Extraordinary Congress

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Admin on Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:38 pm

It's always the same, always coming to a point like "Italy is big big big big". What's the point?
Italy had 4 times more players than Belgium but Italy has a population 6 times bigger than Belgium?
So what is the point to be arrogant all the time.

Instead of reading Italians saying "italy is bg and no other nation is as bg as we are", it would be smarter to read "Italy is aware of its situation but respects the situation of the game in the other countries".
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:03 pm

Admin wrote:All I want to say is that this guy needs to be stopped. You can't keep as president a guy who bans everyone who doesn't agree with him. We need democracy, not a one-man-show!

Italy had 4 times more players than Belgium but Italy has a population 6 times bigger than Belgium?

I think that i wrote the first paragraph for you before two years. No you write it for new president.
But you have right for the second paragraph.
Greece has more than 100 full active players and 10 clubs with 10 million people. Our big problem is the junior categories but i think now with total soccer in shops we will have more new small friends.

We spent many time to decide that we need EGM. We can cait few days more for better results.
BUT IF ITALY IS OK WITH CATANIA'S TEAM WE DID'T WAIT FOR ITALY'S ANSWER.

P.S Martin are you satisfied with organisation calendar promotion tournament and all decisions of BoD? I think no. So we must continue to next step.
At first we must decide for elections and after we will ask for candidates with programm.
One step everytime.
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:06 pm

am writing this to show that the Italian mentality is moving professional. In Italy every weekend we play two tournaments, one national and one regional.

The rest of the world in politics and talks.

They are right when they say that we can not demand that they conform to the bottom! To us to grow. But growing concerns within. More interested in politics and elections.

We speak and they play tournament with 70 teams and 300 players!

I read here that the Italians should respect the smaller countries. Ok, but why I never read that would not be a bad idea to understand how they work in Italy by nations that have 30 players?

Some people think we can explain to the Chinese how to play Ping Pong?

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Admin on Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:34 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Some people think we can explain to the Chinese how to play Ping Pong?
But at least the Chinese people don't blame other nations for having much weaker table table associations... Very Happy
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  von K. on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:09 pm

pierocapponi wrote:am writing this to show that the Italian mentality is moving professional. In Italy every weekend we play two tournaments, one national and one regional.

Did Italy have this when they had less players 15 years ago? No, because for smaller countries it's not possible. But smaller countries have activity all the time, too. And the percentage of players participating is often higher than in Italy.

It's impossible to compare the countries and the work. Growth means more growth. It's like money. When you don't really have anything, you can't make more by investing. But when you have enough, you make easily more.

Italians are doing things professionally on the tables, but not always in administration regarding FISTF and even FISCT (you remember the post by Antonello Rodriguez on World Cup).

pierocapponi wrote:The rest of the world in politics and talks.

No. All countries game lives and breathes with the active persons. In smaller countries they are not so many, and so the scale is smaller. But most countries have activity all the time.

For example to us finns the international politics of FISTF have come up more, because of the problems that effect the whole international game. If Italy would do as much international (positive) politics as they do for their game, it would be better.

pierocapponi wrote:They are right when they say that we can not demand that they conform to the bottom! To us to grow. But growing concerns within. More interested in politics and elections.

I don't know who wants Italy to come to the bottom. I don't.

But similarly it's not possible for others to do things as Italy does.

I just want to play, and so do most other people. But after recent times in FISTF it's not possible to be part of FISTF and accept everything.

In Italy and Malta people were astonished about the Greek GP (and other things). Why don't they then do anything?

pierocapponi wrote:We speak and they play tournament with 70 teams and 300 players!

What is the percentage of participation with regard to the population of Italy and total amount of players in Italy (also non-members). I bet we have better the latter percentage, and Monaco has better percentage in both.

It depends on the perspective.

You also have to take into account the fact, that Italy was the only country actively producing subbuteo (Parodi) in the late 80's and 90's. This means the kids of that time also know the game. It's completely different situation compared to many others. Good for them and the game, but not the fault of us, that our countries are different.

pierocapponi wrote:I read here that the Italians should respect the smaller countries. Ok, but why I never read that would not be a bad idea to understand how they work in Italy by nations that have 30 players?

I think it has been written, that Italy has done things well. If Italy has ideas on how to grow the game in a country of 30 players, I'm interested to hear them. But I haven't read any information or interest to help smaller members of FISTF.

But as I wrote before, for many countries it's impossible to do things as Italy. For many reasons.

But it's not about growth of nations regarding the situation of FISTF. And when we talk of a global federation it doesn't make any difference what nationality the speaker or writer has. What matters are the arguments and reasoning.

Why else would it be possible, that the FIFA presidency was between a swede and a swiss in 1998? How is it also possiblöe that Finland, a 2nd world country in football, has so many respected people always working in administrative jobs in World Cups and other big events?

pierocapponi wrote:Some people think we can explain to the Chinese how to play Ping Pong?

Not to play, but certainly how to manage and administrate. I think you know how they grow their sporting talent in China. I don't think a military-like camps for children make China an expert in Table Tennis administration and competition management.

In fact you can see from the link, that the President of ITTF is canadian (well known Ping Pong country?), and ther is not one chinese in his office. But I don't expect them to disregard the chinese either.

http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf2.asp?category=directory_e

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:20 pm


Unbelievable! One more day with bla-bla-bla only.
No decisions, only small talk again.
One more lost day for FISTF. What a shame!

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:56 pm

Vesa you have right but you used many words. Only one comment by me.. Why Italy has more players than Great Britain? The game born in England, they could find subbuteo very easy in shops, they have the same million people.

Pierro you have right. We are talking for politics and they play tournaments.
So we must finish as soon is possible the political problem.
Pierro we dont discuss for national federations. Italy follow its road and every country follow its road.
We are talking for FISTF.

My club wanted to visit Madrid. Suddently yesterday we informed that the same date Koutroumanos decided sattelite in Athens. This tournament is out of calendar!
Every month we have the same problem with the calendar and tournaments.

Which countries ask time and why? Why Italy ask time? They haven't problems. They play 2 tournaments everyweekend.

Luis Felippe keep your passion for the EGM.

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  von K. on Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:40 pm

kechris wrote:Vesa you have right but you used many words. Only one comment by me.. Why Italy has more players than Great Britain? The game born in England, they could find subbuteo very easy in shops, they have the same million people.

In the early 1980's in England there were many firms that started to make computers, for education and to play videogames. The school system in England also supported this development and I remember reading that they had these very primitive computers at schools also, and in many many homes. In Italy the development, in such a scale, came later (like in Finland). So the english kids had a competitor to subbuteo earlier than for example italians.

In the change of 1980's and 1990's Subbuteo was not anymore produced and advertised as much in England, while in Italy Parodi still developed his own team ranges and the game.

So, in short, Italy don'e have the same length of lost generations as England has. So for this part it's about the development of the country in many other ways than just Subbuteo. Also in Britain in the Thatcher era, playing Subbuteo as an adult was probably a bit fishy. Martin maybe knows better.

But it's always the question of passion and people who have the possibility to make things happen. In Italy people have always (since the 70's at least) had more passion for Subbuteo than in any other country.

These are things that come to my mind as an answer.

Sorry, Kostas, that I use so many words. I sometimes explain too much. But words are also my job.

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  kechris on Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:00 pm

Ιt is my problem because i spend time and many effort to read and understand the posts in English.
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  drastis on Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:44 pm

Every day is a lost day if we don't do anything! I don't think Italian palyers have anything to do with this. Maybe some Italian "chieftains" don't want to change things, just to prove they do better than FISTF. But, not Italians in general, not the French, not even Greek players like what is happening now in FISTF.

Let's get on with it. Get rid of this circus...

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Thossa on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:47 am

drastis wrote:Every day is a lost day if we don't do anything! I don't think Italian palyers have anything to do with this. Maybe some Italian "chieftains" don't want to change things, just to prove they do better than FISTF. But, not Italians in general, not the French, not even Greek players like what is happening now in FISTF.

Let's get on with it. Get rid of this circus...

I second that, George.
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Admin on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:07 am

Thossa wrote:
drastis wrote:Every day is a lost day if we don't do anything! I don't think Italian palyers have anything to do with this. Maybe some Italian "chieftains" don't want to change things, just to prove they do better than FISTF. But, not Italians in general, not the French, not even Greek players like what is happening now in FISTF.

Let's get on with it. Get rid of this circus...

I second that, George.
Me too!
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Martin Hodds on Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:27 am

kechris wrote:Why Italy has more players than Great Britain? The game born in England, they could find subbuteo very easy in shops, they have the same million people.
Back in 1990 yes. In 2010 no.

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  von K. on Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:52 am

drastis wrote:I don't think Italian palyers have anything to do with this. Maybe some Italian "chieftains" don't want to change things, just to prove they do better than FISTF. But, not Italians in general, not the French, not even Greek players like what is happening now in FISTF.

True, of course.

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Guest on Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:43 am

The reason why I say Italy is because they can play it without us and without the FISTF. We do not.

In Spain, where today we are 200 and with foresight to reach more than 300 this year (we already have 14 clubs and 10 schools especially where you play Subbuteo) have a tournament a month. Without FISTF would you do to grow?

Stop talking about popolacion proportions, the Germans would have no time to write here ....

Nobody, I repeat, no one has had the humility to ask as they do in Italy or catch a plane to go see the Coppa Italia which is played at this time.

L. Von has said, here there are only players. In Italy grows (and we too) because there is "only" players. A Spanish example? You know all who are Carlos Flores, and Arturo Martinez, and Raul Benita. Antonio Montano know who they are? or Flavio Waztcha? or Anselmo Nunez? These are the people who care about building our future and not just to play. In Italy there are 100 people as well. This is the difference.

Finally, in the last Olympics for 37% of Ping Pong players were of Chinese origin. There is no country of elite (or Sweden, the largest European power) that has no Chinese players .....

We speak always eat a lot, but there is not a single candidate for president who has explained his ideas. Not a single candidate to the communication that tells us he wants to do. No one with a single idea on how to promote the game.

While many in Italy have reached the 1100 card players with the federation.

Greetings.

Piero




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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Guest on Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:59 am

I have made clear why Koutrumanos has to resign and therefore also Catania.

Now I would like to know, given that I represent a country and I have a vote, who I have to vote?

A Coppenolle? Great communication Fistf responsible for where he has done an extraordinary job? Ok, let's not forget that the growth in 7 years under his management has been very poor and in the end to only work (and a little Heinz). Vincent also lately is dedicated solely to offend and that is no position for a president.

to Jenus? Ok? what is your program? Because if we look at the numbers in Germany are not very positive.

What are the other canidadatos? What are the programs? Ideas? What happens to the promotion of the game? with marketing? And with the materials? and the rules of the game?

Anyone can write 10 ideas on how to really promote the game? Anyone want to explain to people that we have to play with goals in the same dimension, with 80 inches high fields, not 50, you can not go in jeans on television, you can not insult the opposite because you are playing drunk, can not throw a goalie in the middle of a flag, it is better to change the shirt from one day to another because many seem to pigs? that the toilet has to be decent and maybe if we play on the public site closest to what would help them grow better?

From this you have to talk here if you want to introduce you to a ELECTIONS.

Do not worry for the elections as we are ordering that he has a new congress, but still nobody has given me a single reason to convince me why I have to vote.

Un saludo.

Piero

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Thossa on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:36 pm

Hey Piero,
do you know what I really think. There will be no EGM coming! In Athens and Malta they only laugh about you and all the other who are trying to bring FISTF back on the right track. I believe they have already all plans prepared for all efforts to kick them from the throne. Remember, who is able to cancel a statuable congess, will be able to block every call for an EGM very easily.

So, do not think at the moment about the right choices for FISTF-BoDcandidates, with programs etc.
I am sure, you can find very quick a group of interested people to help FISTF to come out of the hole we are sitting in, to make things better than it is now.

My prediction is, you will not getting an EGM at all.
What do you say Wink
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Admin on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:44 pm

Let's create the WASA:
World
Amateur
Subbuteo
Association

Back to the roots!

-> A player is wearing jeans when playing? Who cares?
-> Make an international association with easy rules but making sure the basics (communication, fair-play) are key words.
-> The game must be the priority again (not the politics, the dictature, the conflicts,...)
-> All players in the world are part of ONE world association (not national associations)

Maybe I'm crazy but I believe this idea would not be so bad after all...
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Thossa on Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Sorry Vincent, but I don´t like to be part of a "crisp bread association" Razz

Admin wrote:Let's create the WASA:
World
Amateur
Subbuteo
Association

Back to the roots!

-> A player is wearing jeans when playing? Who cares?
-> Make an international association with easy rules but making sure the basics (communication, fair-play) are key words.
-> The game must be the priority again (not the politics, the dictature, the conflicts,...)
-> All players in the world are part of ONE world association (not national associations)

Maybe I'm crazy but I believe this idea would not be so bad after all...
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:04 pm

Only a small and respectfull comment about the italian table football:

All we know Italy is in the top in the table football development.
All we know we all should learn a lot with how Italy got this development.
Nevertheless, no nation will allow Italy lead international table football by alone, or decide what the others nations should do internally, only because they have too much registered players.
Leadership should be shared by all, electing the proper people for each job in the FISTF organization.
This isn't what we have nowadays in the FISTF.

A comment about the EGM:

The FISTF community need getting the proper conditions for the best people appear for the new FISTF leadership, sharing their ideas about how to work in the future.
Instead, discussion everyday the same topics will take nowhere.
We all should take a time to reflect about all issues regarding the development of our sport in each of our nations, and, this reflection should help getting the best answers for the FISTF problems in an international level.
The keyword is: what we want for the future of our sport ?

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  dromer on Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:10 pm

Where and when can i become member of WASA? Very Happy

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:35 am

Admin wrote:Let's create the WASA:
World
Amateur
Subbuteo
Association

Back to the roots!

-> A player is wearing jeans when playing? Who cares?
-> Make an international association with easy rules but making sure the basics (communication, fair-play) are key words.
-> The game must be the priority again (not the politics, the dictature, the conflicts,...)
-> All players in the world are part of ONE world association (not national associations)

Maybe I'm crazy but I believe this idea would not be so bad after all...

Nonsense!
Let's fight for our FISTF!

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  von K. on Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:01 am

Thanks Piero, for explanations. Now i understand better what you mean. It think the language barrier is a problem many times.

The candidates and the programs will appear when the EGM is decided. I'm sure about that. But most people don't want to do that before the EGM is decided.

About this WASA idea of Vincent. The idea is not necessarily against the FISTF. I don't know why amateur players would have to be under the same organisation as professionally orientated players. They can be under the same federation, but we have to understand that the top players and the real amateurs are like the sun and the moon. Diversity has to be taken into consideration. This can and should be done within the FISTF.

For example the rules. It's ridiculous that a novice has to start with 50 pages of rules. Why not make simplified rules to help start the game (the difficulty of the game makes growth harder)? And why not at the same time make the simplified rules a bit more football like. The amateurs don't care if it's a football game. This would help promotion.

As an example I can mention the finnish rules. The players who like it more, like it because it's designed to be a football game in small scale. Not some totally different game. With that introduction also many of those who start a football game, would be interested in the separate table football game (the FISTF game). Like me. With only the FISTF rules, I would not have continued to play as a kid. I wanted a "realistic" football game, I had other sports hobbies to fulfil sports needs, but no other realistic football simulation game.

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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Admin on Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:15 am

WASA is a crazy and unrealistic idea but it just proves all players in the world don't have the same needs. The word "amateur" is for me really important because we are a very amateur game/sport but run by people who think it is professional. Even in italy it's not professional and it would be crazy to believe an organisation with 1100 registered players can be professional (I know tennis clubs who have 1000 members and it's not professional at all).

That WASA is created in the future or not is not important. What is important is that FISTF understands the nees of ALL players and ALL countries. For the moment it's not the case and the management by the Catania-Koutromanos-Garnier crew is more than a nightmare for those who believe in democracy and justice. And hopefully Stefano De Francesco will never be involved in FISTF anymore because he'd better concentrate on Italy only.
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Re: Extraordinary Congress

Post  Thossa on Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:43 am

Admin wrote: Even in italy it's not professional and it would be crazy to believe an organisation with 1100 registered players can be professional (I know tennis clubs who have 1000 members and it's not professional at all).

Yes, par example, my former club VfL Kamen (just a local Sports Club next to Dortmund) have 3000 members.

Let´s be realistic.
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