UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:52 pm

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
von K. wrote:The CoN should ask this straight from him. He doesn't write to this forum, and I think he has no clear official contact information for the CoN.

It's very important that a straight line of contact is developed between them. Vincent can't be a messenger in the future.

It is not the CoN who's asking. It is a lot of world players (myself included) that need to know the truth.

There becomes the problem.

Table Football doesn't have journals and journalists to ask and write about these in public. All we have is these forums.

I would not count too much on the official communications in this matter... either...

So, it's better the CoN asks and then decides how to react and makes an official decision. I really don't see any other way.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:09 am

von K. wrote:
There becomes the problem.

Table Football doesn't have journals and journalists to ask and write about these in public. All we have is these forums.

I would not count too much on the official communications in this matter... either...

So, it's better the CoN asks and then decides how to react and makes an official decision. I really don't see any other way.

I insist that this is not a issue on discussion at the CoN now.
Let's hope someone tell him about the need he explain to us his position about the problem with the FISTF Calendar, or, let's hope FISTF BoD publish a circular about the subject.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:25 am

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
I insist that this is not a issue on discussion at the CoN now.

I agree. I just don't see many different solutions as the official communication certainly does not criticize the Board.

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
Let's hope someone tell him about the need he explain to us his position about the problem with the FISTF Calendar

I'll do that.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Thossa on Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:00 am

von K. wrote:
Can you guys, Luis and Thossa, honestly say, that the USA could change anything if they were members?

I´ll do it out of my long experience in FISTF matters and I am sure my friend Luís will second this as well.

I am sure the US-Americans underestimate their influence and they missed the chance to make more out the position they had in the last few years. Really, that´s my deep conviction.

Zach Walker was part of FISTF BoD for a while. To me it looked like he was only acting like an intern at a company. He certainly missed the chance to make more out of it. Unfortunely he was witness of the beginning desaster in Greece, too and can pretty sure undersign how stressful that conflict started an run. Probably this deterred him too much. I don´t know, but suddenly he said, I am out of it.

Northern America, the US-players are really the closest competition to the european elite players. No question. They deserve to be named next to the Europeans, but it looks they are too shy. Quite unusually...

It was absolutely a wrong decision not to be member nation of FISTF, defently, because they lost the contact to the european players who travelled to USA and Canada.

But nobody is perfect. Maybe they will rethink it. I hope.

Vincent Coppenolle was always all in favor for all non-european activities. Without him the Subbuteo World is getting smaller and smaller.

Finally I want to point out. USA, Washington was chosen by the former BoD to be a candidate for a FISTF Masters (I mean a real Top 12 Masters, not an Historian sort-out) . Unfortunaly ASA missed the chance to get an important international FISTF tournament.

BTW @ Zach Walker. I can remember to our discussions about scholarchips instead price-money for FISTF Masters and we were always next. Unfortunaley you left your position, not me.
@ Paul Eyes. Why don´t you do more for the contact between Europe and USA? You miss the chance to extend the bridge with your public absence, my friend.
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:38 am

There is a lot of interesting stuff in that discussion, especially the one with the americans.
I had also some discussions with americans, and I can say that they are splitted in their opinion about FISTF. There is a part saying FISTF is needless for them, there is another part of players who want to be closer to FISTF.
The real problem is that they don't want to accept rules made from europeans and they want their "own" rules in some chapters, which never can be accepted by FISTF as a World Federation.
I also agree with those who ask for more games at a World Cup, but there are several things which have to happen before.

1. We could change the proposed systems at World Cup Individuals. In case of 24 we could propose 4 groups of 6 instead 8 groups of 3.
2. In the team competitions we could play in larger groups that nations will have more games. at least there should be groups of 5 or 6 in team competition too.
3. the organizers need to provide more tables if we want to play in larger groups.

realizing all those things could bring us to a World Cup, which maybe would attract more players, if they have at least 8 games all over the week-end. Of course the number of games depends on the system, but it also depends on the number of players and nations. If there are only 4 nations in a category, we could think about it to let them play twice against each other.
all those things are possible, together with my proposed change in the order of subs I think it could really be possible to attract other countries to come to the WC again.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Guest on Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:37 pm

Admin wrote:But once again, what does America expect from FISTF? Money? A World Cup?

If I had my way the ASA would be a full member of FISTF. But I am a minority.

To me an Association as big as the ASA needs to be involved to ensure that the voice of the American players are heard.

Money? No.

World Cup? I don't think the ASA is ready to host one.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Guest on Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:49 pm

Thossa wrote:they (ASA) lost the contact to the european players who travelled to USA and Canada.
I cannot speak for the ASA president or board. But I can speak for the players in So Cal (southern California, Los Angeles area).

If any Subbuteo player is in So Cal & would like to play a few games contact me. We would love to meet & play a few games with you.

So far we have had visitors from Switzerland, Denmark, & Singapore. We would love to welcome more of you.

You can contact me by using this forum, by using the Contact page on our web site (preferred method), or through Facebook.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  pauleyes on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:02 am

Just read this. So apologies for coming to this late! With regard to the ASA and FISTF. Just to be clear, there came a situation 3 or so years ago where FISTF really "pushed" some National associations to become full members. If they did not become full members then they could not host a GP. A GP for most international players is the only event that they would travel to the USA for. Scotland took the bait for membership because they feared the loss of their well established GP. For a developing nation (in terms of table soccer) this "push" was perceived as a little "heavy handed" approach. The ASA did not take the bait. FISTF certainly wanted us to become members, but they forced the issue with the GP and it did not work for them.

In truth FISTF has much more to gain from the ASA becoming a full member. The extra money is not so much the issue in my eyes, the main issue is that FISTF is legitimized as a "World" organization by having members such as the USA. However, FISTF is not willing to do anything for the ASA and development in return. I have talked several times about the need to change the format of the World Cup. It is simply ridiculous to have people traveling across the world for just 2 games in a "World" event. The format of the world cup needs to be changed by mandate of FISTF to have more guaranteed games. This was not looked at with the "old" FISTF, and after having discussions with President Catania on this matter it is clear that FISTF want to make the World Cup a special event of high quality players only, in other words the vision is of an event tailored to the elite (European) player.

In 1974 Zaire played in the FIFA world Cup, their status was ridiculed by some. By 1990 the African countries were a serious factor at the world cup. There was a vision behind that. Something similar is needed by FISTF. Unfortunately the current signals are not good.

When the world cup format is changed, and when a vision is in place to encourage developing nations to become full members, then the time may be right in future. Until these things are in place, frankly FISTF does not deserve the legitimization that nations such as the USA becoming full members would provide it.

Paul Eyes
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:43 am

Sorry but what do the USA expect from FISTF (apart from the WC issue). The ASA still doesn't really look like a "sports association" and I believe many american people could for instance say "what is done from players who are not from the East Coast?" (as most big events concentrate on the East Coast, nobody is travelling to California when Simon or Wayne are hosting events). Years ago I proposed America to have a better ranking system, a better collaboration with Canada, to have friendly games between States and canadian provinces. Nothing happened. FISTF gave the USA and Canada the "America Cup", which is still a source of disappointment because the standards of organisation are very weak for what should be a "continental events" (for instance there is no website or just basic info, the event is always organized int he same city...). Sorry but the issue about the "100 Euros" seemed to be a Major problem at the time. I still don't understand why Gibraltar and Monaco are FISTF members and the USA still hesitate to become members...
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:54 am

Vincent, Gibraltar and Monaco are in Europe. That's the point of Paul Eyes. FISTF doesn't give anything to USA to be interested in being a member. If I lived outside Europe, I would find little interest in becoming a member.

It's quite understandable and a fact. You see it if you imagine Belgium in the role of USA.

This has to change, and the point Paul was making about the World Cup, is the only reasonable way forward as a world governing body.

The thoughts of Steve Dettre from the letter you posted here, Vincent, say it all.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:00 am

I totally agree on it but many times, I asked what the USA were expecting from FISTF and I got no answer. I once had a request to give FISTF to the USA to organize a tournament (I can't remember if it was for a GP or the America Cup) but why should FISTF give money to a nation that refuses to be a member? The USA have oftened complained about the facts there were not many Europeans going to their GP but if they don't want to be members, they can't have a GP. I think it's understandable, isn't it?
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:07 am

I don't know the details, and I'm sure it's a complicated issue with many factors. Things also change during the years.

A big step would have been to change the format of the World Cup. It would be a big step into having also more european countries involved. I have played there twice, and see little reason in going again.

The World Cup should be the event that gathers every country together. It should be a feast of Subbuteo. It's the same in football. There is never the best football at a World Cup.

For higher quality competitions there must be something else. In football it is the CL (although I don't like its format).

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  pauleyes on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:24 am

Vincent,

You say ASA is not a "sports association" The same can be said of the old and the new FISTF? Your comments about offering to help us arrange friendlies with Canada, change our ranking system etc. are noted. Do you realize that the ASA is 27 years old organization, that we have our own ideas and practices? Do you think your comments were viewed here as helpful, or as very poor diplomacy? I will let you figure that out! There were comments from the previous BoD asking us to play team tournaments, when we had already been doing so for several years. There were BoD members who suggested we should host national championships, when we had already been doing so for 20 years! There were suggestions to play/visit South American countries when geographically for most players here Europe is far cheaper and closer. In short there was a lot of ignorance and a lot of intolerance. The only thing FISTF wanted was ASA membership to legitimize claims that it is a global organization.

You made your point. We are terrible organizers and should have taken all your suggestions and sent the money to FISTF for full membership. What were we thinking? You really think we are in the same situation as Gibraltar and Monaco? This is another example of this lack of understanding of some of the geographical situation. Is Australia the same as Ireland? Is South Africa the same as Portugal?

I repeat. FISTF needs to show true intention to countries from around the world by changing the format of the World Cup to encourage developing nations from afar. When FISTF changes this it will be a clear signal that they are ready to lead and are worthy of calling themselves a world organization.

Paul



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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:35 am

pauleyes wrote:I repeat. FISTF needs to show true intention to countries from around the world by changing the format of the World Cup to encourage developing nations from afar. When FISTF changes this it will be a clear signal that they are ready to lead and are worthy of calling themselves a world organization.

This was one of the things that were suggested to Olivier Père by his commission members to think about. We never got to that point, and I don't know if it would have become anything, and now we never know, but there are those who see this as the right way forward.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:14 am

I understand it can be frustrating for Americans to go to the WC and play 2 games but if there is a WC in Austria, german or swiss players can also play 2 games. If you want players to play more games, you have o reduce the number of players and right now it seems very complicated. I really don't see how we could change the WC format to make sure every player has let's say 6 or 7 games.

As about being members, I still don't understand the USA. In football, there are more nations in FIFA than in the United Nations Organisation (!!!) but some very small countries are more than happy to be "part of it". I don't say the USA are terrible organizers but they just refuse to see how things are organised in Europe (a bit just like Italiens say every nation should organize things like in Italy... Wink ).

If Americans think our (or my) tips were "poor diplomacy", then I'm sorry to live in a world where Americans always think they are the kings of the world (I'm talking about politics here) but seriously, what are the improvement made by the ASA in the last few years. Does the ASA still have a newsletter? How many members are there? How many tournaments are played every year? These are questions but FISTF is not aware of answers. Question

I still don't understand how comes I have helped severel nations to be part of FISTF, all of them were so happy to be part of it and in the USA we just have the feeling they don't want to be part of FISTF while, at the same time, they have a much bigger potential than many other countries.
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:20 pm

The problems between FISTF and ASA are known.
ASA wanted special rules, FISTF is a world federation which has to make standards which are valid all over the World, that doesn't match, as it doesn't match in many other sports too.
When we asked for serious ideas from ASA, we only got the answer, ASA doesn't need FISTF, but FISTF seems to need ASA, so the board should try to convince the responsible people over there.
The rest is history, but one thing I want to clearify.
Paul sees it out of the american view, I see it out of the view of all other members. The members of FISTF got nothing more but they paid 100 EUR. So i wanted something exclusive for the members and I decided for myself that the Grand Prixs could that exclusive thing.
I didn't care about it, if we will have 2 or 3 more members, I cared about those associations, who already were member.

According on the World Cup, I only can say that the old board (even if it was late) already had the papers ready to reduce the starter field. Doing some small changes in the qualification rules makes it possible to have 40 players in Open and Veterans (8 groups of 5) and 20 players in all other categories (4 groups of 5).
There isn't any obligation too to play the team event in small groups, even if there are 12 or 14 teams, it is only a question of number of tables and a good schedule.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:55 pm

Admin wrote:I understand it can be frustrating for Americans to go to the WC and play 2 games but if there is a WC in Austria, german or swiss players can also play 2 games. If you want players to play more games, you have o reduce the number of players and right now it seems very complicated. I really don't see how we could change the WC format to make sure every player has let's say 6 or 7 games.

The difference between the Americans and the Swiss and other Europeans is that the World Cup is always in Europe. But even European nations have difficulties getting teams and players to go. Especially the ones who are not the top countries and are geographically far from the games (for example Scandinavia). The norwegians lost interest because of this, and in Finland it's going the same way regarding the World Cup.

More games per person and per team is easy. 2 day World Cups every 2 two years individual, every two years teams. Reducing the number of players per nation in individual, if needed. More prestige for the winners, like in Olympics or in football WC and EC. It would be very difficult, and even more respectable, to become a world champion, when from the big countries you'd first have to qualify inside 2-3 players, and only had a chance to win it after two years.

If there is the will to change things, and the humility to ask what would get people to travel and participate, then there are always solutions to be found.

About the situation between ASA and FISTF I would say, that the past doesn't make a difference anymore. The new FISTF Board to be elected in the EGM should start serious discussions with the ASA and other non-european nations to see what can be done to involve them more.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Martin Hodds on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:06 pm

von K. wrote:More games per person and per team is easy. 2 day World Cups every 2 two years individual, every two years teams. Reducing the number of players per nation in individual, if needed. More prestige for the winners, like in Olympics or in football WC and EC.

People have been saying this for as long as I have been playing (6 years). Why nobody in FISTF has ever agreed it would be a good idea I have no idea, it seems so obvious to me and so many others. Sad

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:20 pm

Martin Hodds wrote:
von K. wrote:More games per person and per team is easy. 2 day World Cups every 2 two years individual, every two years teams. Reducing the number of players per nation in individual, if needed. More prestige for the winners, like in Olympics or in football WC and EC.

People have been saying this for as long as I have been playing (6 years). Why nobody in FISTF has ever agreed it would be a good idea I have no idea, it seems so obvious to me and so many others. Sad

Perhaps it's time to vote differently this time. We need a new way of thinking to heal the older wounds that still seem to be open, and the new ones that are created as we speak.

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