FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:15 am

Are all within a boat do not know where it goes.

every time we move, in any direcion, someone is not happy.

I think it's important to decide where we want to go and then explain it to everyone.

Man will not go into the address listed for the majority decided to get off the boat.

We need to do very quickly, otherwise enter the 5 / 10 years were 100 players worldwide.

Thanks

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:44 am

In Frankfurt it was decided to study about the issue of the goalkeeper, not to change to one oalkeeper.

Changing to one goalkeeper is against all the principles of the foundation of FISTF and I can not believe people like Laurent Garnier (who founded FISTF based on the fact the market should be "open") said things like this.

I can not believe someone like Baudouin Heuninckx, who wrote all the rules of FISTF, was even asked his opinion about the possible changes.

I can not believe that rules say explicitely that all material from Astrobase, Profibase, Extreme Works,... is illegal (because they did not do the "tests").

Table football is run by associations since 1948 and it's only in 2010 that someone says we must change everything?

Sorry but this is bullshit...

We have an history, an experience and an heritage. I refuse to see all this destroyed by businessmen.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:44 am

Vincent, you know better than anyone we're not talking business.

The world since 1948, security issues, has changed a lot or not?

Or if you still using mercury, asbestos, lead etc. that if it was used in 1948 in very many areas of life?

Please be serious.

You really think you can have a real interest in economic, to change the goalkeeper? Please respond with sincerity.

Because this anti-capitalist stance has not maintained with non pay taxes and who do not pay a single license to sell table football for years and years?

We are not talking about it and you know it.

We are talking about the "ready" have managed, thanks to the lack of control, destroying a key concept for the game. And the lack of control has been primarily the responsibility of your board. And you've already admitted to the same forum.

In Frankfurth was decided to make a new goalkeeper. I was also, if you remember. And if Garnier had done their job we would have a new keeper next day on January 1. 2011.

At reality? The goalkeeper is just one of the 100 things we need to do to be one day a sport. But you, and you've already said too, you do not care that this game is a sport.

Is your idea, I respect a lot, but not mine. in fact the reason why all this has created confusion.

Vincent, I say this with great affection and much respect.

I have no desire to discuss with anyone else, upside down, I work with all (ofcourse from outside the board, always better to be clear).

Piero

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:57 am

In every sport, you make rules and every producer is free to make the material. FIFA says the football ball has to answer criterias and all producers int he world are free to rpoduce balls that will be used in official games. That now only Adidas balls are used at the world cup is another story...

Same with the shoes, the shirts, the goals,...

FISTF wants to be "more than a sport", just a very big business.

Sorry but yesterday I asked question and nobody answer. If I play with a toccer keeper produced by Paul Remund 15 years ago, nobody can prevent me to use it.

If I want to play with an original subbuteo goalkeeper, nobody can prevent me to do so.

FISTF doesn't care about this Euro-centric game.A re you going to chack if all players in Argentina, South Africa and Singapore use the new keeper? Sorry but it's impossible.

In no sport in the world, there is only one producer. Impossible!

Yes, it's a business. Can you tell me who is going to make the keepers? Who will have the "market"? Will you contact huge companies (for instance Adidas or Nike) to ask them if they are "candidates" to produce the material?

The idea itself is good (not perfect though) but in the reality, it's really a bad one!

Also, who will refund all keepers bought in the last 12 months?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:42 am

Vincent,

if you think his is a business .. I do not have a clue about business. Razz Razz Razz

The goalkeeper made China would produce a custom-made FISTF. Who would do the business would be the FISTF I do not see a big problem.

Fistf, like any association, you can choose to play the game with a single column systems and make thousands of sports.

I think in any case would be a measure to solve a problem and would not be final in time.

No association, large or small, return the money when he decides to change its rules. Or you think someone has returned the money to the basketball team when it has changed the firing line? Or when he turned to wood in baseball? and we talk about the new ping pong ball?

Solution as soon as the chaos generated by the producers and players, and not controlled by fistf, I see no problem with anyone in order with the laws, can again produce a goalkeeper in the measures.

By the way, who returns the money to players who have traveled through half of Europe and have lost games against cheating players with greatest goalkeepers of the rule, painted a thousand times, with bar 8 mm and with an open hand with pliers?

The fistf control has been forgotten?

Want to take a list of these players cheaters? One by one, name by name? Or think we are all blind?

Please VINCET,

Indeed, in formula 1 is running alone with Pirelli tires, the NBA uses a single ball, IVF single volley ball, etc, etc, etc. there are hundreds of examples like that.

I answer: no, you can use exactly as subbuteo goalkeeper can not use a Michelin tire. Including if you have the same measures.

We are not talking about producing a single goalkeeper. that we are talking about using a FISTF goalkeeper in federal events.

At home, in your club, in the event of your federation if they so choose you can use up a playmobil.

In no event FISTF.

It is the most normal thing in the world of sport.

Besos.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  wrkl on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:48 am

In the Wolverhampton Open recently held in England Alan Collins brought his measuring device to ensure that all the golakeepers were legal.

We all stood like naughty schoolboys as he checked that all were legal at the start of the event.

When he finished 4 people just swapped their legal goalkeepers for their preferred option in the box.

At least half of the people at the event (me included) would have no idea what is an illegal goalkeeper.

One standard goalkeeper ensures that all is fair without the embarrassing debates about your opponents goalkeeper. And the boring waste of time where equipment is checked.

This is just the 1st idea of the council it will be rare that such decisions are agreed by all.

There are more people on the council that agree with the decision than there are people on this forum who object.

Vesa, Marcus & Vincent I hear you but I do not agree. I will never object to you expressing an opinion.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:00 pm

It's really time to create a new association run by PLAYERS who know the sport! If the rule of the unique goalkeeper is a reality, it will really be the beginning of the end for FISTF...

I'm tired to hear bullshit!

Your exemples are stupid:
- Formula 1: Pirelli is the only company to produce F1 tires after other companies like Michelin and Bridgestone retired. But the market is open.
- NBA: it's a league agreement, not a sport agrement. In other leagues in the world, any brand can be used

At the end, I understand why this sport will never interest the medias...

The only thing I agree on is the abuse of some producers but when people like Dogali submitted a goalkeeper to Heinz (and the keeper was OK) and then sold larger keepers in tournaments, the Italians refused to blame Dogali and said he never did anything wrong. And now everybody is saying the contrary. It's really ridiculous...
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:02 pm

I could also report that it's funny to hear people like Stefano De Francesco saying we need a new keeper. In the Eurpa Cup in Tournai, there were 32 teams and during 2 days, there was only one incident about a goalkeeper. And guess who's keeper was totally illegal? Of course it was Stefano De Francesco's (in a game vs Matterbsurg). The goalkeeper was full of glue to be higher. Really disgusting to see that from people who later try to convince other that they are "the right people"...
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:37 am

Hopefully this discussion shows why it is not and was not possible to find the right solution for that problem.


Admin wrote:It's really time to create a new association run by PLAYERS who know the sport! If the rule of the unique goalkeeper is a reality, it will really be the beginning of the end for FISTF...

I'm tired to hear bullshit!

Your exemples are stupid:
- Formula 1: Pirelli is the only company to produce F1 tires after other companies like Michelin and Bridgestone retired. But the market is open.
- NBA: it's a league agreement, not a sport agrement. In other leagues in the world, any brand can be used

At the end, I understand why this sport will never interest the medias...

The only thing I agree on is the abuse of some producers but when people like Dogali submitted a goalkeeper to Heinz (and the keeper was OK) and then sold larger keepers in tournaments, the Italians refused to blame Dogali and said he never did anything wrong. And now everybody is saying the contrary. It's really ridiculous...

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:21 pm

My slogan: the solutions are simple the decisions are difficult.

A clear rule with maximum dimensions for base and body of keeper.
A pachymeter in the hands of head referee.
A strong rule for the owner of illegal keeper.

And the problem solved for ever.

So all competition managers must buy a pachymeter (10e).
The BoD ask a clear rule by a player with experience (one week with all disussions).
And after we need a fair head referee.

And we will not have again discussion for goalkeepers!
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:30 pm

Vincent continues to turn the arguments as you think.

I told you about events brand not monopoly of manufacture.

If you want the goalkeeper in Belgium free ok, but to play in FISTF ... we want the goalkeeper FISTF. They do all sports.

Respect your need for a new association of players ... this is something that is out of touch.

The associations are made up of nations. and non-players.

The players play and managers direct the federations.

Otherwise you do not grow because the players think only of maintaining a status and not wanting to grow.

Discuss about the sex of angels But then the real numbers are terrible .... and we pretend not to see them.

The disaster of participation of the GP of Vienna and the few foreign members (20 maximum) of the IO in Madrid should worry us.

How many foreign non-Dutch and French are the IO in Brussels? Few true?

This weekend there will be more players at the tournament in Milan, which I added two .....

We really can do without Italy?

Un abrazo!!!!!! (Vincent, no te enfades conmigo por favor, estamos solo hablando).

Piero

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:48 pm

Piero, people like you (and your good friends Catania, De Francesco, Garnier,...) supported to stop the qualification of players for the world cup from the world rankings and now you say you are worried about the low number of foreign players at tournaments? Is it a joke? What kind of hipocrisy is it?

About the keepers, I'm angry because I asked questions that are very important questions and nobody is able to give an answer. The problem between you and me is that I know why some rules were made in the past (ask people like Baudouin Heuninckx or Olivier Père).

Another question: what is the guarantee the "unique" (and fantastic) keeper will not break the first time it's is hit against the goal's metal post?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:48 pm

I think your thoughts on numbers are only particullary true.
in the moment when fistf cancelled the qualification over WR it is normal that less teams are interested in spending a lot of money to play for "nothing".
that we don't have 300 clubs, we knew already before. anyway even if an association would have 200 members, tell me the reason to organize a Grand Prix with 5 foreign players, because of the new FISTF rules. It could also be called national tournament.
in the end only the associations with some active countries around have the chance to get the same numbers, the rest will go down.
if that's what FISTF want as international federation, then it was a very good decision. Crying or Very sad


pierocapponi wrote:Vincent continues to turn the arguments as you think.

I told you about events brand not monopoly of manufacture.

If you want the goalkeeper in Belgium free ok, but to play in FISTF ... we want the goalkeeper FISTF. They do all sports.

Respect your need for a new association of players ... this is something that is out of touch.

The associations are made up of nations. and non-players.

The players play and managers direct the federations.

Otherwise you do not grow because the players think only of maintaining a status and not wanting to grow.

Discuss about the sex of angels But then the real numbers are terrible .... and we pretend not to see them.

The disaster of participation of the GP of Vienna and the few foreign members (20 maximum) of the IO in Madrid should worry us.

How many foreign non-Dutch and French are the IO in Brussels? Few true?

This weekend there will be more players at the tournament in Milan, which I added two .....

We really can do without Italy?

Un abrazo!!!!!! (Vincent, no te enfades conmigo por favor, estamos solo hablando).

Piero

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:51 pm

I also have to admit Kechris is right. Several times, the old Board wanted to produce a tool to make the measures. In Amsterdam 2 years ago, I checked most keepers and almost all were correct (one or two were not). So changing the rules and the material because a few people are cheating is really a mess...
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:02 pm

But guys!

I've gone and I do not agree with that rule!

I told De Francesco and I told Giaux Titi!

According to that influences you? I do not think, but again, I'm not in favor.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:11 pm

We have already spoken, the controls do not work because they are badly the INSTRUMENT to measure. The corner of your current keepers are all wrong because they do not consider the depth.

But for me it is still a minor problem, and if you assure me that the agency has the responsibility (FISTF or national association) has capacitance to control and to produce according to the rules of safety for children I am willing to change idea .

Now I ask, do you think that the FISTF (or anyone) can really make these controls? Because nobody wants to return the money to players who lose to cheaters? You know how goalkeepers are open with pliers?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:27 pm

When you lose to someone who has a wrong keeper, you are wrong because before the game you are free to ask your opponent to use a correct keeper.

What's wrong with Titi Giaux?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:36 pm

I cann't understand why you lost your time in discussion.

At first the producers made illegal keepers for the profit.

After the players changed the dimensions of keepers for cheating.

You wrote for de Francesco and before two years in Milton Keynes i dissapointed because Juan Carlos and Angel used illegal keepers. I couldn't believe my eyes. Juan Carlos' keeper (sport fistf) had 2mm extra glue all it body , and Angel put out the body of the base (fistf sport) for more than 2mm. I was his referee and during the match i asked him at least two times to put inside the body and after few moments the body was out again. When i saw that HE pull out the body when i was looking to other side i gave him yellow card. He said that the keeper had problem!!! and i said him "or use glue or change keeper. The next time i will gave you red card" He was angry with me but after his keeper's body didn't pull out again of the base...

You cann't check the producers. But you can check the players. And after the players will stop buy illegal keepers. So the problem will stop. A clear rule for keeper's dimensions and a strong rule (red card) for illegal keeper-equipment. (all equipments because my good friend 10% use illegal figures. He doesn't need them).
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:25 am

You don't need measuring tools.

You make a template (3 different because of 3 dimensions) for both Toccer style and FISTF style 'keeper.

If the 'keeper fits through the template, it's legal. If not, it's illegal.

If a player changes after measuring to illegal 'keeper, big punishment. Like in all sports.

The templates can be made so that almost all (maybe an exception can be found) legal 'keepers of today fit through.

But again, this is beside the point of the basic problem. Which is the process of making decisions. Who does what and when has to be clearer. It's wild west at the moment. The logic is also missing.

John, you saying it's Vincent, Marcus and me against the 11 in the Council doesn't reflect the reality. In Italian forum I can easily find many times the Council's number of people criticising this.

But the numbers or the decisions are not the main issue. It's like with the obnoxious FIFA ExCo deciding about the World Cups. It was the process and the lack of arguments supporting the decision or answering the criticism that creats the biggest issue, because it means decisions maybe aren't done properly. FISTF Council is not in that scale of course, but the idea remains the same.

So, if we ask the questions mentioned in this thread to all the members of the Council (1 by 1), can they all answer in the same way to prove that these things were considered and discussed?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:50 am

So you agree on it that people can modify their keepers as long as the keeper respects the existing rules?
I don't agree on that. Players shouldn't modify their equipment, especially when it is homologated by FISTF.
If a player puts clue on the body of the keeper, the keeper will not be illegal as long as the keeper is not thicker than the rules say. The space between the arms can be modified without creating an illegal keeper too. Additionally you are not able to check the volume of the figure.
So to you use such a plate only to test the measurements is only half of the truth, in my opinion homologated material shouldn't be modified by the players, undependent if the keeper is still legal after the modifications or not.

Admin wrote:I also have to admit Kechris is right. Several times, the old Board wanted to produce a tool to make the measures. In Amsterdam 2 years ago, I checked most keepers and almost all were correct (one or two were not). So changing the rules and the material because a few people are cheating is really a mess...

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:31 pm

von K. wrote:
You make a template (3 different because of 3 dimensions) for both Toccer style and FISTF style 'keeper.

You are clever man but you haven't experience in this point.
Because everybody can change the dimensions of template.
So in my template the keeper is ok in your template the keeper isn't ok.
Then we will need again a pachymeter!

The second and more important is that everybody wants to produce a keeper. How many templates would make?

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS : CLEAR DIMENSIONS AND A PACHYMETER.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:49 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
I don't agree on that. Players shouldn't modify their equipment, especially when it is homologated by FISTF.

I think this is impossible to prevent or control. Many bases are unique and handmade (at least together from pieces). There are also at least 3 different plastics used, metal covered plastic etc. There are different angles for the bases edge. If someone makes an adjustement, how can you realistically see it? And how do you know if the anomality is made by the player or by the producer?

In most sports people can modify, invent and develop the equipment. The important thing is to remain inside the regulations. The same applies to our game/sport.

Measuring equipment in tournaments, if there are doubts, is much easier, and this is the way in most sports.

Homologation should be a guide for players, so they know which are legal for sure.

In an ideal world, people would not manipulate the equipment, and your idea would work. But in theory just changing the weight of the base can be manipulation, if the player doesn't put together the base in exactly the same way.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:25 pm

kechris wrote:
von K. wrote:
You make a template (3 different because of 3 dimensions) for both Toccer style and FISTF style 'keeper.

Because everybody can change the dimensions of template.
So in my template the keeper is ok in your template the keeper isn't ok.

The idea is that the FISTF makes the templates. They are marked with FISTF logo or something. Only the tournament organisers and the head referee need them. And of course producers, and players who want to modify their 'keepers.

Pachymeter is only needed, if manipulation of the official template is suspected to be done by the head referee or organisers. The punishment for that should be very severe, because they have more responsibility than the players.

In sports it's the independent referee that checks and measures equipment. The idea is the same here. If a player or producer changes a template for himself, it doesn't help him at all.

My experience from this game is not as big as yours, but I have experience also from olympic sports, even from international level (although I wasn't really that good). I also follow what happens in sports.

Of course it's just the way I see this. But a template is much more practical and quicker to use than a pachymeter. With one small movement a template measures the 'keeper (goes through = legal, doesn't go through = illegal). You don't have to separate the hands, the base or the body. The template can be made so that it has a max value for every mm of the 'keepers body in three dimensions. (For example the fingers of the 'keeper, the wrists of the 'keeper, the ankles of the keeper, the lower legs of the 'keeper, the knees of the 'keeper.)

Sounds difficult maybe, but this is only because it's hard to explain in words.

kechris wrote:The second and more important is that everybody wants to produce a keeper. How many templates would make?

Anyone can produce a 'keeper within the measures of the official template and within the other regulations (for example material). Absolutely no problem. The interested player just has to buy the templates from FISTF.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  drastis on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:45 am

von K. wrote:The idea is that the FISTF makes the templates. They are marked with FISTF logo or something. Only the tournament organisers and the head referee need them. And of course producers, and players who want to modify their 'keepers.

Dear Vesa. More than two years ago, I designed such a template, following an idea by Thossa who was in FISTF BoD back then. I even constructed one and tested it against every goalkeeper type available. FISTF BoD, namely Heinz Eder did not favour the idea, so it was never realised in a large scale.

I am still 100% convinced that such a template is the only solution, because it is the ONLY way to see if a goalkeeper has been tampered with.

A couple of simple questions to all the supporters of the "unique" goalkeeper: How can you be sure that this new perfect goalkeeper will not be "touched" by cheats??? What kind of material will this goalkeeper be made of, so that noone will be able to stretch it, put heavy coat of paint on it, bend it etc etc???? Will you let the human eye be your judge???

In every aspect of life we use measuring tools, meters, clocks, balances, speed counters etc. Is it so difficult to understand that THE ONLY WAY to be sure that you know the truth about the size of anything is to MEASURE IT???

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:16 am

Devils advocate: of course you need a measuring tool , but this time you only need a simple one. One kind of keeper, much easier to check.

I also note that I read somewhere that this keeper will not be allowed to be painted.

Moving on, I consider the volume rule (the existing one) to be utter crap, I would very much like to know who is the Einstein who thought of a rule like this. It is a nightmare to control. I would like a simpler rule but not a unique keeper. I said it before and I will repeat it: the logic behind the use of a single keeper dictates for single kind of bases as well. I have seen monsters of bases being used and no one is saying a word about it.

If you cannot control , ban everything

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