clear for you. That didn't happen as far as I know, because I helped Stefano to prepare the calender for the actual season.
The Major came into the calender after Stefano resigned and I overhanded all the things I've done. That was at the beginning of september (!!).
I didn't give the Majors when I was sports director, it was a decision by the board who should get a Major. Everybody is free to apply for a Major, it is not depending on the national association, because a Major has to be requested by an organization team and not a national association.

One more time you mix things and as it seems it has system that you want to make people think the boards (whoever is in it) are doing everything on purpose and their own benefit, I can't hear that anymore. If you think it is such powerful thing to be on a FISTF Board I must tell you that you are very wrong. The Major in Amsterdam was a result after the failure of the London Major. We wanted a city easy and cheap to reach, so London was a good choice we had a request from Eric Verhagen and Nicky Chappel that they would organize a Major directly at the airport. Unfortunately they had to cancel their plans, so we asked for another place for a fourth Major. It was not like you want to make people here believing that we asked the dutch guys to organize a Major. Everybody was informed by newsletter and letter to associations that the board was looking for a place for a fourth major. One more time nobody from Greece for an example applied, the only one who applied were the guys from Amsterdam, so they got the 4th Major.
Only to clearify another thing you seem to forget, I neither gave the Major of Mattersburg, nor the Major of Bologna, nor the Major of Mons, only to keep things clear.

In case of the handbook for me the last published version is the actually valid one.

I have a problem with greek Major? Somebody, who even don't seem to know that Austria is not a part of Germany, opened the thread and asked why people are complaining about the Major in Greece. I tried to explain my view, why I think it was not proper. Read all posts before you pick out only a small piece and start your tour against all previous boards again.

kechris wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
3. Tell the greek association (which normally shouldn't even request a Major) that the sports department doesn't agree on it to give a Major to Greece

who is the sport department?
and he agree for the other majors?
i remember! you were the ex-sport director and you gave the majors.
(amsterdam few hours away from mons and bologna few hours away from mattesburg)

maybe the new BoD needs one person from the six great table soccer countries. And Greece is between this six countries.

p.s Heinz we want to hear reasons no decisions (sport department decide no 5th major in Greece)
Heinz Eder wrote:
2. Change the handbook to make possible a fifth major
Which handbook? we haven't handbook calendar ranking and you have problem with Greek major?

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  The Rock on Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:57 am

[quote="Heinz Eder"] Somebody, who even don't seem to know that Austria is not a part of Germany, opened the thread and asked why people are complaining about the Major in Greece.

If you want to start personal insults it is ok with me. One more word like the above and i am ready to answer in the same and maybe a worst way. I made a mistake for the 3 germans. [At the disciplinary board again one german and one austrian were in charge. Like it or not the south countries are not invisible and wanted to be equal part of the boards] The point was that allmost all of you were central europeans and your decisions helped central europe's countries. Exactly the same did catania board. I wrote a lot of interesting things but you only answered about the major. Anyway i think that now is the time to learn from the south-north mistakes and have a proper and fair fistf for all.
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  panagios on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:00 pm

Heinz, I believe Giorgos is right.
You did what you accuse Kostas for. You chose to comment on a mistake and bypassed everything else. I believe that Giorgos' post had a lot of good points.

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:12 pm

The disciplinary council needs to be organized in a new way too. The problem is that there is nothing written down how the members of the CoN are decided.
In my opinion they don't need to be elected at the Congress, but the CoN could do that job to ask for applications and then take a decision with majority in the CoN.

What decisions helped the central european countries?
One more time, when did Greece apply for a Major?
Didn't Greece get a big event every time when they applied?

You forgot people like Luis, Zach, Kostas, Chris, Piero, Silvio who were part of the previous board too. So to say, we didn't look for people from there is absolutely wrong. It is your right to say that you prefer Stefano as president, of course some will agree with you others not, so I think it doesn't make sense to discuss about that now. You are also right to say that I failed in your opinion, I only think it is not fair to say only in general that I failed without any concrete arguments that I have any chance to argument or defend myself, but it is ok.

I'm one more time sorry, but it is really hard, if people can write something which is only particullary true and it is much harder to correct things than to write to write something like Giorgos wrote and people believe in that.

My plan would be to give an own commission to a number of players which should be part of the sports commission, that could work well together with the rules commission which is lead by a member of the sports commission.

PS: there wasn't an austrian on the FISTF Board when Matersburg got the Major.

[quote="The Rock"]
Heinz Eder wrote: Somebody, who even don't seem to know that Austria is not a part of Germany, opened the thread and asked why people are complaining about the Major in Greece.

If you want to start personal insults it is ok with me. One more word like the above and i am ready to answer in the same and maybe a worst way. I made a mistake for the 3 germans. [At the disciplinary board again one german and one austrian were in charge. Like it or not the south countries are not invisible and wanted to be equal part of the boards] The point was that allmost all of you were central europeans and your decisions helped central europe's countries. Exactly the same did catania board. I wrote a lot of interesting things but you only answered about the major. Anyway i think that now is the time to learn from the south-north mistakes and have a proper and fair fistf for all.


Last edited by Heinz Eder on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Thossa on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:15 pm

[quote="The Rock"]
Heinz Eder wrote: Somebody, who even don't seem to know that Austria is not a part of Germany, opened the thread and asked why people are complaining about the Major in Greece.

If you want to start personal insults it is ok with me. One more word like the above and i am ready to answer in the same and maybe a worst way. I made a mistake for the 3 germans. [At the disciplinary board again one german and one austrian were in charge. Like it or not the south countries are not invisible and wanted to be equal part of the boards] The point was that allmost all of you were central europeans and your decisions helped central europe's countries. Exactly the same did catania board. I wrote a lot of interesting things but you only answered about the major. Anyway i think that now is the time to learn from the south-north mistakes and have a proper and fair fistf for all.

Where are the people "from the south" now, who want to join a new BoD? Now.
Who want to join the next disciplinary council? We all wait for there appearance and statements.
If so, fine...

But is it really right to ride continously on that north/ south-question?

But what would you say, if now - par example - only just a fanatasy - these people would candidate for the BoD:
Paul E. | USA - President
Rob S. | Australia - Secretary
Vesa von K. | Finland - Sport
Simon H. | USA - Communication
Claudio M. | Argentinia - Marketing
Mike B. | Scotland - Finances


Last edited by Thossa on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  drastis on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:01 pm

The person who started this post is unable to have an unbiased view on things. Therefore, it is quite difficult for others to extract a concrete and consistent opinion out of what he writes.

If Southern countries (Italy, Spain, Greece, Malta etc) want to be represented in the new BoD decently, they only have to do two things:

1. Ensure that a legal election will happen
2. Nominate certain persons for the BoD

If you remember well, the last time an election was announced, two greek players were not allowed to nominate for a post in FISTF BoD, not because "Northerners" objected, but because a Maltese president, and a Greek vice-president refused to accept the nominations.

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:09 pm

Thossa you drive the dialogue in wrong direction.
The BoD decided Major in Greece.
I was not member of this BoD. I give the same answer with Heinz.
The same BoD decided Palermo for W.C.
The ex BoD decided Rain. Never changed.

The distance and the money for long trips are many for to discuss this time for USA Argentina Australia ETC in BoD. We must create at first a plan and after to follow it. I didn't ever see plan for table soccer community outside of Europe.
I DIDN'T SEE BUT ONLY FEW FOREIGN PLAYERS TO PLAY IN GREECE WHICH IS IN EUROPE !!! AND MANY PERSONS ARE ANGRY FOR MAJOR IN GREECE !?!?

WE MUST BEGIN FROM POINT 0.
drastis wrote:
If you remember well, the last time an election was announced, two greek players were not allowed to nominate for a post in FISTF BoD, not because "Northerners" objected, but because a Maltese president, and a Greek vice-president refused to accept the nominations.
P.S Unfortunately Drastis has right. But and Koutis has right for the decisions until one year before.
The Rock wrote: The point was that allmost all of you were central europeans and your decisions helped central europe's countries.
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Thossa on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:13 pm

drastis wrote:If you remember well, the last time an election was announced, two greek players were not allowed to nominate for a post in FISTF BoD, not because "Northerners" objected, but because a Maltese president, and a Greek vice-president refused to accept the nominations.

Oh yes, I remember, Chris Aggelinas and you.

We should write a book about last year, only because not to forget all the things what went wrong.
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:15 pm

only one book is not enough...

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:21 pm

I don't understand your combination in that case?
Nobody says that you or anyone else is to blame that there is a Major in Greece.
I think most people are aware who is responsible for that.
I think the problem is that the Major is in Greece and people complain about it, but you have to understand that I would also complain if a Major would come that way to Austria. It is not fair and valid and it is dangerous to do such things, because other people then use it as argument to act the same way next time.
Anyway in my opinion you can't change any decisions taken so far if they are right or wrong, because the season is running and Greece will have a Major, the CL will be in Athen and the EL will be in Malta, the same way as the WC will be in july in palermo.
As you said with the start of the season 2011/2012 all those "irregular" decisions must be forgotten and a board has to start at 0, but people also must understand it and don't use the past as an argument. We must back on the track of the rules written in the handbook.
I hope a new board has about 3 months time to have a look on the handbook for changes which are necessary and then things have to come back in the right track.

kechris wrote:Thossa you drive the dialogue in wrong direction.
The BoD decided Major in Greece.
I was not member of this BoD. I give the same answer with Heinz.
The same BoD decided Palermo for W.C.
The ex BoD decided Rain. Never changed.

The distance and the money for long trips are many for to discuss this time for USA Argentina Australia ETC in BoD. We must create at first a plan and after to follow it. I didn't ever see plan for table soccer community outside of Europe.
I DIDN'T SEE BUT ONLY FEW FOREIGN PLAYERS TO PLAY IN GREECE WHICH IS IN EUROPE !!! AND MANY PERSONS ARE ANGRY FOR MAJOR IN GREECE !?!?

WE MUST BEGIN FROM POINT 0.
drastis wrote:
If you remember well, the last time an election was announced, two greek players were not allowed to nominate for a post in FISTF BoD, not because "Northerners" objected, but because a Maltese president, and a Greek vice-president refused to accept the nominations.
P.S Unfortunately Drastis has right. But and Koutis has right for the decisions until one year before.
The Rock wrote: The point was that allmost all of you were central europeans and your decisions helped central europe's countries.

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:36 pm

You have right that many tournaments in south Europe the next year.
But you forgot many years in past with ALL Majors E.C and W.C in central europe.
I can prove it. Greece and Malta hadn't Major ever.
Malta organise W.C the 2003 and Greece E.C the 2007. Spain and Portugal i remember organised E.C before 4-5 years.
ALL THE MAJORS AND THE REST W.C IN E.C TOOK PLACE IN CENTRAL EUROPE. (BOLOGNA IS CLOSER TO CENTAL EUROPE).

So please stop your comments for next year (new arguement by point 0).
You will create new war between South and North.
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:55 pm

Kostas, you got me totally wrong.
Why don't you understand that the problem is not that there is a Major in Greece now?
Why don't you understand that the tournaments have not been in those countries because they didn't apply for those events?
When the countries you mentioned applied they got the tournament.

It has absolutely nothing to do with south or north. There was absolutely no negative meaning in my post, please understand and accept that.
I'm absolutely not the one who wanted or who want to start a confrontation between different countries or regions.

I don't understand why you become offense and always interprete my post in a negative way undependent what I write.

kechris wrote:You have right that many tournaments in south Europe the next year.
But you forgot many years in past with ALL Majors E.C and W.C in central europe.
I can prove it. Greece and Malta hadn't Major ever.
Malta organise W.C the 2003 and Greece E.C the 2007. Spain and Portugal i remember organised E.C before 4-5 years.
ALL THE MAJORS AND THE REST W.C IN E.C TOOK PLACE IN CENTRAL EUROPE. (BOLOGNA IS CLOSER TO CENTAL EUROPE).

So please stop your comments for next year (new arguement by point 0).
You will create new war between South and North.

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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:21 pm

I didn't become offence. But i bored and tired to explain you that we -in Greece- have different opinions for your ideas.
If you cann't understand i don't know why we continue the conversation?
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Re: North and South. Former and new Bod

Post  von K. on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:04 am

Giorgos, as Heinz explained, the problem for people is not that Hellas has big competitions. The problem, and it is a huge problem, is that they were given to Hellas against the rules and clearly without good will (like forgetting the application of a belgian club for club competitions).

You have also seen the IO's, GP's and other competitions that are not applied according to the FISTF rules.

When Paftap has organised itself in a trustworthy way, and the FISTF BoD is working properly, I would have no problems voting (if I would have a vote) for Hellas, if it has the best application, or it is time to give Greece a big competition (it is, but in the right way).

I think you are intelligent and see that the problem is not Hellas as a country.

I also wish you can see the damage that recent years have done to Hellas reputation (as a country, not individuals). You have influence in Hellas, hopefully you can change things.

The Rock wrote:
A piece of advice to the intelligent and nice guy vesa: try to lern as much as you can for the history of the game and for the players and their characters. There are many people that do care and could offer a lot to the sport , even if they don't write in forums.

I'm not sure I understand correctly, but nevermind.

I know there are many people who can offer a lot. In the Council of Nations I proposed to create system in which the CoN would ask opinions on matters from a selected big group of players, clubs and nations. This would have given a view of the people in the game/sport from many different areas and levels. I also said I know how to do it. But there were people (I can tell you names in private) who didn't think such opinions were needed, or that it was impossible. It is not, but there was nothing I could do more.

My "dream" is to see many commissions and only limited power to individual directors and president.

It was good that you commented also, Giorgos. I have seen you read often, and I thought I'd ask for your thoughts someday.

I call you by first name, because we met in Rain. I got a lesson from you. But I enjoyed it, and still remember fondly, that you gave me a high five (actually embarrassing Twisted Evil ) after a very good attacking move (my only good one in the game...).

von K.
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