FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:59 am

Bah, in Greece you have to wait a couple of hours anyway for the tournament to start. The organizers are (most of the time) waiting for their friends to arrive. Very Happy

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:33 pm

kechris wrote:
Janus_Gersie wrote:??????????????


And why should we have asked the producers ? They already knew since months that this issue would be solved anyway. They've been part of the more and more sold fake goalkeepers ....
100% RIGHT

We decided on a unique goalkeeper. What is wrong with that ?
100% WRONG. I WANT TO HAVE SELECTIONS FOR MY EQUIPMENT.

Who will create the new keeper? Who will check the proposals?

I try to answer:
It is nice you want to have a selection of goalkeepers. But you must admit we went in the wrong direction in the last years. For me (and a lot of others!) it was clear we have to create a unique goalkeeper to easily monitor that rules are kept. Yes, your selection possibility is limited but: LIFE IS NOT A PONY RANCH !

Creation of the goalie is up to FISTF. They can choose who they want even if CoN proposed to tender the first lot. CoN also proposed a fixed sales price: 6 €. That's fair, isn't it ?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:21 pm

Using the same spirit (and I am being serious) we should also have one kind of base and one kind of figures.

Then, and only then you know who is not a cheat and who is the best

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:51 pm

In my opinion it is the end if everybody has to use the same material. It would be the same to tell all soccer players that they have to wear the same model of shoe.
Different material is important, because the difference of the hands of the players. The length of the nail is different too.

panagios wrote:Using the same spirit (and I am being serious) we should also have one kind of base and one kind of figures.

Then, and only then you know who is not a cheat and who is the best

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:57 pm

The materials used in footy are easy to check. Stop using this simplistic generalization. From the things you write, I expect more from you.

A subbi player can cheat by altering his keeper, manipulating the height of his outfield players, their weight etc. These things are almost impossible to check.

In football what are you gonna do? manufacture your own jabulani? make your players wear iron shoes? shoes with springs? with afterburner?

pls get real and see the difference



PS : I will also add this: since you are concerned with the comparison of subbi with footy, pls correct some rules first, rules that make subbi more like biliards than football (passive offside, shooting line, offside from inside the shooting line, whole GIGANTIC ball outside the lines for an out, etc etc)


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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:00 pm

The same material but not the same brand. It's against all basic rules of competition and ethics.

By having one kind of material, we are going back 20 years in the past when Subbuteo was the only brand on the market.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:04 pm

I am just saying that if you make only one goalkeeper because you admit that you cannot check him, then you must do the same with the figures and bases as well , since you cannot check them as well.

Is this not logical?

also, check my previous post for the other important changes. thank you

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:08 pm

ok, maybe soccer is not the best example but there are many other sports where you can buy parts of the equipment and then "design" your own equipment.
I think that's important for the improvement.

panagios wrote:The materials used in footy are easy to check. Stop using this simplistic generalization. From the things you write, I expect more from you.

A subbi player can cheat by altering his keeper, manipulating the height of his outfield players, their weight etc. These things are almost impossible to check.

In football what are you gonna do? manufacture your own jabulani? make your players wear iron shoes? shoes with springs? with afterburner?

pls get real and see the difference



PS : I will also add this: since you are concerned with the comparison of subbi with footy, pls correct some rules first, rules that make subbi more like biliards than football (passive offside, shooting line, offside from inside the shooting line, whole GIGANTIC ball outside the lines for an out, etc etc)


Last edited by Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:10 pm

It is possible to check all those things, but as it seems nobody is interested in doing it.
I wouldn't have a problem, because my material is legal.

panagios wrote:I am just saying that if you make only one goalkeeper because you admit that you cannot check him, then you must do the same with the figures and bases as well , since you cannot check them as well.

Is this not logical?

also, check my previous post for the other important changes. thank you

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:12 pm

so if I got you right, you are not in favour of it to use one type of keepers and 1 type of all the other equipment, you only say that if somebody uses the reason that it is not possible to check all players have to use one type of material?

panagios wrote:I am just saying that if you make only one goalkeeper because you admit that you cannot check him, then you must do the same with the figures and bases as well , since you cannot check them as well.

Is this not logical?

also, check my previous post for the other important changes. thank you

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:33 pm

yes.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:45 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Again you are right, that problem is very new.
Since the new bases are on the market there are many players using figures under 27mm.

Ι found it first before a year when i saw the new bases without disc.
But astrobase inform all the people that they must use heavyweight or new subbuteo figures. No 2k4 no 00scale.
But many good players (like Eric) used these illegal (bases+figures) and now many players follow them.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:49 pm

Thossa wrote:I am not involved in this offical things at all, but I guess the rule in this case will be changed soon for the next handbook. So what Question

Who will change this rule?
I think that we need rules for the people who don't respect the rules.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:59 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:It is possible to check all those things, but as it seems nobody is interested in doing it.

I interest. And i ask by referees to check the keepers and teams.
But if there are a rule with red card for player who use illegal equipment i am sure 100% that nobody use illegal keepers and bases.

the solutions are simple. the decisions are difficult.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:16 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:
It is nice you want to have a selection of goalkeepers. But you must admit we went in the wrong direction in the last years.

Ι AGREE WITH YOU JANUS. BUT IN MY MIND WHEN WE FOLLOW WRONG DIRECTION WE MUST CHANGE THE DRIVER NO THE ROAD.

For me (and a lot of others!) it was clear we have to create a unique goalkeeper to easily monitor that rules are kept. Yes, your selection possibility is limited but: LIFE IS NOT A PONY RANCH !

I AGREE WITH YOU ONE MORE TIME. LIFE IS NOT A PONY RANCH. BUT I WANT TO BE MEMBER OF A PONY RANCH SO I PREFER TO FIGHT FOR THIS.

Creation of the goalie is up to FISTF. They can choose who they want even if CoN proposed to tender the first lot. CoN also proposed a fixed sales price: 6 €. That's fair, isn't it ?

BEFORE ONE YEAR I ASK A LOCAL PRODUCER HOW COST 1000 KEEPERS. HE TOLD ME THE PRICE BEGIN BY 2 EUROS PER PIECE. I HAD AN IDEA FOR LEGAL AND NORMAL KEEPER BUT I STOPPED BECAUSE I READ THE IDEAS FOR ONE KIND KEEPER.

SO THE SUBBUTEO, ZEUGO, AND TOTAL SOCCER KEEPERS ARE ILLEGAL!!!
I RESPECT YOUR OPINION JANUS MORE THAN ALL THE OTHER TABLE SOCCER PLAYERS BUT THE COUNCIL TOOK A WRONG DECISION.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  wrkl on Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:05 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:John, that doesn't match with what was said here some time ago.
The community (players in the association) are only informed by the speaker of the council and the council decides when time has come to give information. That was my impression when I read the post. If the council only make decisions public, I don't think it would help to contact my representative in that council.
If I got something wrong please correct me.

Heinz

wrkl wrote:I assume the 1st person you need to contact is Zinga as he is your representative on this council.

My apologies for the delay in replying Heinz but I was on my way to Berlin when I posted.

My point is (and it may already have been covered) is that if somebody in Wales objects to a Council descision I will be very offended if they post on this forum before contacting me, as their representative, directly.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  zinga on Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:13 pm

wrkl wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:John, that doesn't match with what was said here some time ago.
The community (players in the association) are only informed by the speaker of the council and the council decides when time has come to give information. That was my impression when I read the post. If the council only make decisions public, I don't think it would help to contact my representative in that council.
If I got something wrong please correct me.

Heinz

wrkl wrote:I assume the 1st person you need to contact is Zinga as he is your representative on this council.

My apologies for the delay in replying Heinz but I was on my way to Berlin when I posted.

My point is (and it may already have been covered) is that if somebody in Wales objects to a Council descision I will be very offended if they post on this forum before contacting me, as their representative, directly.
Well, actually I discussed with Vesa (also about the goalkeeper issue) the same day than the post. We don't always agree on every issue with Vesa, but we are still able to discuss the issues.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:40 am

I'm really disappointed that many people here missed the point I was making.

In short (the numbers 1 and 2):

1. The criticism was about the decision-making pyramid and process of FISTF in general, it was not about any persons, any bodies nor any decisions (par example).

2. The goalkeeper decision is a brilliant example of the problem. The correct system would be: 1) subject to be prepared by Sports director (or other commission or director), 2) subject to be sanctioned/returned to the SD by the Board, 3) subject to be ratified/returned to the SD by the CoN.

(3. Do the governments in your countries vote about law proposals they write themselves from the start, or about law proposals written with expert help by public servants, based on gathered information? In Finland it's the latter. The same with at least most Sports Federations.)

(4. If we then want to talk about the goalie decision, then please tell me if my questions on the first page were answered or thought of, and if all CoN members thoroughly examined the subject, and what information was given to them? For example the CE illogicality is really bad example of things, because it means all the other equipment have to be banned, because they are considered toys.)

Piero, I wish you could send your message (directed to me) in spanish or italian. I don't want to misinterpret it.

But I can already tell you, that I don't write piles of crap and I have no illusions about what the CoN was created for and what its possibilities are (some people have these illusions). And I can say that it's a pile of crap to say, that it was created to prepare propositions about subjects like this. It has the voting power to support or not support the Board's decision. But it has not got the persons with time for this kind of work. This was agreed in Rain, too.

I'm also very critical about the decision of FIFA about World Cup hosts. The whole system of FIFA deserves only shame. The authoritation of the executive committee and other instances doesn't mean they make good decisions, or that it is a system to be respected. (edit: This just as an example of things done wrong or at least deserving criticism despite the authoritation for the system by the majority of nations.)

John, do you contact your MP before criticising the decisions of your country in the readers' pages? Why shouldn't I criticise the Council's decisions (or the system of FISTF) on a forum with explained arguments?

If I were still in the CoN, the decision would still most probably be the same, and I would still be as critical about the way it was done.

But remember, it was me, in the CoN's first steps, who asked the CoN to create a communication channel towards players, clubs, producers and other possible instances (Olivier and his commission weren't in the picture yet) for cases like this.

The tone in my posts was maybe not good. Sorry about that. I was just so shocked about the way things are done, in this case against what was discussed in Rain about the CoN's role in the decision-making process.

The main point is still in the beginning of this post (numbers 1 and 2).


Last edited by von K. on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:45 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:00 pm

Just imagine professional tennis players were forced to use the same wooden racket from 30 years ago, PLUS produced by just one distributor. That's the road we are on now.
I am really disappointed that this decision had been taken, because the rules had already been there. We just missed to follow them.

You can manipulate a million things on a goalkeeper which gives you just an 'subjective' advantage. For example the handle.
What would be my 'objective' advantage when I paint it red? Nothing.
What would be my 'objective' advantage if I personally prefer a cylindric grip instead of a 'wing'? Nothing.
What would be my 'objective' advantage if I personally prefer a grip of 5cm length instead of a grip of 7cm length? Nothing.
Just as a personal preference I prefer a heavy rod which has the same characteristics like a rod made from aluminium (apart from the weight). Where is the advantage?

But I won't be allowed to do changes like that in future. I will be forced to use a keeper which feels absoutely uncomfortable in MY hand... At least this will happen very likely. May be I'll be the one who is asked to design the new keeper, so everybody else will hate the feeling of the keeper in his hand... Twisted Evil

Another thing is that my goalkeepers are fine with many tables on the circuit, but because of the length of the rod and the shape of the grip, it is almost unsable on the well-known San-Siro-tables.
What if the unified goalkeepers has exactly these dimensions? Will we ban these tables from the circuit? My solution was to use a goalie with a 4cm shorter rod. Would not be possible in future... scratch


Heinz Eder wrote:ok, maybe soccer is not the best example but there are many other sports where you can buy parts of the equipment and then "design" your own equipment.
I think that's important for the improvement.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:56 pm

2 questions:
- if I use an old plastic toccer keeper sold by Paul Remund, why should I not be allowed to use it as it's "the original one"?
- if I use the Astrobase plastic sports figure keeper, where is my advantage (it's smaller than a plastic one)

Bonus question:
- it has always been said the Subbuteo material would ALWAYS been homologated. Who can prevent someone to play with a subbuteo keeper?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  wrkl on Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:04 pm

Why did you not ask Janus about this Marcus Smile

For now I will say only that if you paint it red once perhaps there is no problem. If you paint it red 200 times then clearly you have a distinct advantage.

If people were not cheating there would not be a problem. As it is the council has come up with the best solution to this problem.

And yes Vesa if I have a concern about something the Goverment does I will contact my elected representative for an explanation although I do not think it is a fair comparison.


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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:39 pm

The point stays the same. With problems like FISTF Communication, FISTF competitions against the rules, Olympia's players situation, statutes, member nations etc. the CoN uses a month to do the work of the Sports Department. Did I really understand the idea of CoN so badly in Rain?

A proposal (by Olivier and his commission) on the goalkeepers could have been on CoN's desk in 1-2 weeks and the could have examined it properly, with argumentated information. During this time the CoN could have used its member's limited time to the subjects that can't be prepared by any other working instance, and thus the work of CoN would really be needed.

But not the CoN nor any of its members should be criticised, but the creation of CoN. Most people in the CoN were not in Rain, and the CoN was not given a proper working order and area by anyone. It was done in McStyle from the drive-in lane, without any planning whatsoever.

No one is expecting the CoN to have the possibility and time to create their own proposals on this kind of subjects. This was discussed in Rain, too. The idea was to get the best persons from member countries, even though they would only have little time. The persons that for this reason can't for example apply for the Board of FISTF.

If a proposal and decision is made by people that are elected for their job with that "limited time to use" argument in mind, how could anyone expect that thay should make proposals on subjects like the goalkeeper? A subject of many many different angles, and a subject that has consequences for the game in many many ways. The wide and heterogenic criticism of the goalkeeper decision speaks for itself.

A final decision is a completely different matter. It fits perfectly to the idea of the Council as a body that sanctions the big decisions (as was agreed in Rain). But preparing a proposal?

wrkl wrote:If people were not cheating there would not be a problem. As it is the council has come up with the best solution to this problem.

Cheating in every other sports and games are dealt with punishments, disqualifying etc. In sports with measurement restrictions to equipment, there are always tools to measure those things. I have never heard of a sport/game that decides to ban all equipment that is regularly inside the measure, and then create a sole equipment. In most sports/games the equipment is also checked before the competition starts.

If the problem of cheating (or otherwise illegal equipment) is discovered in other areas of this game/sport, is the same solution used again?

Why not produce the necessary templates for measuring all equipment that need to be measured according to the rules? If a player plays with illegal equipment after measuring, he should be punished severely.

wrkl wrote:And yes Vesa if I have a concern about something the Goverment does I will contact my elected representative for an explanation although I do not think it is a fair comparison.

Ok. It's fair criticism that the comparison is not a fair one. But it's an example that can be moved to any area of life.

So, how about if you don't get answers to your questions (from your MP for example), or you find out things that you feel were not done correctly. What do you do then, John?

The TF doesn't have reader's pages in newspapers, nor investigative journalism, so where do we take these things up, if not here? You see thousands of validly argumentated pages written about FIFA's problems, and even TV documentaries. Why can't we do the same criticism with our only possible media (the internet forums)?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:53 pm

Does anyone know if one of these proposed goalkeepers has been made?

If so has anyone seen it?

Does anyone have a photo of it?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:47 pm

Simon_H wrote:Does anyone know if one of these proposed goalkeepers has been made?

If so has anyone seen it?

Does anyone have a photo of it?

he made of the new goalkeepers is a FISTF BoD decision only. FISTF Council is only an advise group.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:09 am

I love to read:

I would like to ask;

Who knows the rules, costs, RESTRICTIONS and problems related to toy safety?

Know that the subbuteo table football and a toy?

Know that 99.9% of the material for the soccer table is outside of any regulation?

Many producers have valid documents to produce and sell toys? (Or just sell?)

Producer know how many were sent to the FISTF their submission to demonstrate that they can sell?

Know whether the current gatekeepers of iron have overcome the test for lead, phthalates, etc? Know how much they cost these tests?

Anyone know how much a precision INSTRUMENT serious?

know if they have passed the toxicity?

Finally someone agrees that this decision, to change the goalkeeper, was taken with the votes of everyone in Frankfurth?

I answer first: yes, I know this answer and you?

What aboslutamente incredible to think that the FISTF advise on issues such as these have to be people who do not know these answers.

The problem of materials is a serious problem that may take a day for someone ends up in a prison.

Meanwhile we continue to write nonsense

A last consideration.

Some funny thought, that produce porters for sale to the FISTF then sells it to 6 euros may be a business..

when they want is at your disposal the bussines plan, in my company we have it in a drawer for 3 years and we know from intonces that is not a business, is only one problem.

Besos y abrazos.

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