Madrid, 02/11

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Kaitsu on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:57 am

giufaz wrote:
Belphigor wrote:Since mr Berlusconi we know what justice in Italy means What a Face

Can you please clarify your opinion of Italy and specify if you intended to be racist?
I can suspect it but I'm not certain and I have to decide if going to court for this or not.
In case you intended to be racist, please leave also your full name and address in order for me to proceed.
Of course in another website I would also ask the admin to proceed, but in this case I guess it is useless. Or not?
Best
I'm racist against dishonesty and you sir can get my full name and address from my country TF association.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  panagios on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:24 am

von K. wrote:
I have all the time been very interested in Italy. Why do I otherwise even read their forum. There are SO MANY italians who would be positive for FISTF. There are intelligent people, people who can have conversation based on arguments, logical people, people with ideas.

If I would have been elected, I would have wanted to create a heterogenical commission (expert group of sort) from Italy to get a clearer picture of what is it that different italians want from FISTF and from the game. I also had names to ask to all commissions I was thinking of.

This is the thing I'm mostly angry and disappointed about. It is incredibly ridiculous, especially in this situation to play these games. They have made many new people lose faith in any sense of being part of FISTF. Me included.

I can take democracy. I can't take a travesty of democracy.

point 1 : Name just one. I also read it and everyone is just cheering DeF's ideas and the success of Italy. This guy who owns Profibase wants the FISTF headquarters moved to Rome

point 2: You woun't be a president but an administrator.

point 3: political games are part of politics, this is why they are called political

point 4: western type democracy is Transvestite democracy by default. Wake up. I am now certain you are just dreaming.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  panagios on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:28 am

von K. wrote:
I can only see myself contributing for the international TF in a new federation. I can't contribute to something I don't believe in.

You have moved from being the "negotiator" to the "terminator" in one day!
I have to remind you that you run for president of this thing 2 days ago.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:35 am

Giufaz, instead of being the devil's advocate, you'd better answer all the questions from Vesa. Why don't you?

Having a sister who has been involved in politics for years (she was the press officer of the vice-prime minister), I know how politics are complicated but in all cases, the get credibility, elections must follow a normal process:
- you establish a list of candidates
- people who have the right to vote are warned a long time in advance
- elections take place

Here, it was all about changing rules all the times.
- Candidates were known
- nations with the right to vote were given several different ways to vote in the last few days and at the end some nations were not allowed to vote because of the changes
- just before the elections, people who said they were not candidates tried to manipulte the candidates by asking them to run for another job or to use blackmail (as Capponi did about Stefano's last minute candidature)
- you played a dirty game by being "the lawyer who had to control everything was followed as according to the rules" but finally you were just "the delegate of Malta who defended the interests of Italy and Spain"
- you tolerated the fact people announced in the last minute their candidature. By doing so, you knew the vote would only involve the nations present in Madrid (which is a shame)
- you didn't do your job so that Greece could vote (as the documents from Drazinakis and Kechris proved they could)
- you didn't make sure nations such as Finland and Austria could vote
- you didn't make sure nations such as Portugal (that voted only for the first round) could vote for the second round.

At the end, your presence in Madrid was definately not what people could expect from a lawyer...
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:36 am

Kaitsu wrote:
giufaz wrote:
Belphigor wrote:Since mr Berlusconi we know what justice in Italy means What a Face

Can you please clarify your opinion of Italy and specify if you intended to be racist?
I can suspect it but I'm not certain and I have to decide if going to court for this or not.
In case you intended to be racist, please leave also your full name and address in order for me to proceed.
Of course in another website I would also ask the admin to proceed, but in this case I guess it is useless. Or not?
Best
I'm racist against dishonesty and you sir can get my full name and address from my country TF association.
Thanks for answering even if the message wasn't for you. Happy that you are against dishonesty as most of people in the world and for sure all the people borne in my County.
As by definition racism is to be against a race, I'm interested only in this: to understand if the above messages in this forum are discriminatory because of race and our being Italians, to adopt the necessary remedies.

Best

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Kaitsu on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:50 am

giufaz wrote:
Kaitsu wrote:
giufaz wrote:
Belphigor wrote:Since mr Berlusconi we know what justice in Italy means What a Face

Can you please clarify your opinion of Italy and specify if you intended to be racist?
I can suspect it but I'm not certain and I have to decide if going to court for this or not.
In case you intended to be racist, please leave also your full name and address in order for me to proceed.
Of course in another website I would also ask the admin to proceed, but in this case I guess it is useless. Or not?
Best
I'm racist against dishonesty and you sir can get my full name and address from my country TF association.
Thanks for answering even if the message wasn't for you. Happy that you are against dishonesty as most of people in the world and for sure all the people borne in my County.
As by definition racism is to be against a race, I'm interested only in this: to understand if the above messages in this forum are discriminatory because of race and our being Italians, to adopt the necessary remedies.

Best
As someone said, in Italy there's 1000+ tf players, so i believe that there must be intelligent and honest people in that group. They just haven't been too much present in this forum.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:55 am

Admin wrote:Giufaz, instead of being the devil's advocate, you'd better answer all the questions from Vesa. Why don't you?

Having a sister who has been involved in politics for years (she was the press officer of the vice-prime minister), I know how politics are complicated but in all cases, the get credibility, elections must follow a normal process:
- you establish a list of candidates
- people who have the right to vote are warned a long time in advance
- elections take place

Here, it was all about changing rules all the times.
- Candidates were known
- nations with the right to vote were given several different ways to vote in the last few days and at the end some nations were not allowed to vote because of the changes
- just before the elections, people who said they were not candidates tried to manipulte the candidates by asking them to run for another job or to use blackmail (as Capponi did about Stefano's last minute candidature)
- you played a dirty game by being "the lawyer who had to control everything was followed as according to the rules" but finally you were just "the delegate of Malta who defended the interests of Italy and Spain"
- you tolerated the fact people announced in the last minute their candidature. By doing so, you knew the vote would only involve the nations present in Madrid (which is a shame)
- you didn't do your job so that Greece could vote (as the documents from Drazinakis and Kechris proved they could)
- you didn't make sure nations such as Finland and Austria could vote
- you didn't make sure nations such as Portugal (that voted only for the first round) could vote for the second round.

At the end, your presence in Madrid was definately not what people could expect from a lawyer...
Vincent,
As I already said I'm tired to defend my job.
I can assure that everything was done not only according to rules but also in an ethic way.
If you still doubt, ask your lawyer in Madrid: we both shared all the difficult situation and the management of the meeting was done all togheter with all the people involved.
If you don't trust me, bealive at least your lawyer present at the meeting: given the situation we acted in the only possible way to respect rules and ensure democracy. Holland vote is an evidence of this (ask your lawyer). Greek situation too.
As however I thing that the interest here is not in truth, who still doubt is free to go to court to challenge decisions were taken (not by Italians: by the way the father of my best friend was a judge killed by mafia - Paolo Borsellino - and I had many friends who suffered because of killings in 80s being their parent police man or judges, almost 8 of my friends today are judges acting against mafia and I know very well the meaning of this world. Just think before offending people, you will never know how people can react to your offences. Don't complain if at the end somebody go to court).

Going to your role of administrator and your liability, I formally invite you to adopt all measures in order to stop insults and racism in this forum using all the instruments you have (wornings, bann, etc).
Otherwise one will need to study different measures.
Best

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:15 am

You just don't answer the questions... It's really exhausting...

By the way, I also have a strong feeling that in Italy, even if some people were ready to be candidates (I know 2 of them for sure), the FISCT (or De Francesco directly?) prevents them to be candidate. Is it because De Francesco should be the only Italian involved?
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:21 pm

Admin wrote:You just don't answer the questions... It's really exhausting...

By the way, I also have a strong feeling that in Italy, even if some people were ready to be candidates (I know 2 of them for sure), the FISCT (or De Francesco directly?) prevents them to be candidate. Is it because De Francesco should be the only Italian involved?
Vincent,

Your lawyer was present in Madrid and he can give you all the answer you need, exactly as I could. Please, ask for him the information you need.
Can you reply to my precedent post? are you going to get the liability of you admin role?

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:26 pm

Being the Admin, I have the feeling the comments posted by different people on this forum reflect a general feeling that these elections have been a joke.

The meeting of Madrid was more an "agreement between friends who have time and money to travel a whole week-end in Madrid" rather that a real election reflecting the votes and the opinions of the 16 nations entitled to vote.

Having been to the meeting in Frankfurt in January, I was sure of the way things would happen and I wasn't wrong. That's how I decided I had much more important things to do last week-end and I didn't want to waste time, energy and money to attend such a big unrealistic meeting.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:32 pm

Gentlemen (of both sides),
Aren't the EGM's minutes ready yet ?
This document will be very important for everybody to know the real facts on the meeting.
I sugest it should be published asap and then everybody can react in the proper way.
Before that, I suggest stopping all this useless discussion.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:22 am

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
Aren't the EGM's minutes ready yet ?
This document will be very important for everybody to know the real facts on the meeting.

Yes, Luis. But there was not an impartial secretary there to make notes (which I suggested already in January, I think), nor was there an impartial lawyer that was promised (by Piero, was it?).

So, I'm afraid we get the same level of minutes we got from Rain. And I really am anxious to see if they have anything to do with the information received.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:34 am

giufaz wrote:
von K. wrote:
Sorry, Giulio, if you are too busy to answer. But if you write, you get comments. Especially when you write (maybe by mistake) something strange.

Vesa,

Sorry for your changing attitude, I thought that you were interested to understand and now I realize that you are only looking for a way to get reason. And if something go against your wish, you deem it "strange".
However we were very lucky as your lawyer (not only me) was at the meeting and we shared decision (so with Alain and Laurent - we are very lucky they are in our world of table football).
Maybe if you were there you would have been sharing too the way we followed.
And something I really don't understand is how, with the caos there was during the week before the meeting and the serious passion you are now putting in keyboard, no one of you came to the meeting to discusse there, whilst according to the existing statute that was the real place to express opinions in democracy...

Giulio, I'm also extremely disappointed at your change of attitude. I've heard about your actions in Madrid and also about the actions of those honorable men you mention.

Sorry to say, but I wrote these same things before the meeting. I have always been critical towards things that need to be criticised. And as you can see from many of my actions and answers, I never did anything to get elected without telling what I truly think and believe in things. Getting elected by licking behinds would have been easy.

Giulio, your actions let me down. Don't come telling me things about my motives, which are completely against my character and my person.

I criticised the whole circus (both "sides") before Madrid, and sent a letter on saturday morning (to Capponi and some others) which condemned the circus. Maybe you didn't know, or notice my texts here.

All I know is that FISTF lost in Madrid. But I didn't, and I'm just a lucky man to have escaped the presidency, if things are like this (if elected I was looking to unify to try to make things like this history).

p.s. I also expect argumentations to the questions, instead of general comments against my persona questioning my motives and honour. Sorry you can't provide them anymore after the congress.

p.s.2. Coming up now with comments about being on the keyboard and not in Madrid is really thick. You didn't have a problem before with that, and you know my reasons (work, family, no money to spend). You as a top lawyer maybe don't appreciate that 300-400€ is a lot of money to some people. And if we were big enough for papers, journalists would ask the same questions.

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. (Bertrand Russell)


Last edited by von K. on Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:00 am

panagios wrote:
von K. wrote:
I have all the time been very interested in Italy. Why do I otherwise even read their forum. There are SO MANY italians who would be positive for FISTF. There are intelligent people, people who can have conversation based on arguments, logical people, people with ideas.

If I would have been elected, I would have wanted to create a heterogenical commission (expert group of sort) from Italy to get a clearer picture of what is it that different italians want from FISTF and from the game. I also had names to ask to all commissions I was thinking of.

This is the thing I'm mostly angry and disappointed about. It is incredibly ridiculous, especially in this situation to play these games. They have made many new people lose faith in any sense of being part of FISTF. Me included.

I can take democracy. I can't take a travesty of democracy.

point 1 : Name just one. I also read it and everyone is just cheering DeF's ideas and the success of Italy. This guy who owns Profibase wants the FISTF headquarters moved to Rome

point 2: You woun't be a president but an administrator.

point 3: political games are part of politics, this is why they are called political

point 4: western type democracy is Transvestite democracy by default. Wake up. I am now certain you are just dreaming.

1. Maybe I was mistaken, but I think most critics decide not to get involved openly, like in many things.

2. I know, and you must have read that from my posts. I "wanted", but as I wrote before the elections, I would not implement my own ideas or opinions if they were not the same as from the commissions.

3. I always thought FISTF was a game federation. Not a political scene. But I seem to be a dreamer.

4. Democracy has standards, which varie by country, of course. I always expect a lot from myself, and want to see good things in people, and I expect a lot from others, too. I'm happy to dream about better things. And in a hobby I would have wanted to see better things, because a hobby should be about forgetting all the negative realism in other areas of life.

panagios wrote:
von K. wrote:
I can only see myself contributing for the international TF in a new federation. I can't contribute to something I don't believe in.

You have moved from being the "negotiator" to the "terminator" in one day!
I have to remind you that you run for president of this thing 2 days ago.

You don't understand why? I ran for president of FISTF to help it be something alse than this. Unity was supposed to be the issue, declared by people from different sides.

I'm not a terminator, I'm just as critical as always. I was critical also as a negotiator. Tell me what have I written that is to terminate, not to criticise or seek truth? I wish to have answers to some things. If that terminates something, then it is because of itself.

Why would I continue to contribute to a hobby (of course in Finland I will) that I don't believe in anymore. And, I can tell you that I'm not the only one.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  panagios on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:48 am

Putting aside the fact that your excuse " I cannot contribute to a hobby ..." but you will in your country (???) , is laughable ( I can sympathise with your frustration for the things that happened during elections but if your read what you wrote you'll see that the hobby is not the issue here), I am satisfied with everything else that you wrote.

I am sending you a PM

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Lorenzo on Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:32 pm

panagios wrote:point 4: western type democracy is Transvestite democracy by default. Wake up.

Glad to hear a word of healthy realism Idea at the end of all this delusion and self-deception No

Panagios, I like your posts. Are you from Greece?
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  panagios on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:01 pm

yes

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:49 pm

panagios wrote:Putting aside the fact that your excuse " I cannot contribute to a hobby ..." but you will in your country (???) , is laughable ( I can sympathise with your frustration for the things that happened during elections but if your read what you wrote you'll see that the hobby is not the issue here), I am satisfied with everything else that you wrote.

Ok, I agree that the wording is not very good, and can, at least, be misinterpreted.

But can you be a bit more precise? Because I'm not quite sure I understood your comment completely. Do you mean a hobby is a single entity, that can't be separated into parts?

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  panagios on Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:57 am

Look at the date of the post. It was before we exchanged pms.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:46 am

panagios wrote:Look at the date of the post. It was before we exchanged pms.

Oops... clown

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