A game or a sport?

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  kechris on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:17 am

Ι respect the Pierro's dream. But in the best occasion we need many years until table soccer be sport.
What will we do until this time?
Pierro you want to do big steps in sand.
The first step is to organise our hobby like a hobby.
When we will manage the first step then we must find million players around the world.
When we will manage the second step then we will make an effort to recognise our hobby as sport.
If we will manage the table soccer to be A SPORT then we will look for for managers and proffesional leaders to drive us to future.
All this steps need many years, much work, and of course a lot of money.

But Pierro please don't write again that we lost 15 years. I played outside of my country before 17 years in the first great tournament of fistf without waddington in vervie 1993. I took part in hundred international tournaments and i think that your comments for 15 lost years is wrong.
My opinion? the last year is the worst year is my mind. A real lost year. Because many persons who were absent these 15 years promised the "moon" before we found the wheel !!!

In Greece the good drivers we use a slogan. If you want to arrive as soon is possible, go slowly !

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:24 am

von K. wrote:Exactly, Zinga.

, and could sell a freezer to a polar bear.


(Numbers from Wikipedia)
[/quote]

The polar bear may sooner than later need the freezer. Global warming and all...

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:27 am

kechris wrote:In Greece the good drivers we use a slogan. If you want to arrive as soon is possible, go slowly !


In athens you cannot drive fast anyway. Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:17 pm

Saying that we lost 15 years is unacceptable. Where were most of the unhappy people in the last 15 years? Many of them were not playing or didn't even know about FISTF. If we lost time, it was probably back in the 80s, when the game was available everywhere and very popular in many countries. At the time, nobody was really ready to organize things without the support of Waddingtons and apart from a few nations like Belgium, there was no "independant" association. In the mid 80s, when the game was at his best, the distributors of the game organized big exhibitions. In some places many clubs were created but most of them closed in the next 2 years (many clubs were formed by teenagers who had no way to travel because they had no driver to go to tournaments). In the 90's, everything had to be built at international level. Kechris mentionned the European Championship 1993 that, at the time, was a fantastic event (but Piero would say it's ridiculous if he could see images from this period). Paris 94 was the first very huge "independant event" as the organizers could afford to help Australians and a Canadian to come & play. But after this big event, it took years to have another "very big event" because organizers were not ready to commit themselves to get sponsors, big halls,... I remember the European championship was played in Wuppertal in a "not so nice" hall. But for the players, it didn't matter. Everybody had fun.

I believe the more we advance, the more things are difficult. Not every country has the chance to have a Piero Capponi who has not only the dreams of a 5 years old boy, the freshness of a newcomer, a lack of maturity that helps to think about "dreams" instead of "reality" and some possible sponsors (not everyone is lucky enough to be the boss of a successful company). Put a Capponi in Switzerland and Switzerland might become big in 3 years. You just need people with energy, a lot of free time and very few other priorities in life and you can get big things.

I always thought the improvement of FISTF in the period 2002-2009 was a "small miracle" because with very limited resources, we managed to make huge things. At the end everything was destroyed by people who have no idea of the real situation of FISTF. We had a majority of happy players but at the same time we were smart enough to admit we could have made so much more (if we had more time, more energy, more people involved, more money,...).

2010 has been the worst year in the history of table football. That's a fact.

People are unable to understand each other and that's a real drama.

Italy now pretends they are going to have 2000 players soon. I really wonder what will really be the situation of italian table football in 5 years....

Same opinion about Spain to be honest...

The future will tell us a lot of things...
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Guest on Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Thanks for the compliments Vincent.

I'm proud of my lack of maturity

Maybe you're right.

Maybe we are just wasting their time behind a dream.

Piero

(anyway the company, Netcam, is not mine. I just convinced the owners to believe in soccer table)


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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:07 pm

Piero, by the lack of maturity, I mean that if you had been involved over the last 15 or 20 years, you would have a better view of the current situation. Right now you are hiding behind dreams. When Janus says in Germany they need 10.000 active players to have a small chance to be rcognized as a sport, you just say"OK, let's work to have 10.000 active players." Sometimes the word "dream" is not enough to explain this situation...
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:26 pm

mikeburns wrote:i've started to play darts instead.

You have taken to sports, then?

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:30 pm

Dreamers are always needed. Piero's enthusiasm is not a problem. As Vincent in a bit clumsy way said, if all countries would have their Piero, many countries would do better.

A problem with dreamers is when they don't see the reality of others. Inside the dreamers own country or club many things can be set as normal targets, if people there accept it. In FISTF you need to convince not only the majority of countries but also people from very different cultures.

I think Piero should try to build a midway for his ideas in the FISTF. A sport-orientated section inside the federation or something. This would probably go down better with others.

If this would happen, and there would be a concrete idea to have a place for a sport and a game (for the moment at least), then I would see no point in thinking negatively about Piero's dreams.

It is usually not the dream that is the problem. The problem is what is been done to achieve that dream. The end does not justify the means according to most people.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:35 am

In my opinion the dreams are not the problem.
In general there are 2 types, the so called dreamers, they are doing things on paper and they are not patient. Then there are the realists, those people always try to find the hair in the soup of the dreamer's idea and they are more looking on the final realization and its possible problems.
The biggest problem is that dreamers are not patient. The dreamers can't think in steps. The whole structure and dream is like a punch in the face of realist, who always want to plan things.
Dreamers say "only" we want to be more professional, or we want to be a sport, but nobody of the dreamers who currently should lead FISTF became more precise since january. We had powerpoints with nice graphics what we want to be, but no concrete steps how we can become like the described on the powerpoints. No concrete actions in that direction.
A realist would define smaller steps and every step would come closer to the defined target. Dreamers are chaotic and they start 5 or 6 things parallel and none of them is done in a proper way then, because it is more than normal that in such situations mistakes happen. A realist is doing things sequential, so less mistakes happen, but it takes more time.
We need people who work more structured, it is like a project. You define the goal, you make a plan to know how long it will take, in some cases you need the factor cost, and then you decide, if it will be realized or not.
If we have a look on the topic sport for an example nothing of those things is done so far, but we discuss about so many useless things already, but we even don't have a plan.
Sorry, but for me that's a typically example of spent time for nothing. We are talking about splitting FISTF in a roof association of different subbuteo types. We have 2500 players in ranking and we want to split? We have events with an average of 50 players, you want to split in 3 different types every event and players have to choose which type they want to play? If not and the players can play in every type, you multiply the number of events, people are already now complaining about the number of events.
Where is a plan that it could work? When I read it is ok that there should be first a date and venue for the EGM otherwise it is lost time to think about a program, I think I'm in a wrong movie. Where is the problem to think already now about a program or to know already now candidates? We have to vote for individual persons, so everybody first should give his program, he would like to realize. In the end the elected team has to make a program out of all individual programs anyway.
I know that's sick, but we have to say thank you for that to our statutes and those people who didn't manage it to change them since january or september.

I really hope that the right people will find together to build a new board, nobody should blame dreamers and nobody should blame the realists, for a good board we need both types of people.

von K. wrote:Dreamers are always needed. Piero's enthusiasm is not a problem. As Vincent in a bit clumsy way said, if all countries would have their Piero, many countries would do better.

A problem with dreamers is when they don't see the reality of others. Inside the dreamers own country or club many things can be set as normal targets, if people there accept it. In FISTF you need to convince not only the majority of countries but also people from very different cultures.

I think Piero should try to build a midway for his ideas in the FISTF. A sport-orientated section inside the federation or something. This would probably go down better with others.

If this would happen, and there would be a concrete idea to have a place for a sport and a game (for the moment at least), then I would see no point in thinking negatively about Piero's dreams.

It is usually not the dream that is the problem. The problem is what is been done to achieve that dream. The end does not justify the means according to most people.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Martin Hodds on Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:10 pm

Great post, Heinz. Very Happy

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:30 pm

I fail to see what is wrong with different disciplines under the same umbrella , but I have been wrong in the past

as for programs, I see them as a must

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:32 pm

panagios wrote:I fail to see what is wrong with different disciplines under the same umbrella , but I have been wrong in the past

as for programs, I see them as a must
FIFA is in chare of football but also futsal. Right now, I just wonder if FISTF would be able to run both FISTF rules and old subbuteo rules circuits... Question
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:15 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
We need people who work more structured, it is like a project.

Yes, and we need a FISTF with clearer structures of making decisions. And we need transparency and argumentation behind the decisions, for people to accept them easier in this problematic situation.

Heinz Eder wrote:We are talking about splitting FISTF in a roof association of different subbuteo types. We have 2500 players in ranking and we want to split? We have events with an average of 50 players, you want to split in 3 different types every event and players have to choose which type they want to play? If not and the players can play in every type, you multiply the number of events, people are already now complaining about the number of events.

Where is a plan that it could work?

It doesn't mean a split if there are different types of play. We have 2 under the finnish association, and it doesn't matter at all to anything. Both are considered as important. This is also the case in many sports.

Panagios wrote that FISTF should examine the possibility to create a federation also with old subbuteo associations. This would just mean more credibility, more possibilities for newcomers to stay in the game (for example I would not have been so interested in the FISTF game when I was young). This would also mean more exchange between the disciplines (in Finland most players have at least tried both versions we play).

There can not be a plan that says it can work. No one person can do this. However, there should anyway be a commission that explores the questions of the game's and the federation's development. If that commission comes to the conclusion that it would make sense, then a plan should be developed to make it a reality.

Heinz Eder wrote:When I read it is ok that there should be first a date and venue for the EGM otherwise it is lost time to think about a program, I think I'm in a wrong movie. Where is the problem to think already now about a program or to know already now candidates?

Thossa wrote a program, or an introduction, before Rain, and it was a complete waste of time. We have been discussing about the possibility of lawyers entering the frame. A program written today, would maybe not be usable entirely if there would be a delay of for example 6 months because of legal actions.

I don't think politicians write their programs before elections are decided. They do things like we all do before that. They discuss the issues on forums. From those you can already create some picture of what someone is thinking about something.

Heinz Eder wrote:We have to vote for individual persons, so everybody first should give his program, he would like to realize. In the end the elected team has to make a program out of all individual programs anyway.
I know that's sick, but we have to say thank you for that to our statutes and those people who didn't manage it to change them since january or september.

Maybe I misunderstood, but do you prefer a block vote?

It would most probably contradict the quoted part below.

Heinz Eder wrote:I really hope that the right people will find together to build a new board, nobody should blame dreamers and nobody should blame the realists, for a good board we need both types of people.

Yes, and we need people from different areas. If there will be a block of south or north or similar, it will probably fail.

But we also need the BoD to read again the part of the statutes (I think) where there is mentioned the creation of commissions or work groups to help with the work. It's practically impossible to find 6 people who can do everything by themselves, think everything perfectly from all the angles, and have the humility to respect everyone they work for.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:26 pm

Admin wrote:
panagios wrote:I fail to see what is wrong with different disciplines under the same umbrella , but I have been wrong in the past

as for programs, I see them as a must
FIFA is in chare of football but also futsal. Right now, I just wonder if FISTF would be able to run both FISTF rules and old subbuteo rules circuits... Question

Do you think that the old subbuteo players would consider the FISTF guys able to run their circus? Of course not. There would be a Board for the administration. And below those directors that there would be the real working organisation that would consist most probably of Sports directors and Communication directors for both disciplines, and ranking officials for both etc.

The strength is in numbers, goes the saying. In a game this small, I think this is worth thinking about. And in many cases the old subbuteo idea of collecting, restoring, painting, the whole footy-like idea etc. is easier to sell to media and interested people. And some of these become sports players. I think for example Stefan Sandner is a case like this, along with many finnish players. Old subbuteo in Italy also gets a lot more media coverage than FISTF game (I have understood). Old subbuteo would probably get more kids interested in their ageing game, because some of the FISTF children would definitely be interested in that.

I really don't know the realism of having these people together, but as a theoretical idea, it has its good points.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:53 pm

I believe it would be a good way to get players involved but I doubt about the ability of FISTF to run 2 circuits because it ha always been hard enough to run the FISTF rules game with just a few people. The current board is the perfect exemple of what a disaster can be when you put people to "run a Board" but nobody is working (I mean real work, not just take decisions).

Also, the old subbuteo rules is mainly present in England and Italy. For the rest of the world, I don't believe there are many organized clubs or associations. Maybe I'm wrong...
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:09 pm

Admin wrote:I believe it would be a good way to get players involved but I doubt about the ability of FISTF to run 2 circuits because it ha always been hard enough to run the FISTF rules game with just a few people. The current board is the perfect exemple of what a disaster can be when you put people to "run a Board" but nobody is working (I mean real work, not just take decisions).

I don't think the old subbuteo circuit would be the problem... They are working a lot better than the FISTF.

Admin wrote:Also, the old subbuteo rules is mainly present in England and Italy. For the rest of the world, I don't believe there are many organized clubs or associations. Maybe I'm wrong...

It can be true. And I don't know if they would be at all interested. The whole activity is based on other things than competitions.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  drastis on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:14 pm

"Των οικιών υμών εμπιμπραμένων υμείς άδετε".

This is an Ancient Greek saying, which means: While your houses are burning, you are singing!

Instead of trying to get rid of the "provisional" and "professional" BoD, you are talking whether it is time to incorporate old subbuteo in FISTF!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:23 pm

von K. wrote:
Yes, and we need a FISTF with clearer structures of making decisions. And we need transparency and argumentation behind the decisions, for people to accept them easier in this problematic situation.

Of course we need that. The transparency and argumentation shouldn't be a problem, if the board takes serious decisions and has nothing to hide.

von K. wrote:
It doesn't mean a split if there are different types of play. We have 2 under the finnish association, and it doesn't matter at all to anything. Both are considered as important. This is also the case in many sports.
Maybe I expressed myself wrong, I only ask the question, if it would be possible to organize parallel circuits, or if it would be possible that we split the actual number of players to different circuits, nothing more.

von K. wrote:
Panagios wrote that FISTF should examine the possibility to create a federation also with old subbuteo associations. This would just mean more credibility, more possibilities for newcomers to stay in the game (for example I would not have been so interested in the FISTF game when I was young). This would also mean more exchange between the disciplines (in Finland most players have at least tried both versions we play).

There can not be a plan that says it can work. No one person can do this. However, there should anyway be a commission that explores the questions of the game's and the federation's development. If that commission comes to the conclusion that it would make sense, then a plan should be developed to make it a reality.

You are talking about 1 association doing that, it is very different to run something like that in 1 association or in many countries under the flag of FISTF.

von K. wrote:

Thossa wrote a program, or an introduction, before Rain, and it was a complete waste of time. We have been discussing about the possibility of lawyers entering the frame. A program written today, would maybe not be usable entirely if there would be a delay of for example 6 months because of legal actions.

I don't think politicians write their programs before elections are decided. They do things like we all do before that. They discuss the issues on forums. From those you can already create some picture of what someone is thinking about something.
Of course politicans are doing that. They publish their own program and tell people this or that and in the end after the elections they build a gouvernment and tell the people because of the partner they can't realize this or that what was promised before the elections.
My only question is if somebody writes a program now and the elections are postponed for 6 months because of any reason, what should change in those 6 months? Generally it would be better to have a program earlier, because then maybe people could give some input and if somebody wants to be elected he should be ready to discuss about his program and make maybe some modifications. Anyway as it seems we have different views about that, but that's ok, I can understand your view too.

von K. wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood, but do you prefer a block vote?
There are different options for a better result. In the end something like that has to be decided by a congress, but I think it is important to show different options.
The actual voting system is not good as we can see, because of personal problems between candidates. It is contra productive to make elections and after knowing the result you already know that you will have to vote in 3 months again. It is like voting as often till the wished result is reality, that isn't the sense of elections.
So there is the possibility to vote only for the president and the president has to nominate his team before the elections. The members of the team have to show a commitment that they agree on it to work in that team.
The second possibility is that the delegates vote for blocks as you said.
There isn't much difference between those 2 options, but it has to be written down differently in the statutes.

von K. wrote:
Yes, and we need people from different areas. If there will be a block of south or north or similar, it will probably fail.
It depends on the personality of the people, not on their nationality.

von K. wrote:
But we also need the BoD to read again the part of the statutes (I think) where there is mentioned the creation of commissions or work groups to help with the work. It's practically impossible to find 6 people who can do everything by themselves, think everything perfectly from all the angles, and have the humility to respect everyone they work for.

It is hard not to sound negative, but do you really think Vincent and me didn't try to form commissions, we had a project paper in every department. A commission in each department was a priority for Vincent. Maybe some people don't understand why I'm cirtical against the CoN for an example. I really would be happy if people would have changed their mind, but out of my experience it is very hard to believe in it. There wasn't even feedback given back by associations all the years before, now when they see what can happen if there are other people who think they can run FISTF, they are interested to save FISTF. I fear as soon as the delegates found the right people, the interest will go back again, but of course I hope that I'm wrong.
The only thing I'm positive about is the sports commission, I hope the next sports director will install that usefool tool again.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:36 pm

drastis wrote:"Των οικιών υμών εμπιμπραμένων υμείς άδετε".

This is an Ancient Greek saying, which means: While your houses are burning, you are singing!

Instead of trying to get rid of the "provisional" and "professional" BoD, you are talking whether it is time to incorporate old subbuteo in FISTF!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked

I just threw in an idea. Do not shoot me.
Some houses may not be burning drastis.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  drastis on Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:33 pm

panagios wrote:I just threw in an idea. Do not shoot me.
Some houses may not be burning drastis.

FISTF is our house. And it is burning like the sun. And I think you DO care...

PS: I did not shoot you or anyone else.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Subbuteo on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:30 pm

Admin wrote:
panagios wrote:I fail to see what is wrong with different disciplines under the same umbrella , but I have been wrong in the past

as for programs, I see them as a must
FIFA is in chare of football but also futsal. Right now, I just wonder if FISTF would be able to run both FISTF rules and old subbuteo rules circuits... Question

Who thinks that old subbuteo could be run by FISTF Question
Are you aware that Mr. De Francesco tried to introduce old subbuteo in the italian federation and failed pathetically?

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:38 pm

I totally agree that the "old subbuteo" movement has to be interested by such a proposal. I'm not sure it's the case. I like the fact the "old subbuteo" movement is more based on friendship and having fun than having competitions and rankings. Too much competition is dangerous!
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Janus_Gersie on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:38 pm

Subbuteo wrote:Who thinks that old subbuteo could be run by FISTF Question
Are you aware that Mr. De Francesco tried to introduce old subbuteo in the italian federation and failed pathetically?

... I think anybody outside Italy knows that. But I am quite sure that the majority of the 1000 members of FISCT is playing Old Subbuteo ....
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Subbuteo on Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:06 pm

Admin wrote:I totally agree that the "old subbuteo" movement has to be interested by such a proposal. I'm not sure it's the case. I like the fact the "old subbuteo" movement is more based on friendship and having fun than having competitions and rankings. Too much competition is dangerous!
Well, old subbuteo is born because FISCT treated players interested in "just having fun" as poor boys. So you can imagine where, after a couple of years and a movement in constant grown, old subbuteo suggested FISCT could stick their proposal to become part of the federation... Evil or Very Mad
old subbuteo have nothing against table soccer (the OSC Milan club share the same hall with TSC Stella Artois), but i think is not interested to join any table soccer federation because the goals are, as you pointed out, quite different.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Subbuteo on Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:13 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Subbuteo wrote:Who thinks that old subbuteo could be run by FISTF Question
Are you aware that Mr. De Francesco tried to introduce old subbuteo in the italian federation and failed pathetically?

... I think anybody outside Italy knows that. But I am quite sure that the majority of the 1000 members of FISCT is playing Old Subbuteo ....

I don't think so. Very few fisct players plays in old subbuteo meeting. Paolo Fina was in Turin last September, Morgan Croce played in some events. But it's true that some fisct members leaved the federation to play old.

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