FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:38 am

then we have to ask, if we need to homologate such things like bases, if it is not possible to check if they are modified or not.
maybe we should leave the track to homologate generally by getting one sample, maybe we really should try to homologate material used directly at the events.

Heinz

von K. wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
I don't agree on that. Players shouldn't modify their equipment, especially when it is homologated by FISTF.

I think this is impossible to prevent or control. Many bases are unique and handmade (at least together from pieces). There are also at least 3 different plastics used, metal covered plastic etc. There are different angles for the bases edge. If someone makes an adjustement, how can you realistically see it? And how do you know if the anomality is made by the player or by the producer?

In most sports people can modify, invent and develop the equipment. The important thing is to remain inside the regulations. The same applies to our game/sport.

Measuring equipment in tournaments, if there are doubts, is much easier, and this is the way in most sports.

Homologation should be a guide for players, so they know which are legal for sure.

In an ideal world, people would not manipulate the equipment, and your idea would work. But in theory just changing the weight of the base can be manipulation, if the player doesn't put together the base in exactly the same way.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:39 am

Drastis with your plate it was also possible to put clue on the body of the keeper and the keeper would fit through your plate.

drastis wrote:
von K. wrote:The idea is that the FISTF makes the templates. They are marked with FISTF logo or something. Only the tournament organisers and the head referee need them. And of course producers, and players who want to modify their 'keepers.

Dear Vesa. More than two years ago, I designed such a template, following an idea by Thossa who was in FISTF BoD back then. I even constructed one and tested it against every goalkeeper type available. FISTF BoD, namely Heinz Eder did not favour the idea, so it was never realised in a large scale.

I am still 100% convinced that such a template is the only solution, because it is the ONLY way to see if a goalkeeper has been tampered with.

A couple of simple questions to all the supporters of the "unique" goalkeeper: How can you be sure that this new perfect goalkeeper will not be "touched" by cheats??? What kind of material will this goalkeeper be made of, so that noone will be able to stretch it, put heavy coat of paint on it, bend it etc etc???? Will you let the human eye be your judge???

In every aspect of life we use measuring tools, meters, clocks, balances, speed counters etc. Is it so difficult to understand that THE ONLY WAY to be sure that you know the truth about the size of anything is to MEASURE IT???

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:48 pm

I DON'T CARE FOR GLUE BETWEEN THE LEGS AND HANDS.
I CARE FOR OUTSIDE DIMENSIONS.
THE PROBLEMS BEGAN WITH FISTF TEAMS AND TOCCER TEAMS.
PEOPLE IN FISTF DREAMEDEASY AND FAST MONEY BY NEW EQUIPMENT AND FORGOT THE GAME.

p.s. I CANN'T UNDERSTAND WHY TOTAL SOCCER TEAM WITH FULL LOGOS (EVEN THE SOCKS!)NUMBERS IN SHIRT AND SHORT NAMES AND ON THE DISCS COST 15e THE SAME PRICE WITH A SIMPLE METAL (ILLEGAL) KEEPER!!!

IF WE WANT NEW PLAYERS WE MUST THINKING AS AMATEURS NO AS PROFFECIONALS. BECAUSE EVERY NEW TABLE SOCCER PLAYER IS AN AMATEUR. I INSIST. EXRERIENCE IS THE MAGIC WORLD.


Last edited by kechris on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:58 pm

I cannot get the meaning of your last sentence.
also, I cannot understand the comparison of a Total soccer team and a metal keeper.

Can you elaborate please?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:25 pm

ΕΝΝΟΩ ΟΤΙ ΑΝ ΘΕΛΟΥΜΕ ΝΑ ΠΡΟΣΕΛΚΥΣΟΥΜΕ ΝΕΟ ΚΟΣΜΟ ΘΑ ΠΡΕΠΕΙ ΝΑ ΔΟΥΜΕ ΤΟ ΠΑΙΓΝΙΔΙ ΑΠΟ ΤΗΝ ΣΚΟΠΙΑ ΤΟΥΣ ΣΑΝ ΧΟΜΠΙΣΤΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΧΙ ΣΑΝ ΕΠΑΓΓΕΛΜΑΤΙΕΣ.
ΠΡΩΤΑ ΑΓΑΠΑΣ ΤΟ ΠΑΙΓΝΙΔΙ ΣΑΝ ΔΙΑΣΚΕΔΑΣΗ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΤΑ ΜΠΟΛΙΑΖΕΙ ΤΟ ΜΙΚΡΟΒΙΟ ΤΟΥ ΠΡΩΤΑΘΛΗΤΙΣΜΟΥ.

ΑΥΤΟ ΜΠΟΡΕΙ ΝΑ ΤΟ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΟΤΑΝ ΕΧΕΙ ΤΗΝ ΑΠΑΙΤΟΥΜΕΝΗ ΕΜΠΕΙΡΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΕΛΘΟΝ ΠΡΩΤΑ ΣΑΝ ΧΟΜΠΙΣΤΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΑΝ ΠΡΩΤΑΘΛΗΤΗΣ. ΔΕΝ ΜΠΟΡΕΙ ΚΑΠΟΙΟΣ ΠΟΥ ΔΕΝ ΕΧΕΙ ΠΑΡΑΣΤΑΣΕΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΠΟ ΤΟΥΣ ΔΥΟ ΡΟΛΟΥΣ ΝΑ ΜΠΟΡΕΣΕΙ ΝΑ ΠΑΝΤΡΕΨΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣ ΔΥΟ ΠΡΟΣΕΓΓΙΣΕΙΣ.

ΚΑΙ ΟΤΑΝ ΜΙΑ ΟΛΟΚΛΗΡΗ ΟΜΑΔΑ ΒΑΜΜΕΝΗ ΑΠΙΣΤΕΥΤΑ ΜΕ ΒΑΣΕΙΣ ΣΕ ΚΟΥΤΙ ΜΕ ΔΙΚΑΙΩΜΑΤΑ ΦΤΑΝΕΙ ΝΑ ΠΩΛΕΙΤΑΙ 15Ε ΠΩΣ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΕΝΑΣ ΜΕΤΑΛΙΚΟΣ ΑΠΛΟΣ ΑΒΑΦΤΟΣ ΤΕΡΜΑΤΟΦΥΛΑΚΑΣ ΠΟΥ ΠΩΛΕΙΤΑΙ ΧΥΜΑ ΝΑ ΕΧΕΙ ΤΗΝ ΙΔΙΑ ΤΙΜΗ ΚΑΙ ΝΑ ΕΧΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΖΗΤΗΣΗ; ΜΗΠΩΣ ΕΠΕΙΔΗ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΠΑΡΑΝΟΜΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΕΛΕΑΡ ΓΙΑ ΤΟΥΣ ΕΧΟΝΤΕΣ ΑΝΑΓΚΗ ΝΑ ΥΠΕΡΕΧΟΥΝ ΚΑΙ ΣΤΟΝ ΕΞΟΠΛΙΣΜΟ;

σε παρακαλω μεταφρασε το και στα αγγλικα να δεν βαριεσαι
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:30 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:then we have to ask, if we need to homologate such things like bases, if it is not possible to check if they are modified or not.
maybe we should leave the track to homologate generally by getting one sample, maybe we really should try to homologate material used directly at the events.

I think this is the right way. In most sports the equipment or other is checked in the competition or before a tournament. For example the weight of boxers and wrestlers, the studs in football shoes, the costumes of ski jumpers, the greasing on the skin of a water polo player etc.

At the same time with the 'keeper, templates could be made for other basic regulations of the bases and figures etc.

Suspect material (if not all) would be checked before the tournament, or if asked by the opponent/referee before the game. If a player after this uses illegal equipment, he will be disqualified and receives maybe additional punishment.

Heinz Eder wrote:Drastis with your plate it was also possible to put clue on the body of the keeper and the keeper would fit through your plate.

I don't know Drastis' template, but the idea is that you can make this. If that prototype didn't work for some 'keeper, maybe it was too big prototype. It's not very hard to divide the 'keeper into measurement points every 1mm (in all 3 dimensions), and have a maximum for measurement point of the 'keeper. With modern technology a computerised machine can cut it without problems after the maximum value for each measuring point has been set (I have the feeling that for example Horst Deimel would have this technology). After that everything that gets through all 3 templates (for 3 dimensions) is ok. No matter if there is glue or not.

There is no use blaming anyone for past decisions. Heinz saw a problem, and didn't accept that template. Maybe a new prototype would have corrected it. But it's not important now.

p.s. Sorry Kostas, I don't understand that dialect of greek language What a Face

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  drastis on Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:48 pm

von K. wrote:I don't know Drastis' template, but the idea is that you can make this. If that prototype didn't work for some 'keeper, maybe it was too big prototype. It's not very hard to divide the 'keeper into measurement points every 1mm (in all 3 dimensions), and have a maximum for measurement point of the 'keeper. With modern technology a computerised machine can cut it without problems after the maximum value for each measuring point has been set (I have the feeling that for example Horst Deimel would have this technology). After that everything that gets through all 3 templates (for 3 dimensions) is ok. No matter if there is glue or not.

There is no use blaming anyone for past decisions. Heinz saw a problem, and didn't accept that template. Maybe a new prototype would have corrected it. But it's not important now.

p.s. Sorry Kostas, I don't understand that dialect of greek language What a Face

My template was a hand-made tool, just to show that the idea could work. Of course it was not any professional construction and the design was such, that all goalkeepers types (even FISTF) could fit through it. It secured at least, that the keeper was no taller than normal and that hands were not stretched. A better effort could have had better results of course.

Heinz, you had a problem with the whole idea of measuring, if your problem was the quality or the efficiency of the tool you could have designed a better one...

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:33 am

Why are you taking it personal?
The problem with the measuring tool was that we have many different types of keepers and there wouldn't be any real possibility to check some modifications if it would be done by a player.
It would cost a lot of money to produce a measurment tool for every type of keeper cut by a laser and in the end the producers will explain that they need some tolerance because they can't produce exactly.
What was the problem to make the tool on your own and offer it to the players, or offer it to a producer? I think you can't say that FISTF is responsible for it that it wasn't used. Or would you like to have a homologation for that tool?
We never looked for an official FISTF measuring tool, but of course you were and are free to offer something like that on your own.

drastis wrote:
von K. wrote:I don't know Drastis' template, but the idea is that you can make this. If that prototype didn't work for some 'keeper, maybe it was too big prototype. It's not very hard to divide the 'keeper into measurement points every 1mm (in all 3 dimensions), and have a maximum for measurement point of the 'keeper. With modern technology a computerised machine can cut it without problems after the maximum value for each measuring point has been set (I have the feeling that for example Horst Deimel would have this technology). After that everything that gets through all 3 templates (for 3 dimensions) is ok. No matter if there is glue or not.

There is no use blaming anyone for past decisions. Heinz saw a problem, and didn't accept that template. Maybe a new prototype would have corrected it. But it's not important now.

p.s. Sorry Kostas, I don't understand that dialect of greek language What a Face

My template was a hand-made tool, just to show that the idea could work. Of course it was not any professional construction and the design was such, that all goalkeepers types (even FISTF) could fit through it. It secured at least, that the keeper was no taller than normal and that hands were not stretched. A better effort could have had better results of course.

Heinz, you had a problem with the whole idea of measuring, if your problem was the quality or the efficiency of the tool you could have designed a better one...

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:32 pm

The difficult point is not the tool but the rule.
I prepared a version of rule for keeper and if the new BoD wants i will send it in English (BY panagios translate).
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  drastis on Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:54 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Why are you taking it personal?
The problem with the measuring tool was that we have many different types of keepers and there wouldn't be any real possibility to check some modifications if it would be done by a player.
It would cost a lot of money to produce a measurment tool for every type of keeper cut by a laser and in the end the producers will explain that they need some tolerance because they can't produce exactly.
What was the problem to make the tool on your own and offer it to the players, or offer it to a producer? I think you can't say that FISTF is responsible for it that it wasn't used. Or would you like to have a homologation for that tool?
We never looked for an official FISTF measuring tool, but of course you were and are free to offer something like that on your own.

Nothing personal, Heinz! The tool could and still can check if any goalkeeper is oversized or modified. There would be no problem for someone to produce such a tool (as far as I know one Italian producer actually produced the tool after all), but if FISTF does not recognise the use of such a tool, then noone would accept its use, that's all.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:07 am

Of course FISTF should accept such a tool, I never said I don't accept that tool.
The tool can check several things, that's right, BUT as I already said, I don't think the tool can be used to be 100% sure that the keeper is not modified.
Of course it can only be good to have the possibility to check some general things, but to check the figure of a keeper, you need a pattern with every single type of homologated keeper cut by laser into plastic. With such a pattern you can be sure 100% that the keeper is not modified in any way.
If we want something like that the only possibility is to make one type of keeper, otherwise this pattern always needs to be changed when a new keeper is modified.
Kostas idea to change the rule for keepers is another way, in my opinion it would be much easier to make a pattern if the figure would be straight (like the sports figure keeper), not like now. Then people will loose the possibility to change the front of the figure (put some clue on it to make it fatter).

drastis wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Why are you taking it personal?
The problem with the measuring tool was that we have many different types of keepers and there wouldn't be any real possibility to check some modifications if it would be done by a player.
It would cost a lot of money to produce a measurment tool for every type of keeper cut by a laser and in the end the producers will explain that they need some tolerance because they can't produce exactly.
What was the problem to make the tool on your own and offer it to the players, or offer it to a producer? I think you can't say that FISTF is responsible for it that it wasn't used. Or would you like to have a homologation for that tool?
We never looked for an official FISTF measuring tool, but of course you were and are free to offer something like that on your own.

Nothing personal, Heinz! The tool could and still can check if any goalkeeper is oversized or modified. There would be no problem for someone to produce such a tool (as far as I know one Italian producer actually produced the tool after all), but if FISTF does not recognise the use of such a tool, then noone would accept its use, that's all.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:58 pm

Heinz, I don't think modification is a problem, if there are maximum values for every part of the goalkeeper. The producers must make their goalies so, that they have little tolerance, and therefore they can be modified just a little legally.

There are 3 dimensions on the goalie. Height, width and depth. There are also 2 basic variations of the goalkeeper (FISTF style and Toccer style). These should have a different template tool (6 pieces of plastic in total).

The max values should be counted from about 20 points for width and depth, and maybe 5-10 points for height.


Last edited by von K. on Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  drastis on Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:58 pm

von K. wrote:Heinz, I don't think modification is a problem, if there are maximum values for every part of the goalkeeper. The producers must make their goalies so, that they have little tolerance, and therefore they can be modified just a little legally.

There are 3 dimensions on the goalie. Heigth, width and depth. There are also 2 basic variations of the goalkeeper (FISTF style and Toccer style). These should have a different template tool (6 pieces of plastic in total).

The max values should be counted from about 20 points for width and depth, and maybe 5-10 points for heigth.

Fair enough!!

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:46 am

if i get it right, you want to make measuring points on the keepers.
those measuring points should be tested with the pattern, right?
I think the sports department should make a sample (on the PC) for something like that, that almost everybody can see and understand exactly what you mean.
If that works it could be a good solution of course.

Heinz

von K. (Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:58 pm) wrote:Heinz, I don't think modification is a problem, if there are maximum values for every part of the goalkeeper. The producers must make their goalies so, that they have little tolerance, and therefore they can be modified just a little legally.

There are 3 dimensions on the goalie. Height, width and depth. There are also 2 basic variations of the goalkeeper (FISTF style and Toccer style). These should have a different template tool (6 pieces of plastic in total).

The max values should be counted from about 20 points for width and depth, and maybe 5-10 points for height.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:57 am

Looks like the debate is very complicated.

One of the reasons to have a unique goalkeeper was to prevent people to modify it.

If some people think to modify the keep is not a problem as long as it remains within the "maximum size", then it's all the debate about having a unique keeper that has to start back from scracth.

And personnally, I don't say that I'm FOR or AGAINST the fact a keeper should be modifed. I ply for 21 years now and I have always seen modified keepers. Only for the last 2 or 3 years it has become a "major problem" so I just think it's a problem of mentality because when everybody was using subbuteo goalkeepers and players were modifying either the figure or the rod (or both), it was a just a topic to laugh about it, not a topic to say "people are cheating".
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:19 pm

Vincent you're right but in the meantime, new problems:

- the number of goalies changed increased a lot.

- increased the size of the goalies. now seem more of Playmobil.

- the rules on safety and toys have changed.

- children (thankfully) are increased in many countries. Children should not play with dangerous metal belongings.


In "normal" I do not think there would need to make a single goalkeeper.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 pm

But this discussion is not new. Metal keepers have been brought because plastic breaks.

The "proposed unique keeper" really looks the same as Paul remund's keeper of 15 years ago.

So we should make a step back of 15 years int he past?

About the "safety rule", I really think it's bullshit, at least as much as Silvio's "insurance thing" (which is just a problem of personal frustration, I believe).

Also, do you think players outside Europe care about the "EC" rule? (but does FISTF care about players outside Europe?)

If we were 1.000.000 players in the world, I could understand it. But now...
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:24 pm

Admin (Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:26 am) wrote:The "proposed unique keeper" really looks the same as Paul remund's keeper of 15 years ago.
Are there any photos of the "propose unique keeper" that those of us outside of Europe can see?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:27 pm

From what I understood it would be "similar to the original plastic toccer keeper".
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:28 pm

This is basically what I mean. I only speak for myself here. I don't know what the Sports Departments proposal would be, because there the discussion would be open to all possible solutions.

With the template there would of course be the truly big an decisive discussion: the size and its effect on the game and the scores. This really is far bigger and more meaningful decision regarding the future development of the game.

Bigger 'keeper makes the game more unpredictable, and thus more interesting (see example of many big surprises football instead of much less big surprises in many other sports). The smaller 'keeper would probably add speed to the game, because you wouldn't need the perfect shooting opportunity to score. The game at his moment (for example couple of youth games I refereed in Rain) with thise perfect touch slow bases is a sleeping pill even for a game fanatic.

Both things are important, and could also be helped with other rule changes, but this shows how many things this 'keeper decision should take into account. There are also many other factors that have to be considered about the size.

Deciding about the future size of the goalkeeper is an extremely important decision for the game.

Heinz Eder wrote:if i get it right, you want to make measuring points on the keepers.
those measuring points should be tested with the pattern, right?
I think the sports department should make a sample (on the PC) for something like that, that almost everybody can see and understand exactly what you mean.
If that works it could be a good solution of course.

Heinz

von K. (Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:58 pm) wrote:Heinz, I don't think modification is a problem, if there are maximum values for every part of the goalkeeper. The producers must make their goalies so, that they have little tolerance, and therefore they can be modified just a little legally.

There are 3 dimensions on the goalie. Height, width and depth. There are also 2 basic variations of the goalkeeper (FISTF style and Toccer style). These should have a different template tool (6 pieces of plastic in total).

The max values should be counted from about 20 points for width and depth, and maybe 5-10 points for height.


Last edited by von K. on Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:34 pm

Admin wrote:
One of the reasons to have a unique goalkeeper was to prevent people to modify it.

This is why the decision of the unique 'keeper is so strange. It's not the modification, it's the actual size that matters.

Admin wrote:If some people think to modify the keep is not a problem as long as it remains within the "maximum size", then it's all the debate about having a unique keeper that has to start back from scracth.

Yes. This rule change has never been debated properly starting from scratch. And the development of the proposal should also start from zero. And there has to be logic that applies to all playing material.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:13 pm

pierocapponi wrote:- increased the size of the goalies. now seem more of Playmobil.

Yes, this has to be debated. But big size is not necessarily a problem (it can of course also be a problem), because it evens the games.

If the size is unrealistic, maybe the max difference in size of the goalie and the other figures should be determined. Then you could choose the big goalie, but you'd have to play with Toccer size figures. Playing with 2k4 etc would mean playing with a subbuteo keeper. I know it will not get support, but it's just to show that many things can be done in the rules.

pierocapponi wrote: - the rules on safety and toys have changed.

Is the FISTF game a sport or a toy?

How does a metal goal or polishing liquid differ from a metal goalie? The balls and figures can also be eaten. The whole game should be banned.

pierocapponi wrote: - children (thankfully) are increased in many countries. Children should not play with dangerous metal belongings.

Unbreakable plastic can be as dangerous. And what do your juniors do with the goalies, if they are so dangerous?

Almost any toy (above age 3 maybe) can be really dangerous, if it's used incorrectly. My 3-year-old boy cuts with real scissors without problems (in adult presence of course), because I have taught him what they are for and how to hold them safely, even when walking.

It is for the parents to decide if this sport/game is too dangerous for their kids. You can get hurt in any other sport, too. Children practice fencing, gymnastics, go cart etc. which are far more dangerous.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the safety idea, and I think it's important that for example the plastics and liquids don't have anything toxic in them. But this applies for all the equipment.

pierocapponi wrote:In "normal" I do not think there would need to make a single goalkeeper.

What makes this situation not normal regarding the 'keeper (the 'keeper is not politics in my opinion)?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:02 am

The solutions are simple the decisions are difficult.
My lovely slogan.

So please have somebody a proposal for rule?
I like dialogue but i want finally a proposal.
OK the simple solution for one type of keeper are no good for the game-sport.
So we must find a simple clear rule for the dimensions of keepers.

I have a proposal ready. I use the idea of DaVinci with the symmetrical body in cyrcle. I use the dimensions of rules and i create a simple rule.
For me the keeper must have base like the rest figures. But i have rule for the keepers without base.
At first we must respect the rule for the base. Minimum width 16 maximum 21 minimum height 5 maximum 7.
The rules ask max 39 height and min 27 for the keeper.
So the body of figure must be between (39-7)32 and min (27-5)22.
Because the base must be max width 21 so the max width of body is 21 and the min with rules 6.
The thicknes max 9(toccer), min 1 (flat figures).

Why we use min? All the players and the producers will select the max dimensions. So i find the solution. Every body can create his favourite keeper but with a simple limit.
All 5 dimensions (base and body) have a total max count 21+7+32+21+9=90 and a total min count 16+5+22+6+1=50. The average is (90+50):2=70
So everybody and every producer can create a keeper using the max and min dimensions with his favourite selections but the total dimensions will be MAX 70.
With a pachymeter the referee needs 10 seconds to count the 5 dimensions. Very easy and fast solution.
A player can select a keeper with big base 21+7 and a tall and thin body 32+9+1 or a small base 16+5 with a short but fat body (like me) 22+21+6.
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