UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

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UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:12 pm

Assuming an UESTF would exist with:

a Chairman, who coordinates the daily duties to run such an organisation.

a Sportsmanager, who take care for the tournaments, a website and results

and a Secretary for cooperation between all associations

FISTF BoD can work concentrated on a global expansition, promotion and developing of Subbuteo Sportstablefootball worldwide.

FISTF Sportsdirector is mainly responsible just for coordination of tournament calendar for each season, the World Cups, rules & material questions



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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  mikeburns on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:20 pm

i'm all for fragmenting this tiny game even further!

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  panagios on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:25 pm

all these ideas mean the the CoN is a joke , right?

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:31 pm

We don't need any other international association. We need the right FISTF only.

mikeburns wrote:i'm all for fragmenting this tiny game even further!

This kind of comments is not welcome in our sport.

panagios wrote:all these ideas mean the the CoN is a joke , right?

Wrong! You must believe more on the Con and be more pacient.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  mikeburns on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:41 pm

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:We don't need any other international association. We need the right FISTF only.

mikeburns wrote:i'm all for fragmenting this tiny game even further!

This kind of comments is not welcome in our sport.


WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:59 pm

The problem actually is that many people feel the CoN is working on wrong points. For instance the CoN discussing about the Europa Cup, which should be the job of the department of sports (Olivier and his mates). What should happen if both groups come to different conclusions?
(in reality everything is more complicated because then I fear the rest of the Board could also have a different opinion).

We must be sure the CoN can:
- work on the right issues
- without the influence of the Board
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:03 pm

panagios wrote:all these ideas mean the the CoN is a joke , right?

No, of course not.

If there would exist an UESTF, it has to be equal to all over continental associations. If there will be an elemental changing in the rules, handbook, or of the material etc. there MUST be a FISTF CoN to confirm all changes.

And, no FISTF president can contrive a new event (like now the FISTF World Grand Master or maybe an not yet pushed through FISTF Super Cup - I am really waiting on this: Athens vs Regio Emilia).

But to make it clear, as long as FISTF have only Member Nations from Europe, an UESTF still looks only like a dream.

It´s not up to single european persons to speak for a global sport, the voices have to come louder and louder from America, Australia and all the others to be equal partners in FISTF.
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:15 pm

Vincent,

I'm as worried as you and a lot of people, about the current FISTF situation.
I believe you have a wrong idea about the CoN.
CoN never discussed the Europa Cup. The current Sports Director is belgian.
Have you any privileged information about this issue that you may share with us ?
What I may share is that CoN is now working and discussing 2 issues:
1 - FISTF Membership (Member Nations)
2 - New FISTF goalkeeper
I apologize to Janus because this information would be posted by him.
This is what I could say for now.
Be all pacients and let the CoN do his work peacefully.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:24 pm

It should also be clear people have to respect the sports director! I know from good sources a club from Malta wanted to organize a Satellite and a Challenger ont he 3rd week-end of February and even before the request arrived in Olivier's mailbox, Silvio Catania gave a positive end to the request because "there can not be FISTF tournaments on the 3rd week-end of the month" (in reality it's no Major, no GP, no Open). What a shame!

As about the Europa Cup, it looks like the belgian representative inthe CoN gave wrong information then...
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Admin wrote:As about the Europa Cup, it looks like the belgian representative inthe CoN gave wrong information then...

I think it is some misunderstanding only.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:49 pm

Luis, the discussion about the membership is ok, but why does the council discuss about a keeper?
We need statutes, the CoN should have a look on the work of the board too. If the board continues the way they are acting now, we don't have any valid rules soon and who explains to people then, why some people can do things, others can't do? We will end in chaos.
Equality is the most important thing when you work in a board, all members have to be treaten the same and that rule is clearly broken for many issues already. The board has to acto only according on written rules, that's the insurance that everybody is treaten the same way in FISTF.
This is the main reason why people are unhappy at the moment, they feel that only those people are informed who are in the board or have a close relationship with a board member.
The CoN has to interrupt, if they see things like the tournaments in the last months, they need to support the sports director, if the rest of the board decides things against the Sports Director of FISTF. I think that's much more important at the moment than discussing about a FISTF keeper, where nobody knows if FISTF even has the money to realize something like that at the moment. The CoN discuss now for weeks about a keeper, then they send a proposal to the board and the board will propably tell you, that there is no money available. Months of discussion spent for nothing in the end.

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:Vincent,

I'm as worried as you and a lot of people, about the current FISTF situation.
I believe you have a wrong idea about the CoN.
CoN never discussed the Europa Cup. The current Sports Director is belgian.
Have you any privileged information about this issue that you may share with us ?
What I may share is that CoN is now working and discussing 2 issues:
1 - FISTF Membership (Member Nations)
2 - New FISTF goalkeeper
I apologize to Janus because this information would be posted by him.
This is what I could say for now.
Be all pacients and let the CoN do his work peacefully.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:29 pm

Heinz,

Thank you for you comment.
FISTF membership is the most important issue to discuss now because this means who will has vote right in the FISTF Congress.
GK issue is important too but I agree this is not prioritary for now.
Nevertheless this is what was decided between CoN and BoD.
About the new Sports Director we should have more information about if decisions are taken with or without his approval.
I think it is important he himself confirm or deny this information.
As belgian, Vincent could ask him to do it.
Heinz, you, as austrian, should talk with the CoN representative of Austria to get the other information you require.
This is as far as I can go, for now.
At the end, this is a lack of information problem we all must try to solve.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:33 pm

The membership issue is important for elections that's right, because of that it is totally ok to handle that topic with higher priority.
I don't require other information, I would prefer it to see a general information.
I think it is not ok if every single player has to ask the representative of the country for information.

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:Heinz,

Thank you for you comment.
FISTF membership is the most important issue to discuss now because this means who will has vote right in the FISTF Congress.
GK issue is important too but I agree this is not prioritary for now.
Nevertheless this is what was decided between CoN and BoD.
About the new Sports Director we should have more information about if decisions are taken with or without his approval.
I think it is important he himself confirm or deny this information.
As belgian, Vincent could ask him to do it.
Heinz, you, as austrian, should talk with the CoN representative of Austria to get the other information you require.
This is as far as I can go, for now.
At the end, this is a lack of information problem we all must try to solve.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:35 pm

The arrangement of the Europa Cup, Grand Prix events, Masters, Majors, etc. should not be the role of FISTF.

Does FIFA arrange the "real" Europa Cup & Champions League? No, UEFA does.

In my opinion, UESTFA would inherit most of what FISTF is currently doing.

All a new FISTF would do it to set the rules to make sure we are playing the same game & organizing the World Cup.

If (& when) UESTFA does come into creation then I will work hard to make sure the North American Table Soccer Confederation, NATSC, comes into being.

Europe is the place where most of the Subbuteo in the world is played. But the rest of the world should not be ignored.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:39 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:The membership issue is important for elections that's right, because of that it is totally ok to handle that topic with higher priority.
I don't require other information, I would prefer it to see a general information.
I think it is not ok if every single player has to ask the representative of the country for information.

Heinz,
In time, FISTF CoN will publish the final decisions by the hand of Janus Gersie, as the spokesman of the Council.
Be pacient.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:43 pm

Simon_H wrote:The arrangement of the Europa Cup, Grand Prix events, Masters, Majors, etc. should not be the role of FISTF.

Does FIFA arrange the "real" Europa Cup & Champions League? No, UEFA does.

In my opinion, UESTFA would inherit most of what FISTF is currently doing.

All a new FISTF would do it to set the rules to make sure we are playing the same game & organizing the World Cup.

If (& when) UESTFA does come into creation then I will work hard to make sure the North American Table Soccer Confederation, NATSC, comes into being.

Europe is the place where most of the Subbuteo in the world is played. But the rest of the world should not be ignored.

First of all, ASA must become FISTF Member and fight for its righs from inside.
I would do it if I were in ASA members position.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:56 pm

@Simon: everyone is ready to encourage America to have their own association but the problem is that nobody in North America is really interest to organize things. You and Zach are the only 2 Americans on the forum. This means a lot to me.

@About membership: from what I heard, there are different opinions. Nations like Italy, Greece and Malta want to make sure associations fill a lot of criterias. Some other people think the nations who have their status should keep it (for instance Monaco and Gibraltar mus remain member nations).I also agree there can be some investigation about India but once again, those who focus on the "problems with India" should better put energy elsewhere. India paid their membership fee and they wanted to be members but as long as they don't disturb anyone and they influence votes when there are elections,w hat s the problem with them?

Last point: Asia. Looks like America and Africa are not ready to make their own association but Asia has started organising their own circuit. On the web page of "Subbuteo Singapore" on Facebook, i could read the following:
The inaugural TFAS Super 8 Invitational was played on the 24 Oct 2010.....
Here are the final classification:
1) Den Mulia
2) Erza Aripin
3) Erfandy Kusnadi
4) Ezan Ahmad
5) Noor Haikal
6) Christopher Soh
7) Tan Kok Wee
Cool Rudy Nesty
It's absolutely amazing to see the Singapore guys try to make things happen (even if it's sad Rob from Australia and Antonio from Hong Kong could not make it this time).
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:20 pm

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:First of all, ASA must become FISTF Member and fight for its righs from inside.
I would do it if I were in ASA members position.
I have been told by people in the ASA hierachy that the reason that the ASA is not a full member of FISTF is that it is regarded (rightly so in my opinion) as Euro-centric & provides North America with nothing.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:38 pm

But once again, what does America expect from FISTF? Money? A World Cup?
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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:52 pm

Simon_H wrote:I have been told by people in the ASA hierachy that the reason that the ASA is not a full member of FISTF is that it is regarded (rightly so in my opinion) as Euro-centric & provides North America with nothing.

Simon,

If ASA doesn't agree with some rules of FISTF, it must be member first and then propose and vote for the change of those rules.
Noone outside an association is able to change the internal rules of the association.
Respecting the duties and require for own rights fulfillment, that's the right behavior.
That's my own opinion.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:00 pm

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
Simon_H wrote:I have been told by people in the ASA hierachy that the reason that the ASA is not a full member of FISTF is that it is regarded (rightly so in my opinion) as Euro-centric & provides North America with nothing.

Simon,

If ASA doesn't agree with some rules of FISTF, it must be member first and then propose and vote for the change of those rules.
Noone outside an association is able to change the internal rules of the association.
Respecting the duties and require for own rights fulfillment, that's the right behavior.
That's my own opinion.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:29 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Luis, the discussion about the membership is ok, but why does the council discuss about a keeper?
We need statutes, the CoN should have a look on the work of the board too. If the board continues the way they are acting now, we don't have any valid rules soon and who explains to people then, why some people can do things, others can't do? We will end in chaos.
Equality is the most important thing when you work in a board, all members have to be treaten the same and that rule is clearly broken for many issues already. The board has to acto only according on written rules, that's the insurance that everybody is treaten the same way in FISTF.
This is the main reason why people are unhappy at the moment, they feel that only those people are informed who are in the board or have a close relationship with a board member.
The CoN has to interrupt, if they see things like the tournaments in the last months, they need to support the sports director, if the rest of the board decides things against the Sports Director of FISTF. I think that's much more important at the moment than discussing about a FISTF keeper, where nobody knows if FISTF even has the money to realize something like that at the moment. The CoN discuss now for weeks about a keeper, then they send a proposal to the board and the board will propably tell you, that there is no money available. Months of discussion spent for nothing in the end.

You're absolutely right, Heinz.

If the CoN wants a decision about the goalkeeper, it should ask Sports Director to make a proposal, and then decide on it.

The whole idea (according to most people in Rain) of CoN was to take decision based on proposals, and to have a look at the Board's actions. The base work of subjects is not for them to do.

The idea was to get also those involved, who have the intelligence and the views, but not the time to be part of the Board.

Admin wrote:The problem actually is that many people feel the CoN is working on wrong points. For instance the CoN discussing about the Europa Cup, which should be the job of the department of sports (Olivier and his mates). What should happen if both groups come to different conclusions?
(in reality everything is more complicated because then I fear the rest of the Board could also have a different opinion).

We must be sure the CoN can:
- work on the right issues
- without the influence of the Board

The problem is that the "CoN as an idea of Catania" didn't have any clear working system before it was created. The "CoN according to the idea of some others" would have had clearer working system and clearer influence also as a "controller" of the Board.

The "CoN of Catania" was not introduced with any clear idea. This is why the CoN didn't even have a clear system for chairman/spokesman, or contact network, before it started working. It was ridiculous, and wasted a lot of time of the CoN.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:30 pm

Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
About the new Sports Director we should have more information about if decisions are taken with or without his approval.
I think it is important he himself confirm or deny this information.

The CoN should ask this straight from him. He doesn't write to this forum, and I think he has no clear official contact information for the CoN.

It's very important that a straight line of contact is developed between them. Vincent can't be a messenger in the future.

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:40 pm

USA was a member once, if I'm not mistaken (I can be). Did it do them any good? Were they happy?

Why would they pay 100 euros to become a member of a eurocentric federation in which they will always be hopelessly in the minority?

Can you guys, Luis and Thossa, honestly say, that the USA could change anything if they were members? I can't say that. It's easy to say they have to be members, but with the interest and history FISTF has, it doesn't make sense for them.

Vincent, the first thing the Americans would appreciate (as we could read from the email of Paul Eyes), is a World Cup with a decent amount of games per player. It's a different thing to travel to Europe for 2-4 games, than it is to travel inside mainland Europe for 2-4 games.

How would membership change this?

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Re: UESTF - The advantages that accrued...

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:31 pm

von K. wrote:The CoN should ask this straight from him. He doesn't write to this forum, and I think he has no clear official contact information for the CoN.

It's very important that a straight line of contact is developed between them. Vincent can't be a messenger in the future.

It is not the CoN who's asking. It is a lot of world players (myself included) that need to know the truth.

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