Madrid, 02/11

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  drastis on Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:36 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:Giufaz himself was representing Malta

Giufaz, are you kidding???

The lawyer who travelled to Spain to secure that everything would be according to Law??? How can you defend a country's interests and the Law at the same time??

I hope this impartial and integer person has something for an answer!

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Lorenzo on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:11 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
That request can only be done by people who wouldn't be prepared if they would be candidate. If somebody would be candidate for president he should already think about a program or the structure before the elections, if he is asked to candidate for secretary (with already 2 candidates) or sports director (no candidate) 1 week before elections, I totally can understand everybody who says he applied for that job and nothing else.

Heinz,

it may be that individual candidates were at fault, yet I think that working out a programme is pointless as long as individual elections are enforced.

What’s the purpose in devising a plan for the sport dpt. if candidates don’t even know who will be president and whether he will regard tablesoccer as a sport or a game? What’s the point in developing a communications agenda centered, say, on the expansion of the international forum, if Catania becomes president and he chooses to close it down straight away?

Programmes can and shall be devised only after moving to a list system, with groups of candidates selected in advance.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Thossa on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:28 pm

mikeburns wrote:
Mike, when the guys in India contacted us and said "we want to be members of FISTF because we want to create an association to develop table football in India", we were very surprised. We were even more surprised when, a few days after wesent them our handbook (so that they could know our rules), they made a ban transfer of 100 Euro and said "we paid our membership fee" (!!!)

As for corruption, when I saw on TV that Russia and Qatar were chosen to host the world cup, I couldn't believe my eyes and just said I hope there will never be as much corruption in FISTF than at FIFA. I realize it's worse now!

As for the Europa League, I basically thought it was really shit as an idea. Then I changed my mind. I think it can be a good idea but there are many rules that need to be changed. Both Cups need to be played at the same place. It's also a big joke some countries can have teams at the Europa League without being at the Champion's League... To see Atlas winning the EL was one of the biggest jokes of 2010 as they should have been in Mattersburg...


Thanks Vincent for the answer. I am happy with that, I just wanted to make sure.

I also agree with you about the Europa League point.

You can fairly discuss this with Stefano De Francesco too, the creator of Europa League, but first you have to learn how to communicate in the italian forum.
Nevertheless, another good question is, will the new president (or parts of his team) apoligize to India and repair what catania has demolished?
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:41 pm

Would you also say that Piero isn't serious-minded and a commited person if he would have sent a last minute application for the marketing department Exclamation Question

Thossa wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:We have a new Board, I hold Piero and Stefano for serious-minded and committed persons, and I think the only sensible thing to do is to support their efforts to bring the movement together.

Except of Fred Vulpes and without Silvio Catania it is the same team like last year, just a bit mixed up in the jobs here and there. Once Stefano called himself a dreamer here in this forum. Piero´s main interest should be Total Soccer, not FISTF-President. Fancy the situation people could think he will misuse his position because of Total Soccer interests.

It is really a very very sensible thing...

I expect from serious-minded and committed persons not a candidature in last minute without a program presented right in time Exclamation

But, as these gentleman already presented in January 2010: We want to be professional. That must be program enough, right?

Some people probably ask for a 2nd chance for all. In my opinion, they missed it already before last weekend. And for some it would be the 3rd or 4th chance by the way... I am frightened

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Thossa on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:01 pm

Heinz,
you know very well my position regarding Piero Capponi out of different conversations, but it is no secret:

For me, Piero can be a very important person in our TF-world - no question - if he concentrate only on Total Soccer and sell boxes as much as he can all over the world.

After his second resign from a FISTF-BoD in 2010 it was out of question for me to see him again as part of any BoD. Nobody can be trustful when he chuck it all in two times. An of course Piero knows my position, too. I wasn´t amused anyway to see him as BoD-member because of his background as producer of material. As we know out of our FISTF-history, it was always wrong to have this "commercials" in power... this is actually an unwritten statute Exclamation
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:06 pm

drastis wrote:
Janus_Gersie wrote:Giufaz himself was representing Malta

Giufaz, are you kidding???

The lawyer who travelled to Spain to secure that everything would be according to Law??? How can you defend a country's interests and the Law at the same time??

I hope this impartial and integer person has something for an answer!

Drastis, please from now on if you like to receive more information or opinion do it in pm. Lets stop public debate just for polemics that I think are already gone over the limit.
The facts on your intervention: as you may be aware, at the end Catania decided to don't come. The structure Catania proposed wasn't effective anymore and therefore there was not an official lawyer for the meeting. Therefore I decided to don't go (even if I was in Madrid for work reasons).
In fact, the only people admitted to the meeting were delagates and BoD members. Therefore, in order to permit my participation I was asket to be at the meeting officially as delegate for Malta but mainly and in truth to help the President (Alain Collins) and the Secretary (Laurant Garnier) with the management of the meeting.
The same happened with the Spanish Lawyer who was delegated for Belgium.
I acted in the interest of law giving opinions against the wish of both parties (for instance to admit you as candidate even if you are - for whatever reason you like - not a member of FISTF, to permit the vote from Holland even if De Francesco was claiming it should have not the right to vote, to ask for Kutrumanos to don't vote). And I always agreed with Spanish lawyer.
Of course now you can try to see a complot everywhere but I hope that at the end you will recognize that things were well manged.
Concerning me, please, if you are really interested in answer and not just in polemics, just via PM.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:27 pm

Hi Giulio,

there is no polemics about it, but I just want to collect some facts, just because I'm interested to know. And since you are the person who can deliver these information first hand, I ask you:

- Who asked you to take part in the meeting?
- Who are the acting Board members of Malta (I apologize not to know...)
- Why and when did Catania decide not to attend?
- With Catania being in Madrid, would you have been the Maltese delegate (since catania wouldn't have been permitted to vote by himself)?
- Who received the postal votes from England and France and who were the ones who sent them?
- Since legal papaers from Greece had been submitted in time, how could you propose that Greece has no vote?

Hope you can bring some light into it,
Thanks in advance
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:57 pm

Marcus Tilgner wrote:Hi Giulio,

there is no polemics about it, but I just want to collect some facts, just because I'm interested to know. And since you are the person who can deliver these information first hand, I ask you:

- Who asked you to take part in the meeting?
- Who are the acting Board members of Malta (I apologize not to know...)
- Why and when did Catania decide not to attend?
- With Catania being in Madrid, would you have been the Maltese delegate (since catania wouldn't have been permitted to vote by himself)?
- Who received the postal votes from England and France and who were the ones who sent them?
- Since legal papaers from Greece had been submitted in time, how could you propose that Greece has no vote?

Hope you can bring some light into it,
Thanks in advance
Markus,

I understand your couriosity but it is becoming very time expensive for me.
Once the minutes of the BoD will arrive you will find many answers to your questions.
The others, if you will remain courious, via pm.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:00 pm

Who was the candidate for sports director except of a last-minute candidature of Chris Aggelinas (isn't he a commited person now)?
We have to stop talking about the same things differently only because of the involved people.

I try it another time!
Where have the alternatives been on the week-end?

Wake up, some people didn't manage it to offer enough alternatives.
Our current statutes and the involved people make it necessary to plan elections (and the result, that sounds sick, but it is reality).

Thossa wrote:Heinz,
you know very well my position regarding Piero Capponi out of different conversations, but it is no secret:

For me, Piero can be a very important person in our TF-world - no question - if he concentrate only on Total Soccer and sell boxes as much as he can all over the world.

After his second resign from a FISTF-BoD in 2010 it was out of question for me to see him again as part of any BoD. Nobody can be trustful when he chuck it all in two times. An of course Piero knows my position, too. I wasn´t amused anyway to see him as BoD-member because of his background as producer of material. As we know out of our FISTF-history, it was always wrong to have this "commercials" in power... this is actually an unwritten statute Exclamation

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Thossa on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:06 pm

Booh, yes, Heinz. You sing this song a couple of times ago. And by the way Vincent was the only offical candidate as Sports Director. Remember? You are right, regarding the statutes in case of elections. We know it all. It will be interesting NOW, if the General Secretary, the President or somebody else of the BoD "allow" to modify the statutes in case of election in the best way for the next congress.



Heinz Eder wrote:Who was the candidate for sports director except of a last-minute candidature of Chris Aggelinas (isn't he a commited person now)?
We have to stop talking about the same things differently only because of the involved people.

I try it another time!
Where have the alternatives been on the week-end?

Wake up, some people didn't manage it to offer enough alternatives.
Our current statutes and the involved people make it necessary to plan elections (and the result, that sounds sick, but it is reality).

Thossa wrote:Heinz,
you know very well my position regarding Piero Capponi out of different conversations, but it is no secret:

For me, Piero can be a very important person in our TF-world - no question - if he concentrate only on Total Soccer and sell boxes as much as he can all over the world.

After his second resign from a FISTF-BoD in 2010 it was out of question for me to see him again as part of any BoD. Nobody can be trustful when he chuck it all in two times. An of course Piero knows my position, too. I wasn´t amused anyway to see him as BoD-member because of his background as producer of material. As we know out of our FISTF-history, it was always wrong to have this "commercials" in power... this is actually an unwritten statute Exclamation
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:09 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Who was the candidate for sports director except of a last-minute candidature of Chris Aggelinas (isn't he a commited person now)?
We have to stop talking about the same things differently only because of the involved people.

I try it another time!
Where have the alternatives been on the week-end?

Wake up, some people didn't manage it to offer enough alternatives.
Our current statutes and the involved people make it necessary to plan elections (and the result, that sounds sick, but it is reality).

You are pointing to the key question... Not for the first time, obviously...
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Thossa on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:17 pm

Jurik, von K., Drazinakis were alternatives, new and unconsumed... the problem is, the same old people decides only for themself


Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Who was the candidate for sports director except of a last-minute candidature of Chris Aggelinas (isn't he a commited person now)?
We have to stop talking about the same things differently only because of the involved people.

I try it another time!
Where have the alternatives been on the week-end?

Wake up, some people didn't manage it to offer enough alternatives.
Our current statutes and the involved people make it necessary to plan elections (and the result, that sounds sick, but it is reality).

You are pointing to the key question... Not for the first time, obviously...
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:44 pm

Markus and von K applied for the same position.
George applied for general secretary.
Vincent applied for Communication.
Who were the candidates for Marketing and Sport? Nobody cared who is the candidate of the other side, because nobody was interested in having "normal" communication.
After the final list was published by Silvio, some people became very nervous, but it was too late.
I only know one word for that! CHAOS, that's the best word for the last week before the meeting.

Thossa wrote:Jurik, von K., Drazinakis were alternatives, new and unconsumed... the problem is, the same old people decides only for themself


Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Who was the candidate for sports director except of a last-minute candidature of Chris Aggelinas (isn't he a commited person now)?
We have to stop talking about the same things differently only because of the involved people.

I try it another time!
Where have the alternatives been on the week-end?

Wake up, some people didn't manage it to offer enough alternatives.
Our current statutes and the involved people make it necessary to plan elections (and the result, that sounds sick, but it is reality).

You are pointing to the key question... Not for the first time, obviously...

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  kechris on Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:02 pm

yesterday in Athens we played the first round of greek league for clubs.
Do you know who was the organiser?
ME.
Do you know that for first time we have 2 categories and 18 teams (new record) took part.
The people in Greece want playing but was dissapointed with ex illegal president's acts.
They learned that change the situation and 100 persons came to play.
If you want to continue playing in Europe you must stop work with illegals persons.

I took a mail by Peardens. If he works for new BoD he accept them.
The same for Vulpes and members of Disciplinary council.
If you don't like the new BoD YOU MUST STOP IMMEDIATELY WORK FOR THEM.

OR STOP TALKING.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:17 pm

+1 Kechris!
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:16 am

Heinz Eder wrote:
Who were the candidates for Marketing and Sport? Nobody cared who is the candidate of the other side, because nobody was interested in having "normal" communication.

Sorry, Heinz, but you are wrong. I tried to bring up discussion about this already some time ago (January, I think), but De Francesco just laughed, that who am I to mention any names from Italy or Spain.

I also talked a very civil telephine conversation with Stefano. I mentioned a name, and I said I'd like to see other names also from Italy. But the discussion was impossible to have, as I have already written.

I have all the time been very interested in Italy. Why do I otherwise even read their forum. There are SO MANY italians who would be positive for FISTF. There are intelligent people, people who can have conversation based on arguments, logical people, people with ideas.

If I would have been elected, I would have wanted to create a heterogenical commission (expert group of sort) from Italy to get a clearer picture of what is it that different italians want from FISTF and from the game. I also had names to ask to all commissions I was thinking of.

Heinz Eder wrote:After the final list was published by Silvio, some people became very nervous, but it was too late.
I only know one word for that! CHAOS, that's the best word for the last week before the meeting.

This is the thing I'm mostly angry and disappointed about. It is incredibly ridiculous, especially in this situation to play these games. They have made many new people lose faith in any sense of being part of FISTF. Me included.

And I must add that it was not because of just a few countries' representatives. Most people showed they can't forget themselves to save the atmosphere of FISTF. Most people don't understand that being in a FISTF board means they represent and have to work for the best of FISTF, without any national or personal interests when making decisions.

I can take democracy. I can't take a travesty of democracy.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:22 am

kechris wrote:
If you don't like the new BoD YOU MUST STOP IMMEDIATELY WORK FOR THEM.

I have stopped for good. And this means the whole FISTF. I will only work with FISTF when I have to as part of our association (I don't make decisions for it).

I can only see myself contributing for the international TF in a new federation. I can't contribute to something I don't believe in.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:49 am

giufaz wrote:Catania decided to don't come. The structure Catania proposed wasn't effective anymore and therefore there was not an official lawyer for the meeting.

Catania made the original structure as president of FISTF. How could that be uneffective without any decision and any information. FISTF promised an impartial lawyer, and now you say that there wasn't one.

giufaz wrote:
Before the meeting we accepted that Laurent Garnier, trusted by everybody (and all thebpeople of this forum) as wise person could personally transform the telephonic vote in a postal vote.

What does this mean? That the telephonic vote promised by this wise man was changed without informing for example Finland about it? We asked for confirmation of the receiving of the votes letter, and asked for a telephone possibility (through an impartial lawyer who we were promised and who I thought was you, you weren't impartial after all, but a delegate of Malta), and that the votes can be confirmed when the letter arrives.

So was it correct to change the system there?

About people you don't know (6 months in TF), I don't know why you say anything. You were also there as an impartial lawyer (as Capponi told people), and not as a character witness. I trust your legal knowledge, but my I do know 5 finnish lawyers, and can tell you that the knowledge of ethics (usually not possible when following letter of the law) or judgment of people varies a lot among them. I don't know your level on thise, so, please, stay within the facts without acting as character witness for this wise and trusted man. It's just a fact.

So, which countries had a vote? Did the letters of Finland and Austria arrive? Did Greece vote? I see 13 votes, so one those three voted. Which one, and how?

giufaz wrote:Those votes, as you can imagine, weren't in favor of Piero or Stefano.

I thought it was a secret vote?

giufaz wrote:The congress, therefore, knew only postal votes (no telephonic ones)

How is it possible to receive the last official letter from FISTF that tells the contrary on thursday (I think), and then change on saturday, when no one is able to travel anymore? The letter of the law should have given us the possibility we were promised, and if not, then the whole election process seems to me like discrimination and an electoral fraud based on false information from one of the candidates.

I have to remember to ask this when I see the Helsinki region's electoral matters lawyer in a few weeks. Of course french association law can again allow also this.

giufaz wrote:
Furthermore, during the congress all the countries were admitted to vote and all the postal vote received by Laurent (I guess by phone) where deemed valid.

Laurent received a vote by phone? He was a candidate, and I thought phone voting was not accepted.

I'm sorry, but you are writing illogical things here.

giufaz wrote:
I hope it can be useful and in truth I wish here to provide only information you are requesting without polemic.

This was expected from you as an impartial person at the congress. Now I hear you represented a country as a delegate, and also I read personal opinions of people's character and motives.

giufaz wrote:As I'sure that my intervention will be followed by many polemics of people that cannot accept that everything was done according with rules and in a fair mode.

There are many questions unanswered, and it's not polemics.

Fair? After what I wrote above as the actions of Garnier and his letter in the name of FISTF and about the telephone voting then being cancelled? And how about a candidate being the recipient of votes letters, without members knowing it before they send the votes?

Many things can be done "according to the rules" with statutes like FISTF's. This is exactly the reason why higher ethics would have been needed badly. But I do know for a fact that the finnish public electoral system would not allow those changes without people being able to react, and also from a person gaining straight benefit from his actions. I'm also almost certain that a similar situation would be also against association law. It's finnish law, not french, but it makes words like 'fair' sound a bit strange to my ear. Law is letters, fair is a about moral.

Sorry, Giulio, if you are too busy to answer. But if you write, you get comments. Especially when you write (maybe by mistake) something strange.


Last edited by von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:52 am

Heinz Eder wrote:
Those who wanted to be undependent didn't have any chance.

Have you counted the votes for me an Piero in the second round, if all 15 would have voted. I have information which tells me that an independent candidate could very well have been elected if the process would allow it.

I was asked from 2 directions for the board of theirs. Both times I said no, I'm independent, and for FISTF, because FISTF needs independent leaders at the moment.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:05 am

giufaz wrote:Concerning payment of fees for Countries that were not present, I personally don't see anything wrong if a person that the Country delegate for participating to elections pays in the name of the Country: where do you see the corruption here?
I love this part Shocked Shocked Shocked
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  alex popoff on Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:13 am

[quote="Admin"]
giufaz wrote:Concerning payment of fees for Countries that were not present, I personally don't see anything wrong if a person that the Country delegate for participating to elections pays in the name of the Country: where do you see the corruption here?
Admin wrote:I love this part Shocked Shocked Shocked

It will be funny to send that to an association of lawyers ! They will laugh during one week !
Giufaz you are the best, we love you !!!!!! lol!
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Belphigor on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:22 am

Since mr Berlusconi we know what justice in Italy means What a Face

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:39 am

von K. wrote:
Sorry, Giulio, if you are too busy to answer. But if you write, you get comments. Especially when you write (maybe by mistake) something strange.

Vesa,

Sorry for your changing attitude, I thought that you were interested to understand and now I realize that you are only looking for a way to get reason. And if something go against your wish, you deem it "strange".
However we were very lucky as your lawyer (not only me) was at the meeting and we shared decision (so with Alain and Laurent - we are very lucky they are in our world of table football).
Maybe if you were there you would have been sharing too the way we followed.
And something I really don't understand is how, with the caos there was during the week before the meeting and the serious passion you are now putting in keyboard, no one of you came to the meeting to discusse there, whilst according to the existing statute that was the real place to express opinions in democracy...

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:44 am

[quote="alex popoff"]
Admin wrote:
giufaz wrote:Concerning payment of fees for Countries that were not present, I personally don't see anything wrong if a person that the Country delegate for participating to elections pays in the name of the Country: where do you see the corruption here?
Admin wrote:I love this part Shocked Shocked Shocked

It will be funny to send that to an association of lawyers ! They will laugh during one week !
Giufaz you are the best, we love you !!!!!! lol!


The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. (Bertrand Russell)

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:49 am

Belphigor wrote:Since mr Berlusconi we know what justice in Italy means What a Face

Can you please clarify your opinion of Italy and specify if you intended to be racist?
I can suspect it but I'm not certain and I have to decide if going to court for this or not.
In case you intended to be racist, please leave also your full name and address in order for me to proceed.
Of course in another website I would also ask the admin to proceed, but in this case I guess it is useless. Or not?
Best

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