FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

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FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:03 pm

FISTF is a federation where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. It's a general problem of bad organisational structure. And this has got worse recently.

Decisions are also done without proper preparations and without proper and essential knowledge of the subjects. And decisions are not explained sufficiently, answering the inevitable big questions.

The goalkeeper decision of the Council is a prime example of all the above. And it deserves all critiscism. Not for being, de facto, a wrong decision, but because the process is unacceptable. Done by a Council in which the members are chosen without the idea of having to prepare proposals on subjects like this, and where the members are chosen with the idea of not having to spend much time for it (maybe 25% have sufficient time to spend on proposals like this). The background information was evidently lacking badly (no trustworthy proposal is done by people without time to do it and without clear study on the subject) and important questions are not answered.

The Council, which in itself is a good idea, was not created for this sort of work. It was created to give "blessings" to decisions and proposals, and correct them if needed. It's like a government doing all the decisions with only the ministers without any information gathered from outside. We all know it's not the way things are done.

Why wasn't even the Sports Director consulted on the goalkeeper issue? Were the producers who have stocks full of unsellable goalies (which were produced by the approval of FISTF) asked? How about thinking what people are supposed to buy in the next six months? Was it considered how this decision will affect the game (scores etc.)? Was it considered that thousands of completely legal goalies become trash overnight? Was a simple official template to measure the goalies easily considered? Was it considered that a CE mark for a goalie is worth nothing, because if we consider the game as a toy (in sports equipment CE is not needed at all), then EU will have to prohibit all the other material (not CE marked)? Was it considered that a polish liquid will never in a million years be considered a toy? What where the arguments and the information to which this decision is based on?

There are all the ingredients to make things in FISTF work well. But the way to do things at the moment is very badly organised and doesn't bring up the best solutions in which ALL the aspects are considered.

Everyone and every deciding body is doing its things without proper consultation, without proper information and without proper cooperation with others.

But as I said, It's quite simple to make things work with proper planning of the organisation. I, like probably some others, have a clear basic structure for this in my head, but to realise the improvement in organisation and decisionmaking requires a work group.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  wrkl on Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:27 pm

I assume the 1st person you need to contact is Zinga as he is your representative on this council.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:49 pm

wrkl wrote:I assume the 1st person you need to contact is Zinga as he is your representative on this council.

John, I was critical of the process and the FISTF decisionmaking and organisation in general. The criticism is not directed towards any person in the Council. I'm sure that with the facts given (was there any official preparationon the subject regarding all angles of it), this was a normal decision. And I'm sure that the Council members were honest in making the decision. That is not the question, I'm raising here.

I already know that many of those questions (and many more) were not answered. I also have a strong feeling that the starting question was not "What would be the best solution for the goalkeeping problem?", but "Should we have only 1 goalkeeper?". So the starting point was to have a decision on 1 goalkeeper, not how to solve the problem (and it's not the diversity of the 'keepers, but the rule-breakers).

If all those questions (I listed) were considered and information acquired and given to the whole Council, I suppose the decision done with enough information and thus can be accepted as a proper process and acceptable decision.

The argumentation on should maybe be made available, because many people for example in Italy (with at least 3 main producers of material, who have not yet commented on it) and supposedly in other countries are raising valid questions.

And, finally, why was this a work for the Council and not the Sports Director? The final decision should of course be by the BoD and then Council, but the work and the making of the proposal? So what's next for the Council to prepare and decide? The rules, the bases, the goals, the balls, the calendar? Is this the idea of the Council and have its members committed to all this preparation work, to make every decision from scratch?

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:41 pm

I totally agree with the way Von K. is thinking.

There are many facts and questions about the decision:
- in Belgium nobody was informed of the topics discussed so at the end the belgian vote looks like a personal vote and not the vote of the association;
- several countries, including italy, seem to have the same feeling;
- having only one type of goalkeeper is against all basics of economical competition. Monopoly should never exist;
- the distribution of products might be a problem. Also, how will FISTF control that all tournaments are played with the unique keeper (in particular outside Europe)?
- how can we be sure about the quality of the product? EX: you buy a keeper and you have to order it by internet and the first time you're playing, your keeper breaks (!!!!)
- how comes the sports department doesn't have the final word on it?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:46 pm

Let´s be fair. Nobody of the Catania People were able to solve the problem with the new goalkeeper.

But, I support Vesa´s opinion, it can not be, the Council is doing the job of FISTF BoD.

It is by the way a risk anyway to think FISTF BoD is able to handle the procedere to lunch a new goalkeeper worldwide right in time. Just my opinion of course, but probably some people more share my doubts.

They even don´t know how to publish the Council´s decision to the community in due time...
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:56 pm

??????????????

Sorry, but I don't get the intention of the discussion here.

I don't believe you are thinking in the right way. You all should re-think your view on what CoN is able to do. The goalie issue was a first attempt to check if CoN is able to discuss and decide something. It was the best solution to begin with a non-political matter.

CoN represents all nations. If you criticise CoN you have to criticise your own representative. And why should we consultate the Sports Director ? He is part of the Board and now has time enough to discuss internally the stuff with his board colleagues.

And why should we have asked the producers ? They already knew since months that this issue would be solved anyway. They've been part of the more and more sold fake goalkeepers ....

We decided on a unique goalkeeper. What is wrong with that ?

We didn't need all the mentioned ingridients. If we would have taken all them into account, CoN would never be able to decide in a proper timeline. CoN did its best and I think we found a good solution. It is not always possible to be everybody's darling ...

Maybe we have to accept CoN as a failure. Because we can't take all the "ingredients" into account. That is not possible with a Forum. Maybe the way to work is not the right one ..... Maybe we have to cancel CoN .... Maybe .... Maybe .... Maybe ....

On the other side: what are the alternatives ? It was since ever that FISTF decided changes after asking the nations for consulting. The yearly handbook is the best example for that. Changes proposed by the board - normally no reactions form the countries - changes announced. That's it.

What is wrong with that ? We can discuss and discuss and discuss. But we will never ever find solutions for everybody. COMPROMISES have to be found and have to put in place. Otherwise we will never ever change anything.

Sorry, guys, but I don't understand this discussion.

Janus
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:11 pm

Dear Von K because you've written a pile of crap.

The debate over the keeper is a year old.

The assembly of countries agreed to Frankfurt (and Finland was not present at the reunion) and there is no agreement in the Council. The only argument that has unanimously.

Prior to this solution have been proposed others, have made dimas dimas ridiculous and expensive, it has been discussed for months (in the Italian forum is a discussion of 36 pages of eight months old) have discussed players and producers.

It has come to this situation since the previous meeting, and this has been admitted to Vincent and Heinz, have not had a minimal ability to control the buildup to the infinite clamor of the current goalkeepers sono almost all illegal.

You missed a discussion I repeat to acting against a smart decision taken ALL the votes of the countries present at the Council, I remember you have only "proposed" to board this solution, which will be the board has the final decision.

Find out more and do not trust the information he gives you half.

You've missed him the respect of the Council who are working every day.

Given that you, Thoss and Vincent are not in the Council might have started before writing very superficial things, asking your rapresentantes.

Besos.

Piero

I agree Janus 2.000.000%



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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:24 pm

John, that doesn't match with what was said here some time ago.
The community (players in the association) are only informed by the speaker of the council and the council decides when time has come to give information. That was my impression when I read the post. If the council only make decisions public, I don't think it would help to contact my representative in that council.
If I got something wrong please correct me.

Heinz

wrkl wrote:I assume the 1st person you need to contact is Zinga as he is your representative on this council.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:25 pm

Rule 5: Goalkeeper
5.1. Dimensions of the goalkeeper figure
The goalkeeper shall consist of a figure or of a figure with a base. The
goalkeeper shall be firmly fixed to a rod, have a three dimensional
defending contents of maximum 2700 mm3 excluding the rod, and
restricted by the following regulations by fulfilling the following
standards:
5.1.1. Maximum height of the goalkeeper: 39 mm
5.1.2. Maximum thickness of the goalkeeper figure: 6 mm
5.1.3. Maximum width of the goalkeeper: 21 mm
5.1.4. The goalkeeper shall symbolize a human body



The goalkeeper rule (above) is very simple. Why we cann't follow it?

Each player shall use ten field playing figures, one spare-goalkeeper and a
goalkeeper. Each playing figure of a set shall be of the same type.
[b]

All players use classic figures on bases. 2k4 or 00 scale or heavywight. None use yet SPORTS and TOCCER figures.
BUT ALL USE SPORTS AND TOCCER KEEPERS !!! WE ARE SO FUNNY WITH OUR SELECTIONS.

Have you ever check the first SPORTS keeper with the last SPORTS keeper?
The base is higher 20% and has 30% bigger surface in its bottom. The figure has more width.
The same for the toccer. The new is higher with more "open"hands.

These two rules are correct but none follow them.

5.3.3. To be successfully homologated, a new type of goalkeeper must
be industrially produced and distributed in sufficient quantity to
supply any required order.
5.3.4. Homologation is granted purely on sports grounds, and FISTF
expressly disclaims any obligation or warranty, express or
implied, including, without limitation, any implied warranty
arising from course of performance, course of dealing or usage
of trade, all other obligations and liabilities whatsoever whether
in contract, warranty, tort (including without limitation,
negligence, active, passive or imputed liability or strict liability),
by statute or otherwise, strict liability or product liability of any
nature whatsoever, and intellectual property rights, related to the
homologated products, either towards the applicant or any third
party.


But these two rules are terrible mistake and we want to follow them !!!

Last exampe for the sick situation in equipment:
The base of last SPORTS keeper are 6mm x 21mm so 3.14 x 10.5 x 10.5 x 6 = 2077mm3
The figure is 30mm height x 3mm and width max 13mm and min 7 mm so more than 623mmm3 (2700-2077=623 mm3).
The keeper is illegal.
But with the same rule all the keepers WITH BASE (also subbuteo) are illegal. WHY? Because the rule ask max dimensions 39 x 21 x 6 and ALL KEEPERS WITH CIRCLE BASE HAS THICKNESS AND WIDTH THE SAME MILIMETRE (21).
The rule is WRONG.
SO FOR THE RULES ALL KEEPERS ARE ILLEGALS. EXCEPT IF WE USE TOCCER TEAM WITH TOCCER FIGURES.
The solution is simple. We must rewrite the rule (different dimensions for base -like rest bases of set). And to return to LIKE subbuteo PLASTIC keepers. I DON'T CARE IF THE PRODUCERS HAVE STOCK.
IF I WANT TO MAKE A GOALKEEPER FOR ME FOLLOWING THE RULESI DONT WANT TO PRODUCE FOR ALL TABLE SOCCER COMMUNITY. I DON'T CARE FOR THE PROFIT BUT FOR THE GAME.

P.S Ι respect the men who spend his time for council.
But i cann't respect the decisions of council because i cann't find something in FISTF's statutes for council. And i have a problem with councils which members are no elected.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:29 pm

So if I got it right the CoN proposed a solution on that problem, which has to be realized by the board now?
Nobody in Austria knew/knows that the CoN discussed about the keeper issue, sorry.

Janus_Gersie wrote:??????????????

Sorry, but I don't get the intention of the discussion here.

I don't believe you are thinking in the right way. You all should re-think your view on what CoN is able to do. The goalie issue was a first attempt to check if CoN is able to discuss and decide something. It was the best solution to begin with a non-political matter.

CoN represents all nations. If you criticise CoN you have to criticise your own representative. And why should we consultate the Sports Director ? He is part of the Board and now has time enough to discuss internally the stuff with his board colleagues.

And why should we have asked the producers ? They already knew since months that this issue would be solved anyway. They've been part of the more and more sold fake goalkeepers ....

We decided on a unique goalkeeper. What is wrong with that ?

We didn't need all the mentioned ingridients. If we would have taken all them into account, CoN would never be able to decide in a proper timeline. CoN did its best and I think we found a good solution. It is not always possible to be everybody's darling ...

Maybe we have to accept CoN as a failure. Because we can't take all the "ingredients" into account. That is not possible with a Forum. Maybe the way to work is not the right one ..... Maybe we have to cancel CoN .... Maybe .... Maybe .... Maybe ....

On the other side: what are the alternatives ? It was since ever that FISTF decided changes after asking the nations for consulting. The yearly handbook is the best example for that. Changes proposed by the board - normally no reactions form the countries - changes announced. That's it.

What is wrong with that ? We can discuss and discuss and discuss. But we will never ever find solutions for everybody. COMPROMISES have to be found and have to put in place. Otherwise we will never ever change anything.

Sorry, guys, but I don't understand this discussion.

Janus

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:34 pm

Janus_Gersie wrote:??????????????


And why should we have asked the producers ? They already knew since months that this issue would be solved anyway. They've been part of the more and more sold fake goalkeepers ....
100% RIGHT

We decided on a unique goalkeeper. What is wrong with that ?
100% WRONG. I WANT TO HAVE SELECTIONS FOR MY EQUIPMENT.

Who will create the new keeper? Who will check the proposals?
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:36 pm

I think there is only one mistake in the rule.
All you wrote is for the figure of the keeper (without the base).

kechris wrote:Rule 5: Goalkeeper
5.1. Dimensions of the goalkeeper figure
The goalkeeper shall consist of a figure or of a figure with a base. The
goalkeeper shall be firmly fixed to a rod, have a three dimensional
defending contents of maximum 2700 mm3 excluding the rod, and
restricted by the following regulations by fulfilling the following
standards:
5.1.1. Maximum height of the goalkeeper: 39 mm
5.1.2. Maximum thickness of the goalkeeper figure: 6 mm
5.1.3. Maximum width of the goalkeeper: 21 mm
5.1.4. The goalkeeper shall symbolize a human body



The goalkeeper rule (above) is very simple. Why we cann't follow it?

Each player shall use ten field playing figures, one spare-goalkeeper and a
goalkeeper. Each playing figure of a set shall be of the same type.
[b]

All players use classic figures on bases. 2k4 or 00 scale or heavywight. None use yet SPORTS and TOCCER figures.
BUT ALL USE SPORTS AND TOCCER KEEPERS !!! WE ARE SO FUNNY WITH OUR SELECTIONS.

Have you ever check the first SPORTS keeper with the last SPORTS keeper?
The base is higher 20% and has 30% bigger surface in its bottom. The figure has more width.
The same for the toccer. The new is higher with more "open"hands.

These two rules are correct but none follow them.

5.3.3. To be successfully homologated, a new type of goalkeeper must
be industrially produced and distributed in sufficient quantity to
supply any required order.
5.3.4. Homologation is granted purely on sports grounds, and FISTF
expressly disclaims any obligation or warranty, express or
implied, including, without limitation, any implied warranty
arising from course of performance, course of dealing or usage
of trade, all other obligations and liabilities whatsoever whether
in contract, warranty, tort (including without limitation,
negligence, active, passive or imputed liability or strict liability),
by statute or otherwise, strict liability or product liability of any
nature whatsoever, and intellectual property rights, related to the
homologated products, either towards the applicant or any third
party.


But these two rules are terrible mistake and we want to follow them !!!

Last exampe for the sick situation in equipment:
The base of last SPORTS keeper are 6mm x 21mm so 3.14 x 10.5 x 10.5 x 6 = 2077mm3
The figure is 30mm height x 3mm and width max 13mm and min 7 mm so more than 623mmm3 (2700-2077=623 mm3).
The keeper is illegal.
But with the same rule all the keepers WITH BASE (also subbuteo) are illegal. WHY? Because the rule ask max dimensions 39 x 21 x 6 and ALL KEEPERS WITH CIRCLE BASE HAS THICKNESS AND WIDTH THE SAME MILIMETRE (21).
The rule is WRONG.
SO FOR THE RULES ALL KEEPERS ARE ILLEGALS. EXCEPT IF WE USE TOCCER TEAM WITH TOCCER FIGURES.
The solution is simple. We must rewrite the rule (different dimensions for base -like rest bases of set). And to return to LIKE subbuteo PLASTIC keepers. I DON'T CARE IF THE PRODUCERS HAVE STOCK.
IF I WANT TO MAKE A GOALKEEPER FOR ME FOLLOWING THE RULESI DONT WANT TO PRODUCE FOR ALL TABLE SOCCER COMMUNITY. I DON'T CARE FOR THE PROFIT BUT FOR THE GAME.

P.S Ι respect the men who spend his time for council.
But i cann't respect the decisions of council because i cann't find something in FISTF's statutes for council. And i have a problem with councils which members are no elected.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:37 pm

Heinz forgives, in Austria you know all the things you are discussing your parliament? Not true?

Democraia confused a lot of the referendum.

Democracy is based on the concept of delegates.

If you do not trust your rapresentante is an Austrian problem.

The Spanish representative reports to the Spanish what you are doing and how it works Council.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:47 pm

I didn't even know that it is allowed to inform the players in the associations, that's the point.
As I wrote in my previous mail I had the feeling that the con works beind closed doors and then publish its proposal they send to the board.
That's why I wrote if I'm wrong please correct me, and I will ask the austrian representative.

pierocapponi wrote:Heinz forgives, in Austria you know all the things you are discussing your parliament? Not true?

Democraia confused a lot of the referendum.

Democracy is based on the concept of delegates.

If you do not trust your rapresentante is an Austrian problem.

The Spanish representative reports to the Spanish what you are doing and how it works Council.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:49 pm

Vesa, most of the producers from Italy will tell you that they don't care about it, if FISTF Board changes the keepers.
They sell their stock of the "old" keepers to private people in Italy and then they will be happy that additionally every player has to buy a new keeper from them.

Heinz

von K. wrote:FISTF is a federation where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. It's a general problem of bad organisational structure. And this has got worse recently.

Decisions are also done without proper preparations and without proper and essential knowledge of the subjects. And decisions are not explained sufficiently, answering the inevitable big questions.

The goalkeeper decision of the Council is a prime example of all the above. And it deserves all critiscism. Not for being, de facto, a wrong decision, but because the process is unacceptable. Done by a Council in which the members are chosen without the idea of having to prepare proposals on subjects like this, and where the members are chosen with the idea of not having to spend much time for it (maybe 25% have sufficient time to spend on proposals like this). The background information was evidently lacking badly (no trustworthy proposal is done by people without time to do it and without clear study on the subject) and important questions are not answered.

The Council, which in itself is a good idea, was not created for this sort of work. It was created to give "blessings" to decisions and proposals, and correct them if needed. It's like a government doing all the decisions with only the ministers without any information gathered from outside. We all know it's not the way things are done.

Why wasn't even the Sports Director consulted on the goalkeeper issue? Were the producers who have stocks full of unsellable goalies (which were produced by the approval of FISTF) asked? How about thinking what people are supposed to buy in the next six months? Was it considered how this decision will affect the game (scores etc.)? Was it considered that thousands of completely legal goalies become trash overnight? Was a simple official template to measure the goalies easily considered? Was it considered that a CE mark for a goalie is worth nothing, because if we consider the game as a toy (in sports equipment CE is not needed at all), then EU will have to prohibit all the other material (not CE marked)? Was it considered that a polish liquid will never in a million years be considered a toy? What where the arguments and the information to which this decision is based on?

There are all the ingredients to make things in FISTF work well. But the way to do things at the moment is very badly organised and doesn't bring up the best solutions in which ALL the aspects are considered.

Everyone and every deciding body is doing its things without proper consultation, without proper information and without proper cooperation with others.

But as I said, It's quite simple to make things work with proper planning of the organisation. I, like probably some others, have a clear basic structure for this in my head, but to realise the improvement in organisation and decisionmaking requires a work group.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Janus_Gersie on Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:13 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:I didn't even know that it is allowed to inform the players in the associations, that's the point. As I wrote in my previous mail I had the feeling that the con works beind closed doors and then publish its proposal they send to the board.
That's why I wrote if I'm wrong please correct me, and I will ask the austrian representative.

Yes, we discuss in a closed forum. Even the board has no access. But communication is a MUST. How will your representative represent your country when he/she doesn't know about the members' opinions ? Discussed facts MUST be discussed/communicated in the associations.

But no word has to leave the CoN about:
- Who voted what and why ?
- Conflicts
- Personal problems

So "soft facts" should be kept out and should not be communicated.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:21 pm

Even if I'm sure that some members of the board doesn't need access to know all those things, it is ok for me and I will ask our representative to give some kind of report too, like it seems to happen in Spain.

Heinz

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:I didn't even know that it is allowed to inform the players in the associations, that's the point. As I wrote in my previous mail I had the feeling that the con works beind closed doors and then publish its proposal they send to the board.
That's why I wrote if I'm wrong please correct me, and I will ask the austrian representative.

Yes, we discuss in a closed forum. Even the board has no access. But communication is a MUST. How will your representative represent your country when he/she doesn't know about the members' opinions ? Discussed facts MUST be discussed/communicated in the associations.

But no word has to leave the CoN about:
- Who voted what and why ?
- Conflicts
- Personal problems

So "soft facts" should be kept out and should not be communicated.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:36 pm

Hey Piero,

don´t mix up things. I didn´t said I am for or against the decision of CoN. I only said, normally it should be the work of FISTF BoD to find a solution in this case and the Catania People failed with this job all the time.

And yes, normally CoN should decide about BoD-decisions and not CoN should work out for BoD statutes, handbook etc.

pierocapponi wrote:Dear Von K because you've written a pile of crap.

The debate over the keeper is a year old.

The assembly of countries agreed to Frankfurt (and Finland was not present at the reunion) and there is no agreement in the Council. The only argument that has unanimously.

Prior to this solution have been proposed others, have made dimas dimas ridiculous and expensive, it has been discussed for months (in the Italian forum is a discussion of 36 pages of eight months old) have discussed players and producers.

It has come to this situation since the previous meeting, and this has been admitted to Vincent and Heinz, have not had a minimal ability to control the buildup to the infinite clamor of the current goalkeepers sono almost all illegal.

You missed a discussion I repeat to acting against a smart decision taken ALL the votes of the countries present at the Council, I remember you have only "proposed" to board this solution, which will be the board has the final decision.

Find out more and do not trust the information he gives you half.

You've missed him the respect of the Council who are working every day.

Given that you, Thoss and Vincent are not in the Council might have started before writing very superficial things, asking your rapresentantes.

Besos.

Piero

I agree Janus 2.000.000%


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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:59 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:I think there is only one mistake in the rule.
All you wrote is for the figure of the keeper (without the base).

oh my god!
So why SPORTS keeper body are lower than toccer?
So i can put a base in my toccer keeper...
The 39 mm height is for all goalkeeper (base + body)

Because the sport department the last 15years cann't write right and fair rules now a group of players try to stop the old problem with a new problem.
In Greece we have a sarcastic comment for decisions like these: ιf i have pain in my hand i will cut this hand to stop the pain!
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  kechris on Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:06 pm

4.1.3. The maximum height of the playing figure including its base
shall be 3.9 cm, the minimum height shall be 2.7 cm.

And you can see the rule.
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  panagios on Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:58 am

Kostas is absolutely right about this. The problem is that people do not read the rules. I am not talking about newcomers and rookies, I am talking about seasoned players.

It is just ridiculous

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Thossa on Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:21 am

I am not involved in this offical things at all, but I guess the rule in this case will be changed soon for the next handbook. So what Question
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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:27 am

sorry my post was not precise enough.
My comment was only according on the volume. The rule about the volume is only about the figure, so you can't add the base, if the keeper has one.

with the rest you are right of course.

kechris wrote:4.1.3. The maximum height of the playing figure including its base
shall be 3.9 cm, the minimum height shall be 2.7 cm.

And you can see the rule.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:31 am

Again you are right, that problem is very new.
Since the new bases are on the market there are many players using figures under 27mm.

kechris wrote:4.1.3. The maximum height of the playing figure including its base
shall be 3.9 cm, the minimum height shall be 2.7 cm.

And you can see the rule.

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:49 am

You can change the rules as long as you want.
As long as players are using illegal material and referee other players you don't have to think that they ever will tell another player who uses illegal material that he has to change. So you need somebody else to do that.
Even Homologation is not the solution for that problem. I got keepers for homologation, when I checked their measures they were ok and then 2 months later you saw a bigger version at tournaments.
You can homologate playing figures and bases, but if players or producers start to combine and then the result are illegal playing figures, you never will get notice of that. The worst thing is if producers are selling illegal products.
The problem are particullary the producers and the players who combine different products and make their figures on their own.
The rest of the problem is home-made by all players who don't care if the players use legal material, when they are referee.

A good start would be if there could be a commission consisting of 3 people who have to homologate all the material used at the big events like Major, WC and EC. Every player should have to show the material he uses at the tournament and the illegal material should be removed by the commission. If somebody manages it to use illegal equipment then, he should be banned.

Maybe players will change their mind when they have to wait for at least 1 or 2 hours to start the tournament, because that commission has to test all the equipment first.

Thossa wrote:I am not involved in this offical things at all, but I guess the rule in this case will be changed soon for the next handbook. So what Question

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Re: FISTF, Council, decisionmaking and the goalkeeper

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