Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  panagios on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:21 pm

MassiveAttack wrote:You are sure that Gibraltar, or India, or Australia, or Malaysia is the problem?


No one is talking about a problem here. We were discussing voting quotas. Apparently you have not read the earlier posts

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:29 pm

I want to bring up a game/sport to maybe have a more realistic perspective on things. The game is floorball (roughly a hybrid between hockey and ice hockey).

45000 licensed/registered players in Finland. 350000 practitioners of the sport (and its easier unofficial version) according to a survey made in 2006.

125000 licensed players in Sweden in the season 2009-10.

What is the requirement to be full member with equal rights in IFF (the international floorball federation)? 10 clubs and a national championship! Compare these figures to our game and requirements that have been suggested by some.

The IFF has now about 100 member nations, and it (and its biggest nations) is actively helping the small nations to develop. But still the sport is very small as professional sport and not even close to being a "true" sport, with ridiculous results in the World Cups (like 39-0).

This prompted the first president of the IFF (founded in the early 1980's) András Czitrom to criticise the current leaders of being too keen on becoming an olympic sport, instead of growing at the natural pace of the sport, and doing the groundwork first (sorry but the link is in swedish: http://www.hbl.fi/text/sport/2010/12/12/w55841.php ).

What should be learned from this? That even a game that can without a doubt be considered as a sport, and has these kinds of figures (the second most played game in both Finland and Sweden after football) does not turn its back on small nations, does not have unrealistic demands, and should keep its feet on the ground.

It's clear FISTF and TF in general have to aim to grow. But the way the whole issue is seen by some people, is either ridiculous, unrealistic, destructive or all of these.

We are all on the grassroots compared to any real sport. And still we have people who think that exclusion is more important than inclusion.


Last edited by von K. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:32 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
I think we need a new system of voting generally too. I can particullary understand bigger nations, but maybe they need to see how big they are in reality, so my proposal for a voting system is the following. The number of payers in the WR related to the number of population in a country should show how many votes an association should get at a Congress. Only to give you all an impression, if we would say an association gets for each % 1 vote, all association would stay on 1 vote.

Not good. China or India compared to Monaco. In China 100000 players would equal Monaco's 30 players (based on rough inaccurate estimations of population). What would be the possibility to have 30 monegasques participating in a FISTF event even abroad compared to 100000 chinese!

Of course you 1% limit would mean it will never be an issue, unless the Vatican will start registering players.

But the example of these countries highlights the unrealistic nature of anything based on pure numbers. There have to be other deciding factors (activity and interest in international matters for example), if we want to have different amount of votes for countries (in itself stupid idea for a global federation that wants to grow).

Otherwise I think you had many good points.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:39 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Why I do not agree with point 1?

Because FISTF must be impartial. We can not favor one product or another.

Heinz Eder wrote:
1. Support all associations to launch a product in stores

A misunderstanding, I think. What Heinz wrote means that any product should be supported.

So in general FISTF should support this. FISTF would not do it themselves. FISTF would only help with supplying material, information, contacts, promotional tools etc. The FISTF could have all the possible products listed, and they would just send this list to stores.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:13 pm

Admin wrote:Even the question to let players drink beers at tournament is not a real problem...

Who thinks Romario (the brazilian footballer) was not a sportsman? And yet this guy was always in a bar the night before a game, because he said he plays better like that.

In Finland there was a multiple olympic winner in the 1980's in ski jumping Matti Nykänen, who has widely been considered the best ever in his sport. He was an alcoholic, and won world cup competitions more than once being drunk, even claiming that sometimes he didn't even remember the jump afterwards.

And these are just examples of many, many athletes who also have alcohol while playing. Alcohol is not the problem in itself. It can be a problem, if it's excessive, also because of children involved. And it is a problem, if the referee is clearly drunk, or it causes disciplinary problems. But a much bigger problem regarding a sport status is the overall atmosphere in a tournament, with excessive noice and other distractions.

But in the end, becoming an official sport doesn't have to be a target. We have games which are thriving, but are considered games, not sports. As a sporting hobby I would not find this game very interesting (if choosing a sporting hobby), but as a game it is just that.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:30 pm

panagios wrote:Also, Vincent, do not compare Gibraltar with the other British countries because they are countries whereas Gibraltar is not. The definition of the term country is not for dispute.

I understand that FISTF has very few active member countries, but a certain level of legality is of paramount importance. Probably the only objection for Gibraltar will come from Spain (it is well known) but everyone should respect this objection. If this policy is applied, FISTF may end up being characterized as being plain uneducated.

Your argumentation doesn't ring through. Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Isalnds, Montserrat and Turks and Caicos Islands also have a status of british overseas territory, but are members of the FIFA. So the decision is purely FIFA's, or in our case FISTF's. FIFA and UEFA have not been logical about these memberships, because of politics. Gibraltar and Falkland Islands are not members because of politics.

FISTF doesn't have to do politics here, and if Spain TF association really are interested in growing the game, then they should accept Gibraltar. Or should we have a non-FISTF federation for these cases, like the non-FIFA that is in football.

FISTF is not obliged to follow any UN, or other, decisions regarding members. We can have in the statutes that Tibet, Greenland, Sapmi (Lapland) turkish Cyprus etc. are welcome, or value these case by case. Or we can exclude Gibraltar from FISTF activity, which really isn't very fruitful.

Below a text from Wikipedia (I'm sorry I didn't have time to confirm the info). It says clearly that Gibraltar have even played against Spain in football. They have also been a provisional member of the UEFA, but because of Spain they didn't get the full membership. And they are an autonomous region.

"The Gibraltar national football team represents Gibraltar in football competitions and is controlled by the Gibraltar Football Association. It is not yet a member of FIFA or UEFA and is therefore not eligible to enter the World Cup or the European Championship. Gibraltar applied for UEFA membership, but this was rejected by the UEFA Board in 2007. The issue has been referred to the Court of Arbitration for Sport for a ruling.

The history of the Gibraltarian national football side can be traced back to April 1923, when it traveled to Spain to play club side Sevilla in a friendly; two games were played and Gibraltar lost both.
"

So I can't see the reason for them to be excluded. The only reason would be Spain's objection. And I don't see that coming.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Admin on Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:31 pm

The more I read from Von K, the more I think he's the most intelligent person in the whole table football community. Von K is the best. Definately!!!!!
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:02 am

Admin wrote:The more I read from Von K, the more I think he's the most intelligent person in the whole table football community. Von K is the best. Definately!!!!!

Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

Great respect for Von.k, I've meet for first time in Rain: but I want to see this 10/12 people to sit e speak all around a table to discute and take a lot of epocal decision ... I think you are all people closed in your wall: and I talk about my "friends" and my "opponents" ... If there is possible this kind of people in a world like this of Subbuteo ...

Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral Neutral

I've read all precedent post, in my poor english, and I've discuss a lot in my country with many people and I live this problems, day by day, in my subbuteo-live : because in my little I give answers at questions ... or I try!!!!
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:27 am

Hi Massive Attack, it's great that you are also interested in this forum. It's very important to have more italian views here. And it's important more italians see what we write here.

MassiveAttack wrote: but I want to see this 10/12 people to sit e speak all around a table to discute and take a lot of epocal decision...

If I understand you correctly, I will answer this way.

I am speaking for a more professional approach to decisions. I believe this is what is wanted.

For example the italian situation and needs inside FISTF. I want to see a commission discussing and making proposals to FISTF about the italian views. This would not be FISCT, but would be created from a heterogenic group of italians from different parts and with different views.

Also I would like to see a top players commission, that would let FISTF know what the top players want from the rules etc.

In professionalism, and this is needed if we talk about a real sport, 10-12 people can discuss and develop things. It does not matter if they are of different opinion, if the chairman of the group can do his work.

If we have more people involved, then more people have influence, and decisions have more support.

If we don't have people who can do this kind of things, professionalism or becoming a global sport will never happen.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:33 pm

Hi friend!!

You know my point of view, and you know that I was several time against FISCT decisions: but now, in FISTF, I see only wall against wall and stop!

I think this: there is a lot of people that think table football like a sport. And this is a fact! And in Italy (but I think in Spain, Belgium, Germany, etc.) this people, in FISCT, are the 99%.
But, I know, there is a lot of people, that think on Table football like a simple game.

These people, however, organize events like Mons, or World Cup in Rain and you think: it's not possible this!

I can't think a table football like a game and to spend a lot of euro for going to playing a this game simple in other country from a lot of km of distance!!

There is an incongruence in my reasoning ... or is a my mistake!! Laughing

I hope to meet you, and all other friend in a tournament around the world!
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  kechris on Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:52 pm

I really cann't understand why you spend your time in front of a computer to solve the most simple problem in the world.
I cann't also understand why Catania and co continue to refuse to retire by FISTF as BoD members. They cann't understand that they are "persona non grata"? Are they happy as BoD members when ALL members of world community of table soccer are against them?
If their wifes ask divorce they will fight in courts to stop the divorce? But they cann't change by this way their wifes feelings... Catania's co is not lovely in table soccer community so they can gain our respect if they decide to leave FISTF as gentlemen!
The next day for FISTF?
IT IS SIMPLE.
The countries which have ACTIVE players ACTIVE clubs and organise international tournaments are fistf members. The represantives of these countries will vote for FISTF BoD. Which countries are really ACTIVE? The countries which send national teams in W.C !
I din't care who pay 100e i don't care for the political conditions for Gibraltar Monaco and Great Britain I CARE ONLY FOR TABLE SOCCER.
WE MUST HELP TOTAL SOCCER BECAUSE IS THE BEST OPPORTUNITY FOR THE FUTURE BUT WE MUST TAKE DECISIONS AS SOON IS POSSIBLE.
I don't care more for DeFrancesco's opinion (because he was BoD member and retired).
I think that the 13 presidents of Italy France Spain England Belgium Netherlands Finland Austria Germany Switzerland Greece Gibraltar Malta which took part in W.C must do a EGM as soon as possible TO ELECT THE NEW BoD.

please fast.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  kechris on Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:56 pm

p.s for me table soccer is a game. And i love to spend my money for travelling for my hobby. My father had hobby the fishing and he spent his money for his hobby. Many people spend their money for a hobby no for a sport.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:06 pm

kechris wrote:p.s for me table soccer is a game. And i love to spend my money for travelling for my hobby. My father had hobby the fishing and he spent his money for his hobby. Many people spend their money for a hobby no for a sport.

There is a lot of people that practice fishing sportive ... it isn't possible to condivide reasons who want to practice FISTF (International Federations of SPORT Table Football) like a sport? ... This is it's natural way when it born in Paris ... I suppose ...
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:09 pm

MassiveAttack wrote:These people, however, organize events like Mons, or World Cup in Rain and you think: it's not possible this!
There are many people who go to Mons or the World Cup in Rain and, after the tournament, they just say "we had a fantastic week-end". And I believe it's the very big majority of the players. This year, after the world cup in Rain, 90% of the comments said "it was a very good week-end". The only negative comments came from Italy.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:13 pm

MassiveAttack wrote:
kechris wrote:p.s for me table soccer is a game. And i love to spend my money for travelling for my hobby. My father had hobby the fishing and he spent his money for his hobby. Many people spend their money for a hobby no for a sport.

There is a lot of people that practice fishing sportive ... it isn't possible to condivide reasons who want to practice FISTF (International Federations of SPORT Table Football) like a sport? ... This is it's natural way when it born in Paris ... I suppose ...
I agree with Kechris on this. Table football is a great game, maybe more than just "a hobby". But to be taken as a sport, it's ridiculous. Many players don't practice on a regular base, they drink and smoke and some even take drugs during tournaments. Even if Von K's argument about sport & alcohol is totally valid, I really don't believe we can change the mentality of people enough to be taken seriously. The big majority of players like to go to tournaments and they don't expect more from FISTF than what they had till 2009: a circuit, tournaments, friendship, fun,... That the tournaments are "live" on TV would probably include too many restrictions that will prevent players to make efforts to keep on travelling.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:14 pm

Just at the end, things are becoming so crazy now that I understand why many of my friends prefer to play FIFA11 on the PS3 or WII or XBox instead of going to subbuteo tournaments... Andthat's a real drama.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  MassiveAttack on Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:20 pm

At the end of your reasoning, I can say some thinking:

This is one of the reasons, about my propose of discute around a table: to count people like sport and opponents and reserch common solutions.

In this moment is right only all Vincent's idea or Piero's idea and stop. Really it isn't find to found a common idea? You are all intelligent people and you can found an accord for playing all togheter, like sport, in a country where want to have a reconaissance from the state and other country where want only play and stop ...

You know that I work in table football with children and adult to, I assure to you that I play Subbuteo, Fifa and PES in equal time ... I'm not racist!!! ;-)

This aren't difficulty: are prospective ... learn to play FIFA and PES and try to invite to play Subbuteo! I'm sure you have a great satisfaction in term of promotion.

Work are in relations and, only after, in game (or sport ;-)): I think this!
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Lorenzo on Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:21 pm

Admin wrote:Table football is a great game, maybe more than just "a hobby". But to be taken as a sport, it's ridiculous. Many players don't practice on a regular base, they drink and smoke and some even take drugs during tournaments. Even if Von K's argument about sport & alcohol is totally valid, I really don't believe we can change the mentality of people enough to be taken seriously. The big majority of players like to go to tournaments and they don't expect more from FISTF than what they had till 2009: a circuit, tournaments, friendship, fun,... That the tournaments are "live" on TV would probably include too many restrictions that will prevent players to make efforts to keep on travelling.

Vincent,

it is possible that the big majority of Belgian players practise tablesoccer for friendship and fun, yet I believe most Italian players would readily accept the restrictions you list as necessary to become a sport. Besides, in Italy smoking is outlawed in public halls anyway, drinking alcohol during tournaments is uncommon, and I would rejoice to see dope controls enacted, since drugs use tends to spawn reprehensible outbursts.

I am more worried about the bureaucratization involved in the process of becoming a sport.

The real question is to find a way to reconcile such different frames of mind. What do you think about Marco de Angelis’ idea to set up a Mediterranean League open to all international players, organized along stricter, ‘professional’ guidelines, in order to allow different areas to pursue different approaches?

http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=16325&st=75
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Admin on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:20 pm

I am more worried about the bureaucratization involved in the process of becoming a sport.
We are in a situation where many organizers are unable to send tournaments resulmts in due time and in a correct format and where the FISTF Board is unable to update its own handbook so I really wonder how they could make further steps to get the recognition as a sport.

The real question is to find a way to reconcile such different frames of mind. What do you think about Marco de Angelis’ idea to set up a Mediterranean League open to all international players, organized along stricter, ‘professional’ guidelines, in order to allow different areas to pursue different approaches?
Marco has his view. OK about it but I don't think it's a good idea. The current situation seems to be some people saying "we are able to bring the game to the next level" so if they are ready to do it, they can try it without any problem. They should just organize this Mediterranean off the FISTF circuit. If it works, it will become big. if it doesn't work, it will die slowly. Personnally I really don't think it will work anyway... I just think we need the game to be run as it used to be till 2009. It was maybe not "professional enough" but at least the system was working and it was possible to run it by "amateurs".
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:16 am

MassiveAttack wrote:At the end of your reasoning, I can say some thinking:

This is one of the reasons, about my propose of discute around a table: to count people like sport and opponents and reserch common solutions.

In this moment is right only all Vincent's idea or Piero's idea and stop. Really it isn't find to found a common idea? You are all intelligent people and you can found an accord for playing all togheter, like sport, in a country where want to have a reconaissance from the state and other country where want only play and stop ...

You know that I work in table football with children and adult to, I assure to you that I play Subbuteo, Fifa and PES in equal time ... I'm not racist!!! ;-)

This aren't difficulty: are prospective ... learn to play FIFA and PES and try to invite to play Subbuteo! I'm sure you have a great satisfaction in term of promotion.

Work are in relations and, only after, in game (or sport ;-)): I think this!

Sorry, I understood wrong before. I thought you mean that 12 persons can not sit around a table to find answers. I should have known that you don't think that, because I've seen your opinions on the italian forum.

Yes, everything is possible. There should be more interest in finding out what people (players and actives in different places) need, and then also strong solutions could be found. By strong, I mean solutions that maybe sound strange for some people.

There is not 1 truth in many matters concerning FISTF. So open minds, and open ears, are needed.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Lorenzo on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:54 am

Admin wrote:We are in a situation where many organizers are unable to send tournaments results in due time and in a correct format and where the FISTF Board is unable to update its own handbook so I really wonder how they could make further steps to get the recognition as a sport.

I agree that the Catania board is an unprecedented disaster as far as the sport and communication departments are concerned, and a puzzling aspect in this weird situation.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  von K. on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:06 am

Lorenzo, I do think that the basic thought of Marco De Angelis is good. And that is simply: make use of this current development (especially in Italy).

I don't know if this would work. It's not possible to say from here, and there are no concrete plans for it at the moment.

But this should not be done as an official work of FISTF. Only with cooperation (for example with dates).

If FISTF wants to try something like this, it should be done in more countries, and it should be done in a smaller scale.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:16 am

Soft-facts like activity or interest in international matters will bring much bigger problems.
Who should decide about it?
What happens if the "wrong" people decide about that?

With the same number of vote for all you won't satisfy the bigger countries, the results are ideas like we can read it in the letter. Introduce stronger obligations for associations to become member to "get out" the smaller countries. Currently the smaller countries are those who turn the balance and that's a problem for bigger countries. The CoN shows it clearly I think.
I don't say my idea is the solution but you must start at a point to come closer to a compromise.

von K. wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
I think we need a new system of voting generally too. I can particullary understand bigger nations, but maybe they need to see how big they are in reality, so my proposal for a voting system is the following. The number of payers in the WR related to the number of population in a country should show how many votes an association should get at a Congress. Only to give you all an impression, if we would say an association gets for each % 1 vote, all association would stay on 1 vote.

Not good. China or India compared to Monaco. In China 100000 players would equal Monaco's 30 players (based on rough inaccurate estimations of population). What would be the possibility to have 30 monegasques participating in a FISTF event even abroad compared to 100000 chinese!

Of course you 1% limit would mean it will never be an issue, unless the Vatican will start registering players.

But the example of these countries highlights the unrealistic nature of anything based on pure numbers. There have to be other deciding factors (activity and interest in international matters for example), if we want to have different amount of votes for countries (in itself stupid idea for a global federation that wants to grow).

Otherwise I think you had many good points.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  hönkki on Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:40 pm

What about if there were own association for amateurs and own association for professionals ?
Or let's say own departments for both inside FISTF, which both would act rather independently.

After following conversations in this forum I have got the impression, that it is very hard to satisfy the needs of all players and all contries in the same time. Though, I have to say it is very positive that also Italy is demanding an EGM.

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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

Post  Admin on Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:01 pm

hönkki wrote:What about if there were own association for amateurs and own association for professionals ?
Or let's say own departments for both inside FISTF, which both would act rather independently.

After following conversations in this forum I have got the impression, that it is very hard to satisfy the needs of all players and all contries in the same time. Though, I have to say it is very positive that also Italy is demanding an EGM.
I fear it's exactly where we shall arrive if there is no solution found (and I don't see how to get an agreement). I believe if Italy & Spain want to have a "pro circuit", let's give them the chance to do it (it can be called "mediterranean circuit or whatever) and we could keep a FISTF circuit with proper communication like in the years 2002-2009 where every player in the world can be involved (with a world ranking, different types of events,...).

I stick to the fact it's NOT my wish but it's what I fear what could happen if the people from the South keep saying they want to be "so professional"...

Also, Piero Capponi wrote on the italian forum (http://www.subbuteoforum.it/public/forum/index.php?showtopic=16325&st=90&start=90) the next Board should be something as follows:

Catania= Segretario (lo sa fare e molto bene, si è studiato tutte gi statuti come nessuno, deve avere solo più continuità.)
Coppenolle= Comunicazione (e chi meglio di lui?)
Koutrumanos= Marketing (ha i contatti, le capacità, e l'energia. In questo momento sta in un posto non suo.)
De Francesco= Sport (Stefano ha idee e coraggio per portarle avanti, insieme a Pedearsen ranking, Eder calendario, Gazzoldi regole, Papini materiali, Martinez capo arbitro internazionale. 5 nomi di assoluta garanzia nei loro settori.).
Guerrero= Finanze (con Pinausi revisore dei conti). Jose Carlos è inteligente, equilibrato, super-partes e onesto. Marco è una garanzia per tutti a livello mondiale per serietà, dedicazione e preaparazione.

Il presidente? con questo board lo potrebbe fare chiunque. Il presidente dovrebbe avere solo un ruolo rappresentativo. Avrei potuto farlo anch'io se si fosse capito che a me piace fondamentalmente lavorare in positivo.

If that's really the wish of Spain & Italy, it will definately be a failure because:
- Catania has already been a failure as Secretary in 2009 (he always wanted to decide everything alone and we know where this leaded FISTF...)
- De Francesco has been a failure as sports director (he only wants to impose his views on others)
- Koutromanos is a total failure: we can not have someone who has so many personal problems involved in international matters. Moreover, his experience as communication director has been a disaster.

So the future does not look bright...

Also, who can be better than Olivier Père or Heinz Eder as sports director? Nobody for sure.
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Re: Open letter from the italian and spanish associations

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