Madrid, 02/11

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:02 pm

I only want to summarize what I think about those things I read here.

I'm not against a meeting in Madrid generally. I only disagree on it actually, because there is no official list of candidates, there are people asked 4 weeks before the meeting if they are ready to candidate. I'm pretty sure that those people are not prepared for that, so they have to decide about their candidature in a few days. Then they have to think about their program in 2 or 3 weeks.
People who maybe already have a program are attacked in that forum without knowing their program, but other people would be accepted without even asking for their program as it seems, but that is something different.
So in my opinion the meeting is too close, the agenda was published last week, before that it even wasn't clear if elections would take place. The agenda left important questions open too. All those things make me believing that the meeting won't bring the solution we all wish.
Those are the reasons why I'm not happy with the meeting.
For the future we need another change in our statutes, because I think it is too close to organize a meeting 3 months after the request, because there is a very short time left for those who have to make a trip. So to make it more fair for all a future board should think about the deadlines and there should also be some rules about the deadline of invitation and agenda.

The names for activities in FISTF are all interesting, but there are several things which have to be considered in my opinion. I totally disagree that a director needs to have more than 20 years experience in table soccer (of course a base experience is needed). It is the same if you have a driver's licence for 30 years but you destroy every year a car. Are you automatically a better driver than somebody who drives the same km per year and has the licence for 15 years, but still has the same care he started with?
The important thing in sports department for an example is the commission and its under commission, there should sit the people, who some of you wanted to be candidate for the director.
I also disagree on it to attack somebody to be not so experienced, it is not fair only judging somebody's skills based on the number of international tournaments and years he plays table soccer. Do you really think that the players with many tournaments and years of tablesoccer are the elite of that sport? I hope not.
Nobody ever thought about other skills somebody needs to be candidate, there is no list of needed skills for an example. If you want to look for candidates because the candidates don't apply, you need a list of requirements for the different jobs before you start asking people. In our community many opinions are only based on personal matters, that's the problem we have now, do you really think somebody is ready to do a job, where he has to take decisions which maybe cause personal problems with people? Some people are only asked because they COULD do it better, but if not exactly those who brought up their name now, will critizize them.
If people candidate that list of requirements could show if the candidate is the right choice for the job. If he isn't but he gets elected, those who elect or proposed him should be those to be blamed not the candidate for applying.

The right team is something difficult. Currently our statutes don't allow to form teams before the elections (practically it happens). The problem is that the president has to trust all the directors, if there are personal problems between the president and a director, it could mean that he doesn't trust that director and that is not what we need actually. The same is important for a director and the people who work in his department. Between different departments that shouldn't be an important factor in my opinion.


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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:19 pm

Heinz,

your reasoning and corect but you have to keep in mind two things:

1) Technique: the conference is convened, there are people who will go and go to elections.

2) Policy: There are people who are calling for elections as 1 year. the official request is for three months. Now we discover that there is no ready alternative board ????????

The feeling that there was a front for the "NO " to anything is getting stronger .....

Only heard no to this idea, NOT this person, not this way ...... but when real work is just ...... Vincent.

Piero

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  maxischn on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:36 pm

piero it is easy to say "you had one year to form a team"

but now look at the gaps that opened up, a wanted team would have been consisted of Vincent and Stefano (for example) - now a work with both is impossible, so you got to rethink and plan again... and then there is a EGM without any real deadlines (except to name the 2 representatives per country) but no deadline for an application or something, no presentation of the candidates in front of the meeting ....

professional working went missing a long time ago....
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:39 pm

In Frankfurt a new Board was elected only based on the promise that they would "be more professional". After one year, everybody can see the conclusions of the disaster...

Sports department: extremely bad (only Heinz was working till september and after that Olivier was asked to come back but he had no power of decision because Catania - the "official of the year" - wanted to decide everything by himself or with his greek friend).
Communication: disaster.
Marketing: nothing done.
Presidency: apart from "having nice letterheads", it was all bullshit.
Secretary: what secretary?
Finances: probably the only department that tried to work well.

So how can any of the people who were involved in the last 12 months as director be involved in FISTF again?

When I saw the names of the Board members in Frankfurt, I was ready to cut my hand as I was sure it would be a disaster and in no way I wanted to be associated to these people.

And now we are in a situation where Heinz is welcome as president (even if he said he's not interested), me for communication (because there is nobody else), Thossa, Luis, Fred,... All those who were "so bad as so amateur" are asked again. This situation is really unbelievable...

After the disaster of the meeting in Rain (where Catania had promised elections before deciding not to have elections) and when I see the list of people who confirmed their presence in Madrid, I fear the meeting will be another disaster.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:50 pm

Heinz, the meeting has problems, as you said. For example 1 of the three countries who have announced their delegation is Greece. The delegates are Koutroumanos and Papakonstantinou. Only this makes the whole meeting easily void, if they are there without being elected by the actual Paftap Board of today (no one even seems to know which it is). The agenda was and is also full of things that leave everything open (for example approving members and candidates).

The schedule is too tight as Heinz wrote. But the problem is not the 3 months, it is the lack of deadline for invitations and agenda. I don't know many people (even outside TF) with work and family, who can travel like this, with only a month to organise things. Most people have their calendars full for the next 1-2 months.

For me it is strange that some people seem to think that if a person is not capable of putting TF in front of family and work with such short notice, it means he is only talking or writing. Anyway, who decided the date? I'm sure everyone would have been able to find a good weekend if they could choose themselves.

And then there is of course the money. Like Mike Parnaby wrote somewhere, we are not millionaires. Spending 600 euros (for many easily more than net loose money in a month) doesn't go down well in all families. So, having the meeting on a tournament weekend, would probably be better for many people. Or to have net conferences which the business world uses a lot already. Just a reality check on the possible problems.

About the teams, Heinz. Maybe the attitude in TF is so amateurish that we have these problems with presidents and directors. I hope not. A president can't have a personal problem with a director in work, and let it influence. Trusting people has got nothing to do with opinions or arguments. And the work has to be based on evaluating arguments and opinions.

You are right that different departments shouldn't have problems between them even in TF.


Last edited by von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:56 pm

So?

All this we know.

Spain has called for elections as along with 7 other COUNTRIES,.

We have already established that I'm not going to file (always assume my responsibility) ... in Spain there are people available to work on commissions (Granados, Guerrero, Mendez, Martinez ).... and the other 7 countries?

Who had been candidates in Rain?

I have the feeling that everyone is looking for excuses for not spending the money to go to Madrid ..... or to start another federation........via mail .... ....


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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:00 pm

Vesa, even if I read somewhere that you don't like me very much, let me tell you once again that I can't not find any sentence from you I disagree with. Because you're always clever, right and honest, you should really be the perfect man to be president of FISTF.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:02 pm

Maybe there are people already ready but they are waiting what next about all advances and retreats we all has seen in the last year.
A lot of people didn't forget what happened in Rain and they have doughts about if the EGM effectively takes place and also the elections will be held in Madrid.
We must all understand why there are a lot of qualified people that refuses to be candidate because of those all fights we have seen in the last months. They don't want to be envolved in the current FISTF situation.
All we read in this forum and also in the italian forum about this issue, doesn't help to find the right solutions for the problem.
Now, there are two sides with extreme positions and I believe we must find independent people in the middle, out of both blocks but with the support of both.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:09 pm

Of course you are right, that we have people like that, but we had them always and we will always have them.
You exactly point out the problem in point 2.
My question also would be, what happened between Rain and the call for the EGM now!?

As I told you already, when I heard about the call for an EGM without candidates, I was very sceptical. Of course nobody can know what candidates maybe apply in the end, but there should be known at least 6 by those 8 countries who called for the EGM. It doesn't work another way with our current statutes.

pierocapponi wrote:Heinz,

your reasoning and corect but you have to keep in mind two things:

1) Technique: the conference is convened, there are people who will go and go to elections.

2) Policy: There are people who are calling for elections as 1 year. the official request is for three months. Now we discover that there is no ready alternative board ????????

The feeling that there was a front for the "NO " to anything is getting stronger .....

Only heard no to this idea, NOT this person, not this way ...... but when real work is just ...... Vincent.

Piero

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:12 pm

Some questions, Piero. Who decided the date for the meeting, and with whom was it discussed?

Who will compensate for the loss of money and working time if the meeting will be illegal (illegal representatives or members, or cancelled candidates etc) or the elections will be cancelled (has happened before)? Rain was a disaster, and even if it would be possible, I would not waste money for similar "event".

Do you, Piero, ever criticise anything (like politics, for example)? Does it also always mean that you have to become a political candidate if you don't like the decisions? Of course it doesn't. You also criticise the marketing, but you are not a candidate.

Where are the candidates from Spain?

Many questions, not many answers. Things are not as clear as you want to think. I know you are frustrated, and as a host want to have a good meeting, but you also don't want to see things from the other perspective.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:14 pm

600 euros? to go where? We met and Santo Domingo?

The room costs 76 euros for two nights, the hotel can be reached by metro, 2 euros, dinner 20/25 euros, coffee breaks and the room on me.

I want to say that a flight to Madrid costs 500 euros?

Everyone knew that we were having a REUNION BEFORE MARCH.

WE HAVE A REQUEST CONGRESS AND THE SPECIAL CONGRESS MUST BE DONE IN 90 DAYS AS MAXIMUM.

The statutes do not allow voting by mail or am I wrong?

The reality? People talk a lot and has little desire to work (I speak in general Vesa, not you.)

Naturally, the money will go to Mons has it all over the world ...

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:20 pm

Admin wrote:Vesa, even if I read somewhere that you don't like me very much

Sorry, Vincent, I didn't say like that. I said I am very critical of some of your decisions. And I said I'm not your "advocate". But I also respect the good things you do. It has nothing to do with the person Vincent Coppenolle. Things are just things.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:33 pm

Piero, the problem is not Madrid and the problem is not the EGM.
The problem for the associations is the perspective.

pierocapponi wrote:600 euros? to go where? We met and Santo Domingo?

The room costs 76 euros for two nights, the hotel can be reached by metro, 2 euros, dinner 20/25 euros, coffee breaks and the room on me.

I want to say that a flight to Madrid costs 500 euros?

Everyone knew that we were having a REUNION BEFORE MARCH.

WE HAVE A REQUEST CONGRESS AND THE SPECIAL CONGRESS MUST BE DONE IN 90 DAYS AS MAXIMUM.

The statutes do not allow voting by mail or am I wrong?

The reality? People talk a lot and has little desire to work (I speak in general Vesa, not you.)

Naturally, the money will go to Mons has it all over the world ...

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:05 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Of course you are right, that we have people like that, but we had them always and we will always have them.
You exactly point out the problem in point 2.
My question also would be, what happened between Rain and the call for the EGM now!?

As I told you already, when I heard about the call for an EGM without candidates, I was very sceptical. Of course nobody can know what candidates maybe apply in the end, but there should be known at least 6 by those 8 countries who called for the EGM. It doesn't work another way with our current statutes.

pierocapponi wrote:Heinz,

your reasoning and corect but you have to keep in mind two things:

1) Technique: the conference is convened, there are people who will go and go to elections.

2) Policy: There are people who are calling for elections as 1 year. the official request is for three months. Now we discover that there is no ready alternative board ????????

The feeling that there was a front for the "NO " to anything is getting stronger .....

Only heard no to this idea, NOT this person, not this way ...... but when real work is just ...... Vincent.

Piero

Heinz naturally.

I agree with you 1,000%.

But between the lack of people willing to work, the anger, the proud, rules, laws, personal problem ... is very difficult to find a solution.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:17 pm

pierocapponi wrote:600 euros? to go where? We met and Santo Domingo?

The room costs 76 euros for two nights, the hotel can be reached by metro, 2 euros, dinner 20/25 euros, coffee breaks and the room on me.

I want to say that a flight to Madrid costs 500 euros?

For example over 400€ from Helsinki by Finnair, and the schedules are not the best for that price. More for the better schedules. It is possible to find lower prices through agencies, but not too much lower. Cheap airlines (which I don't like to use) don't fly from Helsinki to Madrid.

pierocapponi wrote: Everyone knew that we were having a REUNION BEFORE MARCH.

Well, until Catania is ousted, nothing is certain. Before march means a lot of possible weekends, and the official confirmation came only a couple of days ago.

pierocapponi wrote: WE HAVE A REQUEST CONGRESS AND THE SPECIAL CONGRESS MUST BE DONE IN 90 DAYS AS MAXIMUM.

Yes, this is true. But perhaps the countries that called for it would have agreed to postpone it by a week. With all the illegal things, this doesn't seem to be much.

pierocapponi wrote: The statutes do not allow voting by mail or am I wrong?

Yes, and I'm afraid we'll see many votes like this. However this leaves many people out of the discussion, which would be even more important.

I know I'm not travelling enough anyway. I'm just talking about how to get more people there.

pierocapponi wrote: The reality? People talk a lot and has little desire to work (I speak in general Vesa, not you.)

Working is perhaps not the biggest problem. The problem is getting everything in place to do the work. For me voting online for a provisional board (until Palermo, perhaps) would have been enough, and work could have started. If the EGM really requires a separate meeting with people travelling, I don't know.

pierocapponi wrote: Naturally, the money will go to Mons has it all over the world ...

It could have been some other tournament also, if that is what you mean.

I'm trying to identify the problems. They exist whether we like it or not. One of the basic problems is that people from different countries don't have the will to see the problems and reality of the others. I'm talking generally, because this is something that almost every country has to learn to do.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Thossa on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:22 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Piero, the problem is not Madrid and the problem is not the EGM.
The problem for the associations is the perspective.

Right said, Heinz.

Catania is playing dirty games with FISTF resp. the reponsibles in the member & partner nations.

The idea for the call of EGM was THE ONLY chance to eliminate Mr. World Grand Master from president´s chair.

Remember, he wanted to make the EGM in Malta.

A BoD MUST work together in democracy way. You can say whatever you want, but the Coppenolle-team never ever left this way.

Now the situation is as follows: Catania canceled Laurent Garnier from the BoD on the lost FISTF-website. But according to Garnier, he is still in the BoD. That means, if two out of three FISTF-BoD-members (Collins & Garnier) didn´t gave their OK for an EGM on 26/27 of February (whereever in Malta or Madrid), the invitation CAN NOT BE CORRECT.

Now we have the situation only Corso, De Francesco, Koutromanos & Papakonstantiou will meet Capponi in Madrd for a meeting. All of them responsible persons and innovator for the Catania-Desaster.

What if next Garnier & Collins declare in the name of FISTF BoD, out of the FISTF Head Quarter in Les Herbiers, the election will be cancelled and move them to Mons or Amsterdam to win time for proper preperation.

Mind: IF CATANIA would show balls, after hopefully realising he is all alone and without support, WILL RESIGN RIGHT NOW, nobody needs an EGM anymore and everyone would be happy. The rest of the BoD (Collins & Garnier) can nominate ad interim new BoD-members and one of them can lead FISTF commissarial as president until the next WC with leagl elections and enough time to sort out important things.

Problems solve, so easily.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:26 pm

pierocapponi wrote:
But between the lack of people willing to work, the anger, the proud, rules, laws, personal problem ... is very difficult to find a solution.

This is what I mean by more understanding.

Anger and personal problems can not have a place in the FISTF work.

Rules and laws have to be the respected.

Proudness has to be kept in control, so that it doesn't turn into anger and personal problems, or lead to disrespect of laws and rules. Humility is the partner of proudness. It is the work of president to step in, in case of personal problems getting in the way of work.

With these corrected, people are happier with working. It is the same in every job.

But in TF it is very difficult to find people who have no burden. Many of the "big players" in TF politics don't have the ability to forget their ego, and work for the common good, accepting different opinions and ideas.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:31 pm

von K. wrote:
Admin wrote:Vesa, even if I read somewhere that you don't like me very much

Sorry, Vincent, I didn't say like that. I said I am very critical of some of your decisions. And I said I'm not your "advocate". But I also respect the good things you do. It has nothing to do with the person Vincent Coppenolle. Things are just things.
No problem Very Happy I know you're smart enough to separate things Very Happy
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:56 pm

Thossa wrote:
Now the situation is as follows: Catania canceled Laurent Garnier from the BoD on the lost FISTF-website. But according to Garnier, he is still in the BoD. That means, if two out of three FISTF-BoD-members (Collins & Garnier) didn´t gave their OK for an EGM on 26/27 of February (whereever in Malta or Madrid), the invitation CAN NOT BE CORRECT.

If this is true, oh dear. Has Garnier been asked about other things recently? It seems yet another illegality is ringing the doorbell. It is hopeless.

As it is impossible to hire a lawyer to clear this mess, it would be better to start from a clean table.

This means the whole board resigns, and members vote for a caretaker board until Palermo.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:06 pm

I'm sure Baudouin Heuninckx could be the perfect man to solve all "legal" problems.
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:19 pm

only for clearification.
the perspective should be given by the associations who called for an EGM.
If there wasn't an alternative it was very dangerous to call for an EGM.
As I said the question is if it is positive to stop somebody if there is nobody else who is ready to do the job.
It is unbelievable that in such a short time so many "silly" actions can happen, I fear most of them only happened out of personal motives. At least some people should have thought about the consequences before doing something like calling for an EGM.
Of course people were happy in first moment, and those who were not, were called undemocratic or whatever, because as it seems those who were happy didn't understand what they did.

Thossa wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Piero, the problem is not Madrid and the problem is not the EGM.
The problem for the associations is the perspective.

Right said, Heinz.

Catania is playing dirty games with FISTF resp. the reponsibles in the member & partner nations.

The idea for the call of EGM was THE ONLY chance to eliminate Mr. World Grand Master from president´s chair.

Remember, he wanted to make the EGM in Malta.

A BoD MUST work together in democracy way. You can say whatever you want, but the Coppenolle-team never ever left this way.

Now the situation is as follows: Catania canceled Laurent Garnier from the BoD on the lost FISTF-website. But according to Garnier, he is still in the BoD. That means, if two out of three FISTF-BoD-members (Collins & Garnier) didn´t gave their OK for an EGM on 26/27 of February (whereever in Malta or Madrid), the invitation CAN NOT BE CORRECT.

Now we have the situation only Corso, De Francesco, Koutromanos & Papakonstantiou will meet Capponi in Madrd for a meeting. All of them responsible persons and innovator for the Catania-Desaster.

What if next Garnier & Collins declare in the name of FISTF BoD, out of the FISTF Head Quarter in Les Herbiers, the election will be cancelled and move them to Mons or Amsterdam to win time for proper preperation.

Mind: IF CATANIA would show balls, after hopefully realising he is all alone and without support, WILL RESIGN RIGHT NOW, nobody needs an EGM anymore and everyone would be happy. The rest of the BoD (Collins & Garnier) can nominate ad interim new BoD-members and one of them can lead FISTF commissarial as president until the next WC with leagl elections and enough time to sort out important things.

Problems solve, so easily.

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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  maxischn on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:20 pm

piero i hope you can see already that it's not the location where an EGM will take place, but rather the things around it.... like

- Catania and the rest of the BoD didn't officially resign after the call for an EGM, they could (and i bet he will, call the EGM invalid or make it again just a discussion without votes like in rain)

- no official deadlines or guidelines for candidature (can everyone candidate? could my father? can i bring him along to the EGM and he will raise his hand there and say "i want to be your president?)

- will this BoD be official then? or just ad interim? is the old one offical? who is entitled to decide an EGM is happening?

- why are greek representatives allowed that aren't acknowleged by their national Board? same question again can my father come aswell? and represent Hungary? or perhaps North-Korea?

questions over questions....
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:40 pm

maxischn wrote:
- Catania and the rest of the BoD didn't officially resign after the call for an EGM, they could (and i bet he will, call the EGM invalid or make it again just a discussion without votes like in rain)

i can't remember that the old board resigned in november 2010 when the request for an EGM was sent Exclamation or did i miss something Question


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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  maxischn on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:46 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
i can't remember that the old board resigned in november 2010 when the request for an EGM was sent Exclamation or did i miss something Question


i can't remember that the EGM in november was legal at any point? or did i miss something? Smile
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Re: Madrid, 02/11

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:48 pm

why wasn't the request in november legal???

maxischn wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
i can't remember that the old board resigned in november 2010 when the request for an EGM was sent Exclamation or did i miss something Question


i can't remember that the EGM in november was legal at any point? or did i miss something? Smile

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