A game or a sport?

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A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:27 am

Looking at the open letter from the Italian and Spanish associations, I realize it's complicated to find an agreement between associations. It seems that some people are focused about making table football a sport and I respect that. I just believe the majority of players is not really interested about it. Tha majority of players just wants to play, to have fun, to have tournaments, to meet friends,... That's the priority of the players.

What would happen if we want to become a "professional sport"? I read somewhere the idea is to have tournaments for 16 players in perfect conditions and to have TV involved? Not only I don't believe table football will ever be "live" on channels such as Eurosport (because it's complicated and boring) but also I'm worried of what the direction of the international movement would be. Right now we have a chance to have a circuit where all players can be part of the world rankings. If we swith to a "elite tour", what would happen to the "2nd class players"? Will they still have a chance to be involved in a "world tour"?

If we want to become a sport, are we ready to make all the necessary steps to get more credibility? I'm talking about forbidding players to drink and smoke during tournaments. I'm talking also about having doping controls to be sure that some players are not "under influence". I really don't believe we are ready for that.

As I wrote on the italian forum (and I think I was misunderstood), table football is not a sport. It's "a game that needs to be run as a sport". I don't think we can compare table football to many other games/sports. Comparred to chess, Magic the Gathering, bowls, darts,... we are extremely small. We just need to make sure table football is run again properly. I don't see the point to say we need to be "a sport" while FISTF is totally unable for the moment to have a website, a newsletter and an updated calendar, which are the basic keys to success.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:35 am

It's a good question. I think that if this game really has the potential to be sport, which we will see in the future, then it will be a sport when the time is right. Nothing like this can be done by forcing.

The goal for FISTF should be to promote, grow, spread, unite and administrate. For these goals it makes no difference what we call the game/sport. The important thing should be to do these things as well as possible.

The semantics of the word sport is very difficult. I have never seen any clear explanation or determination for this. So what on earth is the point in even discussing what this should be called?

For the record a quote from the tv series Black Adder (with Rowan Atkinson):

"Like private parts of the gods are we. They play with us for their sport."

Admin wrote:
What would happen if we want to become a "professional sport"? I read somewhere the idea is to have tournaments for 16 players in perfect conditions and to have TV involved? Not only I don't believe table football will ever be "live" on channels such as Eurosport (because it's complicated and boring) but also I'm worried of what the direction of the international movement would be. Right now we have a chance to have a circuit where all players can be part of the world rankings. If we swith to a "elite tour", what would happen to the "2nd class players"? Will they still have a chance to be involved in a "world tour"?

I think that we have to explore all the possibilities and ideas better than before. This could be a solution to ease those who see this as a potential sport for the tv. If we find players who are interested in this, and people to make this happen, then why not?

It would be excellent promotion. When you see the snooker stars playing in tv, you want to play yourself. But there are still all the amateur and hobby players that were there before the tv. But getting to tv with a good product made snooker grow with a bang as a hobby. Even though it's very difficult to play and to practice easily (you can't normally have a table at home), and it's an extremely difficult game to play on a level that makes any connection to the game in tv.

To have an elite tour of about 8 tournaments, as a carefully designed product with some changes in the rules to make it more interesting and fast, takes almost nothing away from the normal calendar. Only those 16 players would probably play a bit less tournaments in the normal circuit.

If it works, it's perfect promotion. If not, then we can learn from it. And at least the players and people involved have got super tournaments, and great experience in organising. The major pro would be that there would be something for the people who see the future like this, and we would still keep the old system running.

Admin wrote:If we want to become a sport, are we ready to make all the necessary steps to get more credibility? I'm talking about forbidding players to drink and smoke during tournaments. I'm talking also about having doping controls to be sure that some players are not "under influence". I really don't believe we are ready for that.

For example banning valium or other nerv-calming medicines would be a must. And I don't see the possibility to make the tests needed. Alcohol is easy compared to those.

This is also a reason for the next sentence (below).

Admin wrote:As I wrote on the italian forum (and I think I was misunderstood), table football is not a sport. It's "a game that needs to be run as a sport".

This is a good point at the moment.

And for me personally, becoming a sport instead of a game is just changing a word. It doesn't change anything else in what we do.

So I really see this as a semantical difference that people have. Explained already above.

And I also see this as a cultural difference. In some cultures these external things are more important than in others (for example the protestant, especially scandinavian protestant, church compared to orthodox or catholic). A small practical example are the cheap plastic trophys, that we finns consider irrelevant, but many others consider important. The same goes for the word sport, which for some people brings more value, but for others nothing changes.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:23 am

In my personal view Vincent asked THE key-question of all the issues we are discussing at the moment.

Are we a game or are we a sport?

The whole situation reminds me a lot of the situation in Germany 15+ years ago. The same question, the same scenario (on a different level though) and the same aim for 'professionalism' - the result in Germany was to loose at least 50% of the active players at that time...

But - and this is my point in this topic - since then, since more than 15 years, nobody could explain me, WHY we want to be a 'sport'?

Vesa already gave a good analysis, but still I can't see the need of being a 'sport'.
To become a sports-association is an act of bureaucracy with different difficulties in each country, which could be masterd or not...
But to become a 'sport' means far more and you do not only need to have a certain amount of active players (no matter whether they are playing official tournaments or not) the 'game' has to be well known and ACCEPTED as a sport in public - and not only by the players!
For Germany that would mean that the 80 players have to convince the other 80 millions (of whom a big majority has not even ever heard about the 'game') that they are a sport...!
This is only 1 million per player, quite a lot of work especially in a country where Darts has a certain popularity on TV but is hardly considered as a sport!
So not even a good TV coverage would turn us into a sport. I do not even know whether it would help or if it would even convince people more than ever that we are NOT a sport, when they can see what we are doing, no matter whether we are wearing sports clothes or not.
A good TV coverage would definitely help to make the 'game' more popular and that is what would help far more than being a 'sport' - but still this would not help anything without having the game available in the shops!

So the question still is: WHY?
What are the advantages of being a sport?
If it helps us to get better and cheaper venues, I have no problem to call it a sport.
But if it is only to let grow some egos, I would clearly deny it.

Looking forward to your answers,
Marcus



P.S.: reading another thread I found a name, very well known in Germany from some 15 years ago... Rolling Eyes
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  zinga on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:04 am

von K. wrote:
Admin wrote:As I wrote on the italian forum (and I think I was misunderstood), table football is not a sport. It's "a game that needs to be run as a sport".

This is a good point at the moment.

And for me personally, becoming a sport instead of a game is just changing a word. It doesn't change anything else in what we do.
I totally agree! Actually, I assume that TF would be better accepted as a well organized game than sport. For example, Magic the Gathering organizes a lot more professional circuit than FISTF. Still it is a (card) game, not sport. It is all down to things that Vincent has highlighted: well organized tournaments, communication, promotion etc.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:49 am

It could be very important to be a recognized sport, but not out of personal interest for sure. Personally I don't care if table soccer is a sport or a game, but out of financial views it is not insignificant, if you are a recognized sport in your country or not.
Anyway the question of recognized sport one more time is down on the material available in shops.

We don't need to be part of the olympic family, some very popular sports are not olympic and they manage it to have a good coverage on TV.
Dart was mentioned here as an example. I heard a bit about the history of Dart, it is very simular to the current situation of FISTF.
The PDC which organized right now the World Championships is a result of a split from the WDF. Players like Phil Taylor (15 time WC) wanted to become profis, which was not possible in the WDF because of the low prize money and the poor promotion, which didn't make it possible to find sponsors. So there were some people who created the PDC only for that reason and today they fill the O2 arena in London with the Premiere League in Dart for an example. The WC Adrian Lewis got 200.000 pound for his WC title. Sky reported from the event every day.
If you have a look on the starter field you will see that it isn't interesting from where the players are, people only want to see good dart. About 90 percentage of the players are from the UK and the Netherlands where Dart is very popular, but it doesn't matter. The reason is that those players play many tournaments on the European Tour, so local players can play at the German Dart Championships against Phil Taylor for an example, even if the local players don't have any chance, people are interested in seeing Phil Taylor. Phil Taylor on the other side plays the events because of the prize money.

Out of that very simular string of actions I think we have to ask the following questions.

Are the Majors the right instrument to attract medias and sponsors?
Do we need smaller and more exclusive tournaments with the best players additionally to the weel-known system where all players can take part?
Do we want a seperate association with all those players who want to be profi?
Do we want to take the risk that those players continue outside of FISTF and FISTF will be the same like WDF today (nobody knows them, but many people know the PDC)?
What can we do to satisfy both sides?

Of course with changing that we surely will loose the best players on the current circuit, but we have some pros who can do much better promotion because then it is their job.
The WC could be something where the pros and amateurs come together once a year and play a great event, which then will attract more media and sponsors too because of the pros. Having a sense for those people who want more than playing a game FISTF could benefit from too.

One more time I want to point out, that there is a big, but important difference, which first has to be clearified. Dart is available in every sport store so people know it already. Nobody should think that Dart was sent on TV before it was sold in sport stores and became popular. You need to be known well first before you are interesting for TV.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:28 pm

I like this thread. It has good arguments and points.

Heinz, your point is good. However it doesn't matter in your example if this is a sport or not. this can be achieved and done without becoming a sport, but being a well organised game.

Darts has one clear difference to us, though. It has been in pubs as a time-killer and amusement for decades. It (and similar games with different boards) is also very common in cottages etc. I would bet that at least 10 million (I'm sure that I'm guessing one 0 too small number) people had a "hobby" of throwing darts (or similar) before even the WDF was created. Throwing things to a target is one of the most ancient competitions of mankind along with running. In the stone ages the most accurate thrower was the leading hunter. So it's a bit different to promote something like that. Very simple, and in our genes.

But I'm not saying that a pro tour or something should not be tried, if there are people to do this.

However this has got nothing to do with being a sport or a game. And I don't oppose any single country becoming an official sport inside the country.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  kechris on Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:05 pm

Why many people want to call "sport" the table soccer?
Because they want more respect for the game.
But the title "sport" is not enough to give more respect in a table game.
Monopoly, Zenga, Scrabble, Master Mind, backgammon are more popular games but none asked to call them sports. Chess are very popular table game but it isn't sport.
What is the best opponent of table soccer? Pro-evolution and fifa in pc ps xbox and wii. When your worst opponents are not sport so why table soccer is sport?
We lost our time in fool questions like "to be or not be" and we haven't sport director we haven't handbook we haven't clear rules and finally WE HAVEN'T FUTURE but we have Catania Koutroumano Collins to decide for 3000 players in world !!!
Congratulations.
You find the meaning of life...
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:19 am

One thing I don't like when we compare table football to other "big games/small sports" is that in table football, there is a difficult limit between "playing with the rules" and cheating". In bowling, darts, snooker, it's impossible to cheat. In table football, some attitudes are a disaster. 2 clear exemples from the last WC:
- the Open final (Samuel Bartolo's attitude)
- the U19 semi-final (Spain vs Germany)
These 2 situations wee just disgusting. I don't see many other sports when we see things like that... Evil or Very Mad
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:58 am

@Heinz:
Sure, there MAY be some advantages in some countries if we are a 'sport' ... but:
If the people in Romania have an advantage when their association is a 'sports' association and the people in Iceland haven't, why do the Icelandic people do need to have a 'sports' association?
In table football subbuteo-'players' could always take part with subbuteo-'athletes' in the same competition and there were never problems because of that.
So WHY should some countries be forced to become a 'sport'?

@Kostas:
thumbs up...!

@Vincent:
May be you've found the reason:
Being a 'sport' as a legitimation for professional cheating. A complete new definition of the word 'sportsmanship'... Sad

@Vesa:
at the end we come again to the conclusion that the game has to be in the shops first, then it has to gain popularity (with the help of tv-coverage or just with adverts on tv for the game: TotalSoccer is a game which wants to be sold), with that we hope to recruit members for the national associations and THEN we may turn it into a sport.
But still: therefor we need the acceptance in public and that is very hard to get:
I liked your example with floorball because I had the pleasure to work together with a German international player in our youth center. Funny enough their association has kind of same problems like we have in Germany, mainly because of a lack of popularity.
If you show anybody in Germany what they are doing only for practising and let this person compare with what we are doing even on the best organized tournaments, the judgement (in Germany) would be very easy to be foreseen: "Floorball is a sport, table football is not..." - would be interesting to know if you get the same results in ... let's say: Italy Cool
But officially, we are almost on the same level, because neither of our associations is member of the DOSB, the German head-association for all sports-associations...

Writing that and although Vesa made a very good approach, I asked myself another question: WHEN are we a sport?? Who will decide that?
Catania? alien
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  kechris on Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:40 am

Admin wrote:One thing I don't like when we compare table football to other "big games/small sports" is that in table football, there is a difficult limit between "playing with the rules" and cheating". In bowling, darts, snooker, it's impossible to cheat. In table football, some attitudes are a disaster. 2 clear exemples from the last WC:
- the Open final (Samuel Bartolo's attitude)
- the U19 semi-final (Spain vs Germany)
These 2 situations wee just disgusting. I don't see many other sports when we see things like that... Evil or Very Mad

Yesterday in Greece we played the Greek cup for teams. I played against Gauci and he used a keeper more fat than me. I USED THE PACHYMETER and his keeper was 22.5 mm width 1.5 mm more than rules allows. The rod was 4.5 mm, the limit is 4 mm. In half time i asked to change but he used again in all next matches. He stopped with his hand one my tet a tet shoot in last seconds of first half and he didn't know the first rule for the flick!
1.1.2 Playing figures may not be knocked, pushed, nudged or scraped along nor may any leverage be gained other than from the playing surface. The flicked playing figure shall instantaneously leave the nail of the used finger. The player's hand and lower forearm may not move during the flick. Propelling the figure without touching the playing figure's base is not allowed.
When i saw to use again the FRANKESTEIN keeper i said him that is unfair. He said that he didn't care because and the others use illegal keepers! I told him that we must play fair no for the others but for us. So for him because he is not the only unfair player he can use the illegal keeper against ALL opponents!!!
Mr Catania table soccer is olympic sport in Malta and that player is member of your national team?
I am proud so much because table soccer is not olympic sport in Greece.
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:01 am

Marcus Tilgner wrote:But officially, we are almost on the same level, because neither of our associations is member of the DOSB, the German head-association for all sports-associations...

And yet this sport has many full professional players in Finland and in Sweden (maybe also in Czech Republic and Switzerland), and has 200 000 officially licensed players in those countries. This shows the problem of trying to put all the countries, or a global federation, under the same label.

Italy should try to convince their authorities to see TF as a sport. Why not, if they think it's beneficiary. I just think that FISTF should not be put under pressure to do so.

In some countries chess is a sport, in some others it is not. Why can not the TF be like this?

By the way, I don't see how chess is a sport. But it is a magnificent game, and the better players deserve huge respect.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:Writing that and although Vesa made a very good approach, I asked myself another question: WHEN are we a sport?? Who will decide that?
Catania? alien

That's the problem as most of us know. We can not force this. It happens when, or if, the time and the game is right.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:20 am

There was the final of the world cup darts tonight on Eurosport and that was good fun to watch. Much more enjoyable than watching a table football game in reality...
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:03 am

Same discussion again and again. This is what is boring.

Have both amateur and profi assocs under the umbrella of FISTF. Let the "profis" set their own rules and impose bigger participation (membership) fees and fines. Use very strict discipline in case of non-participation or omission of refereeing. Set the standards for the tournaments. Reduce the international tournaments and increase the national ones for the amateur division.

Should anyone wish to respect the "profi" rules, he is welcome to join.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:19 am

thx that's exactly the point I wanted to point out with the example of dart.
It is our all decision if we have to split because we can't accept that some players want more than "just" playing a game or if we try to stay together and take a possible profit out of the "pros".


panagios wrote:Same discussion again and again. This is what is boring.

Have both amateur and profi assocs under the umbrella of FISTF. Let the "profis" set their own rules and impose bigger participation (membership) fees and fines. Use very strict discipline in case of non-participation or omission of refereeing. Set the standards for the tournaments. Reduce the international tournaments and increase the national ones for the amateur division.

Should anyone wish to respect the "profi" rules, he is welcome to join.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:07 am

Same discussion?? I think not. Here we are still discussing the whys .....

A concept before discussing the whys:

Being sport has nothing to do with the "professionalization" of the players. Most sports are sports world ... without being professional players.

The main problem with table football world is this vision that we apply to the players. Any players interested in playing, results, and that's it.

Why should we be sport?

- Because the recognition as a sport (or sport) is critical to access government grants in many countries.

- Because we need to start worrying about giving a federal diploma to those who want to teach table football.

- Because you can access public space at attractive prices.

- Because we can find sponsors in a serious and coordinated.

- Because we need a class paid independent arbitration.

- Because we need an organism that deals with the rules to be independent.

- Because we need our materials are considered "sports" and not a toy and is at this time.

- Because we need clubs and associations "real" and not just groups of 4 friends to the bar.

- Because we need leaders who think like managers rather than players.

- Because we need visibility, and to be sport.......helps.

- Because fore the media we are a toy.

- Because to potential sponsors are just a toy for adults stupid.

- Because become a serious sport the only way to secure our future.

All this is not incompatible with a serious communication and an organized schedule.


The way the sport is not a fad, is the change in mentality that has made our game and non calls, in 2011, with over 60 years of history, yet explain who we are.

Besos para todos.


Piero



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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Janus_Gersie on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:13 am

von K. wrote:Italy should try to convince their authorities to see TF as a sport.

Well, just to give you an overview on how to be accepted as sport in Germany:
1. Organisational
We would need regional associations in all 16 states (up and running, not only on the paper!).
These regional associations together would build "THE german association".

2. Members
More than 10,000 active members

3. Admin
We would need an expert opinion about TF being a sport. As you can imagine this expertise will take long time and cost a hell lot of money.

After having done our homework we would be accepted as a member in the "DOSB" (German body of all sports and olympic activities)

4. Admin
The acceptance as a sport does not automatically lead to an acceptance of the state authorities. But that's to much to write it down here.

In general no acceptance of the meaning "association" (Germany only knows the legal meaning of "clubs" (like in Austria). Only professional corporations (like lawyers, doctors etc) can build associations. Even the "DFB" (German Soccer Association) is legally a club!

Conclusion 1: Even FISCT with its tremendous number of members would not be accepted as a sports association in Germany.
Conclusion 2: Discussions about professional developments are ridiculous at this stage

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:22 am

Perfect! We know what to do in Germany.

Now the question is, do you want?

Sport is becoming an end goal. It is ridiculous to speak today.

What is ridiculous and not intende that will go to the Moon have to believe we can fly.

And it all begins taking the first step. We lost 15 years.

It is a simple matter of vision.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:45 am

So Piero, bottom line is that the sport issue is an issue of money: sponsorships, place in the shelves, tv money, government grants. Since I and many like me pay quite a lot of money for their hobby/game and expect nothing from it, and since some others want a piece of the cake, why should I pay for them to make money? this is why I say, make two gernes of TF, and let those who want to be profis (seek glory), along with manufacturers of equipment (seek money) take the cost of making TF a sport.

This is why you have amateur and pro football.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:10 pm

Money is not the problem. Maybe he can be a target entered many years.

That has to do with this discussion a division in amateur and pro?

We're talking about federations. The existence and organization of the FIBA, FIFA, IBF, etc FIS. does not prevent your self I get together with some friends and play basketball ...

We are confusing, and much, personal arguments with the accountability that we attribute to the FISTF.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  panagios on Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:50 pm

since you seem to have a complete plan (at least in your mind), what exactly are your vision and ideas?

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Admin on Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:31 pm

pierocapponi wrote:- Because the recognition as a sport (or sport) is critical to access government grants in many countries.
Yes but if rules are rules (like in germany to get 10.000 active members), what can we really hope?

pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need to start worrying about giving a federal diploma to those who want to teach table football.
It's extremely difficult to find people ready to take care of young players. Don't you think it will be even more difficult if you ask from this people to have degrees to "teach" table football?

pierocapponi wrote:- Because you can access public space at attractive prices.
Really?

pierocapponi wrote:- Because we can find sponsors in a serious and coordinated.
Really?

pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need a class paid independent arbitration.
Seriously?

pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need our materials are considered "sports" and not a toy and is at this time.
Do we need to be a sport for that? The material for playing darts is available in many sports shops despite darts are not really a sport.

pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need clubs and associations "real" and not just groups of 4 friends to the bar.
What makes the difference betwee being friends who play for fun and being a real club? For instance, how is Madrid Total Soccer a real club while almost all your players are veterans???

pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need leaders who think like managers rather than players.
A good manager understands the needs of the players!

pierocapponi wrote:- Because to potential sponsors are just a toy for adults stupid.
Many players think the same. If you ask yourself "do you really want your kids to be table football players?", many people will answer you "I'd prefer they play a real sport like football or athletics first".

pierocapponi wrote:- Because become a serious sport the only way to secure our future.
???????????

pierocapponi wrote:The way the sport is not a fad, is the change in mentality that has made our game and non calls, in 2011, with over 60 years of history, yet explain who we are.
10 years ago, I heard many people sayin "table football will be dead in the next 5 years" and what happened? Since 2002, the number of players int he world rankngs has doubled. I think it's not too bad. And the only reason is that FISTF created a better circuit where all types of players feel welcome. They don't need anything else...
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:27 pm

What makes the difference betwee being friends who play for fun and being a real club? For instance, how is Madrid Total Soccer a real club while almost all your players are veterans???

Vincent, the Madrid Total Soccer, which has registered 2 teams to Mons, which did not exist two years ago, which involves the Vicente Calderon Stadium, which has 18 players at this time, ranking it first Spanish to 31/12/10, with a balance to 14.000 euro for years with 5 sponsors .... it joins school children whole, directed by Anselmo Nunez, with 30 players under 12, sub 15, which gives class of Table Soccer two days a week, in the afternoon.

Anytime I send the photos.

If all the teams will work as the Madrid Total Soccer table football would be a serious matter.

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  zinga on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:35 pm

Admin wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:- Because we can find sponsors in a serious and coordinated.
Really?
Admin wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need our materials are considered "sports" and not a toy and is at this time.
Do we need to be a sport for that? The material for playing darts is available in many sports shops despite darts are not really a sport.
In my opinion, this all is not about TF being a sport. It is all about having better organized competitions and before anything about money. You get sponsors if you have credible (one could say professionally) organized circuit and credible information and communication policy. We don't have that.

What comes to the money issue, there is a question: Where does the money (and sponsors motivations to sponsor) come from? It comes from revenue proposals. Take an example of two card games Magic The Gathering (MtG) and Poker. Neither is sport. There is an estimated six million players of MtG and they buy cards constantly as you need new cards for a draft tournament (in TF you can buy one team and play ten years with the team). Thus, the producer of the MtG cards (Wizards of the Coast) can organize the Pro Tour, a circuit of tournaments, where the top prize at a single tournament is around 30,000 euro. As of 2009 Wizards of the Coast has given out more than 30 million USD in prizes at various professional tournaments. You can find MtG cards from almost every bookstore in Finland.

What about Poker? If online poker revenues in 2004 were $2.4 billion you can guess if there is money to organize tournaments professionally and to sponsor.

(Numbers from Wikipedia)
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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  von K. on Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:36 pm

Exactly, Zinga.

And to underline the fact that the word sport doesn't really do anything, are all the sport disciplines that are small in many countries and have trouble finding money.

For example I can mention the oldest olympic team sport water polo. In some countries it's very big, but in may countries it is not. In Finland it's not big, and people don't know much about it. It doesn't help that it is part of the national swimming federation. Water polo in Finland can get some small sponsorhip money, but the players from the top teams pay for training hours, travelling to games etc. It has not grown at all in the last 30 years. The sport label doesn't help at all, even though I personally know one guy who was as passionate as any of the TF people, and could sell a freezer to a polar bear.

So, as many have said, the game has to be in the shops first. Then it has to become well known. And then it will survive. It has nothing to do with beiing a sport.

And many of the things Piero mentioned are related to the country in question. So there is no problem for Spain or Italy to become a sport in their countries, if they have the possibilities for it. But FISTF has got nothing to do with that, and it will definitely kill FISTF if this would be a must for everyone.

So, please, let's concentrate on the matters of today, and on the matters of near future first. This really isn't the issue at the moment. As also Piero has said.

zinga wrote:
Admin wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:- Because we can find sponsors in a serious and coordinated.
Really?
Admin wrote:
pierocapponi wrote:- Because we need our materials are considered "sports" and not a toy and is at this time.
Do we need to be a sport for that? The material for playing darts is available in many sports shops despite darts are not really a sport.
In my opinion, this all is not about TF being a sport. It is all about having better organized competitions and before anything about money. You get sponsors if you have credible (one could say professionally) organized circuit and credible information and communication policy. We don't have that.

What comes to the money issue, there is a question: Where does the money (and sponsors motivations to sponsor) come from? It comes from revenue proposals. Take an example of two card games Magic The Gathering (MtG) and Poker. Neither is sport. There is an estimated six million players of MtG and they buy cards constantly as you need new cards for a draft tournament (in TF you can buy one team and play ten years with the team). Thus, the producer of the MtG cards (Wizards of the Coast) can organize the Pro Tour, a circuit of tournaments, where the top prize at a single tournament is around 30,000 euro. As of 2009 Wizards of the Coast has given out more than 30 million USD in prizes at various professional tournaments. You can find MtG cards from almost every bookstore in Finland.

What about Poker? If online poker revenues in 2004 were $2.4 billion you can guess if there is money to organize tournaments professionally and to sponsor.

(Numbers from Wikipedia)

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Re: A game or a sport?

Post  mikeburns on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:34 pm

i've started to play darts instead.

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Re: A game or a sport?

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