A game or a sport?

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:51 pm

DID WE SOLVE THE PROBLEMS WITH NEW SUBBUTEO AND NOW WE MUST SOLVE THE PROBLEMS WITH OLD SUBBUTEO? OH MY GOD !!!

new and old subbuteo?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

During the last 100 years the football changed. The balls are different the shoes are differents the rules are different but the game is the same. FOOTBALL !!!
The same for table soccer. The rules the bases the figures the pitches changed but the game is the same. TABLE SOCCER.

STOP LOOKING BACK. ONLY TO FUTURE.
STOP SPENDING YOUR TIME FOR OTHER REASONS. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS FISTF CONDITION NOW.
WE HAVE A BoD WITH 2 MEMBERS ONLY, NO HANDBOOK, NO CALENDAR.
DON'T MOVE YOUR EYES AND MIND OUT OF TARGET.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Subbuteo on Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:56 pm

kechris wrote:DID WE SOLVE THE PROBLEMS WITH NEW SUBBUTEO AND NOW WE MUST SOLVE THE PROBLEMS WITH OLD SUBBUTEO? OH MY GOD !!!

new and old subbuteo?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

During the last 100 years the football changed. The balls are different the shoes are differents the rules are different but the game is the same. FOOTBALL !!!
The same for table soccer. The rules the bases the figures the pitches changed but the game is the same. TABLE SOCCER.

STOP LOOKING BACK. ONLY TO FUTURE.
STOP SPENDING YOUR TIME FOR OTHER REASONS. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS FISTF CONDITION NOW.
WE HAVE A BoD WITH 2 MEMBERS ONLY, NO HANDBOOK, NO CALENDAR.
DON'T MOVE YOUR EYES AND MIND OUT OF TARGET.

Please Kechris, point me where someone typed fistf has to solve old subbuteo problems...
I have to quote myself but maybe in bold will be clearer:
Subbuteo wrote:
old subbuteo have nothing against table soccer, but i think is not interested to join any table soccer federation
And about your comparison with football, you're quite right: difference is that when you play football with friends, no need of referees, linesmen, or stud shoes...

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:28 pm

What I like in Old Subbuteo:
- back to the basics
- easy to understand
- fair-play and friendship are priorities
- subbuteo material for everyone is fair

What I don't like in Old Subbuteo:
- the spirit of their players is not into competition (it totally different to FISTF)
- most of the time their players can not even say why they don't like the FISTF rules

So, it means in general I think the Old subbuteo movement is great but it shouldn't be icluded in FISTF.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:51 pm

Ι will tell a story because i believe in examples.
In 1993 i travelled for first time outside of Greece for table soccer at Vervie.
Friday evening we went to a fantastic tower for the draw and for explain many new rules.
Then Willy Hoffman said for first time that the keepers can stay in air before shoot ! I lost my mind! I said him that is very unrealistic. We have keepers or superman i asked him.
I thought that the rules follow wrong direction. After i saw that this rule was a good rule. Because all the unfair players had their keepers in air before change the rule. After the new rule all the players had their keepers in air and the job was easier for the referees.
Many rules changed after. No freekick directly for goal, free shoot behind the middle of the pitch, bigger figures like fistf-sports and toccers and no only 3 flicks until spare keeper return back in goalpost. I am sure now many years after that all these rules are wrong.
Unfortunately many rules changed without reason. The fan of old subbuteo refused the new rules and the new equipment but i am fall in love with the new bases of plexiglass , the iron goalposts etc
I believe that the fan of old subbuteo must spend their power in FISTF to protect their ideas for rules and materials and no to leave from world table soccer community.
Everybody must help our favourite game to survive. There aren't two different games (old and new). Only one: TABLE SOCCER but everybody use the name :SUBBUTEO
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  old subbuteo on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:27 pm

Subbuteo wrote:
Who thinks that old subbuteo could be run by FISTF Question
Are you aware that Mr. De Francesco tried to introduce old subbuteo in the italian federation and failed pathetically?

Very Happy

King Midas in reverse.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Lorenzo on Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:29 am

Coming back to the folder’s topic, game or sport, I as an individual am only interested in the technical and agonistic aspects of table soccer. So it is a sport as far as I am concerned.

That being said, in such a niche activity we can’t afford the luxury of disperding our meager forces, so I think it would be awesome if FISTF could possibly reunite not only sport-minded and fun-oriented tbs players, but also absorb and coordinate the plethora of old subbuteo circuits existing in Italy and England.

As a matter of fact, Stefano made a well-conceived effort in this direction just a few years ago, and failed utterly. The bulk of old sub players are just interested in handling the toys and reviving the feelings they tampered with as kids, and indifferent to any attempt to turn their activity in something serious. A minority of them play old because they lack the skill, time or nerve to play the real thing, and these usually hate table soccer as a way to counteract their inferiority complex.

As a rule, ts players regard ‘oldists’ with mild contempt, whereas the latter’s attitude ranges from indifference to bitterness. The two communities are deeply split, and no attempt to reconcile them is on sight - sadly.

The idea I recently outlined on the other forum of replacing the veteran category with an entertainment cat open to all players and organized along more relaxed, stress-free features (FISTF’s WASPA… Wink ), was intended as a half-step in this direction.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  old subbuteo on Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:30 pm

Lorenzo wrote:these usually hate table soccer as a way to counteract their inferiority complex.
You're wrong, we have a superiority complex.
Stefano is the one with the inferiority complex.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:18 pm

old subbuteo wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:these usually hate table soccer as a way to counteract their inferiority complex.
You're wrong, we have a superiority complex.
Stefano is the one with the inferiority complex.
You're more than probably right. He's proving it every time he's banning ("or asking the admin to ban") people on the other forum...

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:00 am

Lorenzo wrote: ... As a matter of fact, Stefano made a well-conceived effort in this direction just a few years ago, and failed utterly. The bulk of old sub players are just interested in handling the toys and reviving the feelings they tampered with as kids, and indifferent to any attempt to turn their activity in something serious. A minority of them play old because they lack the skill, time or nerve to play the real thing, and these usually hate table soccer as a way to counteract their inferiority complex.

Does not really sounds nice, your comment ! And I don't support it ....

There are not only communities of old subbuteo in Italy and England but also in Germany. Since more than 25 years the "Bären-Pokal" in Berlin in May is a MUST for all old subbuteo players. We found a good connection between old and progressive because we accept both styles.
BUT on the other side we lost a lot of players during the battles who is right and who is wrong some 15-20 years ago when FISTF was born.

With the new rules of the game a lot of players just stopped playing. I am convinced we would have a lot more members in Germany if both sides would have accepted the other side as from the early beginning.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  hönkki on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:22 am

In Finland we play with two rules:
1) the FISTF-rules
2) the Finnish rules

When we play with the Finnish rules
- We often use HW-figures or even LW-figures and no polish is allowed.
- The ball is the smallest one (18 mm).
- The attacker need to wait defender's blockingflick, except when the ball is moving on the scoring-area. Then it is allowed to shoot on the moving ball. The defender cannot make a blockingflick when the ball is moving.
- It is not allowed to score so that the ball touch the defender on the way to the goal.
- The clock is stopped when goal scored, goalkick or freekick.
- Too rough tackling will cause yellow or red card for the figure.

Many players are also football fanatics and they use real line-ups with they teams. When they score, they write down the name of the figure, which has scored and then they keep statistics about games played and goals scored for each figure. Some players even give grades for each figure after the game. Substitutes for figures are allowed and some use them a lot, when changing tactics during the game. For instance sometimes it is good to change HW to LW, when more skill with spinflicks is needed.

Many old players loves those rules and there are absolutely no way to turn them to play just with the FISTF-rules, or as we sometimes say, with "the fast-rules" (the Finnish rules are "the slow-rules").
So we play with two rules. Some players play only with the FISTF-rules, some only with the Finnish rules and some with both rules, but we are almost all in the same association. Of course the scale is totally different than in Italy (we have in total about 40 players in our FISTF-rules and Finnish rules rankinglists) and that might make the unity of players a bit easier.

Is table football then more like a sport or a game ? In the end it doesn't matter, but still I would say sport, because of
- the amount of concentration during games between equal players
- you need to move around the table and you need to have skill in your fingers, so there is the physical-element
- there are ranking-tournaments and WC

I don't know any hobby which is called "game" and has all those features.

Finally I can only wonder, how it is possible there is so much politics around this game/sport ? Where does it basically came from ?

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:33 pm

Perosnal problems are a big part of the issue. There are different views and I don't understand why people are so different. For me it is clear some people have showed too much bad faith, in particular Italians and their friends from Spain, Greece and Malta because they don't understand that in other countries the game is taken in a more relax way. I also think the first real "battle" took place in the world cup in the Netherlands when the "south" refused to have a world cup in Denmark. I still don't understand why. I also don't understand how Capponi could become a leader while he doesn't know much about the history of our game. Peole like Capponi and Garnier are very strong to convince people they they have fantastic ideas, even if in reality they are totally wrong.

To think that table football can become "professional" is a nice dream but I think all the most experienced people in our community are aware it's just a dream. I don't like to hear that we must work on promotion, attracting new players, organizing big events,... while the big majority of our players just want to play.

There are different philosophies and I just don't think there are positive issues...

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:44 pm

I totally agree with you Hönkki.
In my opinion every association should be the roof association of all subbuteo table soccer players, undependent of the kind of subbuteo they play.
The discussion sport vs game exists for a very long time, some people define sport like you do, some others have another definition. The only thing which is definately is that in most countries table soccer isn't an official sport.
People who talk about sport mean officially recognized nothing else, but in my opinion they don't consider many things, which are necessary obligations then, if you are recognized once, those people only see the money.
From the side of organisation FISTF and nearly all member associations fullfill all requirements to be recognized officially, the only thing which is problematic is the number of players in nearly all countries.

For me we are a sport out of the reasons you correctly meantioned, but being recognized officially would mean to me:
We need to be more open for "sports equipment", in my opinion actually we are a game according on that.
If we want to be a real sport we should stop copying soccer in almost all rule questions, if we are a sport we should have our own individual rules which are matching perfect on our sport.
In most countries there aren't contracts existing, actually you are not allowed to bind a player for more than 1 year according on FISTF rules, if you want to be professional FISTF should have its own contracts which can be used by the clubs.
Another example is if you teach a young player and then when the player is good enough he signs for another club, all your time, energy and maybe even money is spent for nothing.
If we are officially recognized we have to accept the WADA code, which maybe isn't funny for most players if you look around at the tournaments.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Lorenzo on Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Does not really sounds nice, your comment !

Janus, my remarks are intended to be accurate, not to be affable: veritas odium parit (truth begets hatred).

Obviously, my judgment is based on the Italian situation. It may certainly be that in other countries there is less or no attrition between ts and old communities, and I can imagine that the more relaxed way table soccer is played in Northern Europe helps in this direction.

All best!
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:16 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
In my opinion every association should be the roof association of all subbuteo table soccer players, undependent of the kind of subbuteo they play.

This was the idea, when I some time ago mentioned the possibility of joining the older rules and FISTF. They could very well work under a same roof, if there were no interiority/superiority complexes. It's just wrong to think they should all do things the same way (pro/hobby, toy etc). Everyone is united by basically the same game.

As I once wrote, I dream not of completely professional TF on television (who's watching, really), but I dream of a TF festival which is open to all enthusiasts around the world with all rules. Seeing different variations of rules would also help people stay in the game, and perhaps even try other rules later. I know many people in Finland, who would have stopped early, if only one of the rules we use would have been available. It's quite idiotic to talk about growing the numbers, and then only offering one "professional" way of doing things for the beginners.

As for a game or a sport, who cares? No one who loves the game itself cares. Only those who seek some benefits it brings either way, and they can freely work on it in their own countries. Why bother others with that.

For me as a father of 2 boys, it's clear the boys will be introduced to TF. But for them to do that as their main physical hobby (in here meaning sport) is as ridiculous as Snooker. For me a sport is something you can do as your only physical hobby. That gives you heterogenic exercise. Other games are something else if you ask me (I know the official view, which is quite far from the original interpretation for sport and hobby). Even videogames fall into the category given by Hönkki, by the way. For me a person playing a sport is an athlete, and the word athlete is something I would not use for many TF players. Just my personal view.

Being a sport would, however, bring benefits. For example the attitude of many players would not be tolerated anymore. And also the way FISTF is run would have to change to a lot better. Being a sport would open it to more genuine journalistic interest, and I'd love to see some questions raised in public regarding the FISTF Board Twisted Evil I don't think SdF and some others have realised that at all, as they are running towards the tv coverages and everything else professional.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  hönkki on Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:25 am

For me as a father of 2 boys, it's clear the boys will be introduced to TF. But for them to do that as their main physical hobby (in here meaning sport) is as ridiculous as Snooker. For me a sport is something you can do as your only physical hobby. That gives you heterogenic exercise.

- No one is asking your boys to play TF as their MAIN physical hobby.
- I have run 2 marathons. I wouldn't call marathon heterogenic, but as you can imagine it was more sport than anything I have ever done.

Every sport gives you something: weightlifting gives power, running gives stamina, TF gives something else.

Other games are something else if you ask me (I know the official view, which is quite far from the original interpretation for sport and hobby). Even videogames fall into the category given by Hönkki, by the way. For me a person playing a sport is an athlete, and the word athlete is something I would not use for many TF players. Just my personal view.


It's maybe difficult to insist TF is a sport, but I think it is even more difficult to insist TF is just a game. I would put TF in the same category with these

http://www.minigolfsport.com/
http://www.table-soccer.org/
http://www.fipjp.com/fr/
http://www.croquet.org.uk/

I would consider them as sports, maybe just and just (55-45), but still as sports. TF as a sport should aim for the same common status as those mentioned above.

About videogames: nowadays there are some physically very demanding videogames, which I would definitely call as a sport.

I dream of a TF festival which is open to all enthusiasts around the world with all rules.

That is a good dream.

Being a sport would, however, bring benefits. For example the attitude of many players would not be tolerated anymore. And also the way FISTF is run would have to change to a lot better. Being a sport would open it to more genuine journalistic interest, and I'd love to see some questions raised in public regarding the FISTF Board Twisted Evil I don't think SdF and some others have realised that at all, as they are running towards the tv coverages and everything else professional.

Somehow I believe SdF have realized there could be some tricky questions in public, but he wants to take the risk anyway, because the tv coverage would be so big thing. Just my guess.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  dromer on Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:34 am

I wonder who wants to watch subbuteo on TV.


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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  hönkki on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:57 am

I wonder who wants to watch subbuteo on TV

Maybe not so many, but someone watch subbuteo on youtube.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:02 pm

Croquet was an olympic sport in the early days...

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  hönkki on Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:41 pm

Croquet was an olympic sport in the early days...

I believe that. Olympics were something else on those days. They had even "cultural sports" like poetry and architecture until London 1948, just for amateurs of course.

Too bad that subbuteo wasn't invented before 1947 Very Happy

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:47 pm

Right now becoming an olympic sport is absolutely impossible. Rugby or cyclo-cross are not even olympic sports so I have no idea how table football could be...

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:25 pm

hönkki wrote:
For me as a father of 2 boys, it's clear the boys will be introduced to TF. But for them to do that as their main physical hobby (in here meaning sport) is as ridiculous as Snooker. For me a sport is something you can do as your only physical hobby.

- No one is asking your boys to play TF as their MAIN physical hobby.

I didn't explain well, but also you didn't read well all the sentences Cool

It was only my personal view on sports. And that in a situation where someone asks for your hobbies and you answes "sport". And then the only sport is TF. I would find that answer quite funny in that situation. Like I would find some other games which are sometimes labelled sports. In that situation I would not answer that my boys do sport for a hobby.

The long general discussion about this can be read here on this forum, and your points are true of course. I only added a personalised (ill explained) point of view this time.

hönkki wrote:Somehow I believe SdF have realized there could be some tricky questions in public, but he wants to take the risk anyway, because the tv coverage would be so big thing. Just my guess.


I don't think he has a clue about what the troubles of leading a global sport federation are. But it's a matter of belief or guess, not a fact.

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Re: A game or a sport?

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