2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Admin on Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:12 pm

Nobody knows... There is a handbook but... ? At the end, it's all about "what De Francesco wants".

I can't blame De Francesco for everything (because for the moment Luis, Fred and himself seem to be the only 3 who work in FISTF) but there is really something wrong in the way he's working ALWAYS in his own interests.

Remember the EC in Tournai:
- De Francesco was the only player to have an illegal goalkeeper (!);
- Perugia was the only team not playing the games for places 9-16 after they lost their second round game vs JSC Rochefort. (and De Francesco even left the hall)

It's a total shame.

PS: please note that I don't even like the way I'm writing now because almost everytime there is a discussion going on, it's all about blaming people and criticizing FISTF and ti's really not helping to have a constructive discussion but as long as FISTF is run in such a poor way, there is no alternative (the only alternative is just to prevent people who criticize to speak like on the other forum. I wonder for how long Kechris will be allowed to post messages Very Happy )
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:28 am

Admin wrote: I wonder for how long Kechris will be allowed to post messages Very Happy )

for a long time.
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:06 am

If you are waiting for the bus, ONE HOUR could be a very long time... Laughing
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Admin on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:48 am

Marcus Tilgner wrote:If you are waiting for the bus, ONE HOUR could be a very long time... Laughing
Good one Very Happy
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:44 pm

VERY good one...

Marcus, what is your opinion for no barrage matches?

Do you like the possibility to play only one match the sunday?

Me and my teamates enjoyed very match in Athens and in Tournai the barrages matches. The finals for weaks. In tournai we finished 6th in group and we won in fantastic games the stembert and brussels and we were the best sixth team. These matches was more important than group last matches because we knew that we couldn't qualify in knock out matches.

Are you agree with the Stefano's decision to cancel the handbook because he had an idea?

My team will travel with 8 players. I am responsible for this. Because i said to my teammates that we will play many matches (10) enough for all of us. Now if Stefano insists in his idea maybe i will not travel to Goriza. 7 matches in two days for 8 players are a very small number. I prefer to loose 100e (tickets price) than a weekend for a fiasco.

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:03 pm

kechris wrote:
Marcus, what is your opinion for no barrage matches?

Do you like the possibility to play only one match the sunday?

Me and my teamates enjoyed very match in Athens and in Tournai the barrages matches. The finals for weaks. In tournai we finished 6th in group and we won in fantastic games the stembert and brussels and we were the best sixth team. These matches was more important than group last matches because we knew that we couldn't qualify in knock out matches.

Are you agree with the Stefano's decision to cancel the handbook because he had an idea?

My team will travel with 8 players. I am responsible for this. Because i said to my teammates that we will play many matches (10) enough for all of us. Now if Stefano insists in his idea maybe i will not travel to Goriza. 7 matches in two days for 8 players are a very small number. I prefer to loose 100e (tickets price) than a weekend for a fiasco.


The main problem for me at the moment is that I can't find any official information about the tournament and how it will be played. So our team will travel to a tournament and we don't know what to expect...
And I definitely DON'T like the possibility of playing just one match on Sunday.

On the other side:
IF we are going to play the Silver Cup which is in clear contrast to the handbook, WHY should any tournament organizer follow the handbook?
So we are probably not obliged to pay any fees to FISTF because the handbook is obviously not valid anymore...?! Twisted Evil

I absolutely agree with your comments about 'The finals for weaks' and they are of essential importance for those who are not arrogant enough to play a tournament only to win it...!!!
When I was to set up our team, the main argumnt against the high costs was the fact that we are facing lots of games. If this is not guaranteed anymore, Europa Cup / Champions League / Europa League loses its spirit first and their participants in the next step.
My main reason NOW to go to Slevenia is not to let down the other teams by cancelling our trip, but the true motivation is already killed to be honest.

See you in Venice Cool
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:50 pm

Marcus Tilgner wrote:

See you in Venice Cool

i love your style
sunday morning in Ponte dei Sospiri. ok?
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:39 pm

kechris wrote:
sunday morning in Ponte dei Sospiri. ok?

The name of this place is saying more than one thousand of our posts in the forums... Cool
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  von K. on Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:59 pm

Kostas, I like your "conversation" with SdF in the SN forum. It's hilarious and absurd comedy. Sad that it is meant to be serious and reality. Keep up the questions!

I must say that the funniest thing is hard to choose. One of my favourites is SdF saying "it's your opinion" on matters that are facts and not opinions. I also enjoy (with some nice wine) the neverending koutrou-saga.

I wish you get the amount of games you deserve in the EC. The positive possibilities and the marketing potential have already been buried, so that is all what's left. Have fun in Venice Very Happy , and while you are there you could drop by and play some games of Subbuteo, if you find the time...

kechris wrote:
Admin wrote: I wonder for how long Kechris will be allowed to post messages Very Happy )

for a long time.

Kechris is either a cat with nine lives, or he knows where the bodies are buried...

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:31 am

dear Vesa

the situation in Greece is very difficult. The economy is a disaster for all of us.
I booked airoplane ticket since last july with 100e.
Eight Olympians players decide to travel alltogether to Goriza.
We believed that we will play at least 10 matches. So all my teammates would play many matches.
Suddenly without reason the system change. Seven games is a possibility and the matches are few for 8 players.
I prefer to loose 100e and my teammates to have the chance to play more games than to travel to Goriza to have a public fight with SdF.
my big problem is that the rest 25 represantives and the federations refuse to take part in dialogue.
THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SITUATION IN TABLE SOCCER.
I am very close to decide to stop spending my time and my feelings for table soccer. I bored to try to explain that we follow wrong road. Even now my teammates cann't understand why i insist to change the situation. NOBODY CARES.
Maybe i have 9 lives like a cat but i haven't nine "balls".
I cann't play without interesting for the conditions so maybe it is time to stop.
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  zinga on Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:09 am

kechris wrote:my big problem is that the rest 25 represantives and the federations refuse to take part in dialogue.
Well, I tried to be part in dialogue in SN-forum, but I was banned out of it. Currently I can participate with official association letters to FISTF, which is too heavy and have no effect.
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:17 am

Dear Kostas,
as long as those who are not of the same opinion with Stefano are not able to discuss constructive, you don't need to complain about it that nobody supports your ideas and/or steps.

If you can remember I was one of the first who talked about a different system, but you and some others preferred groups of 10, without knowing the drop-out quote of teams at every EC, without knowing that those groups will become smaller anyway and without knowing that Stefano never was a fan of those games you mentioned as essential.

Of course we had different motivations to ask for another system, but if you are not ready to see my arguments too, we never will find a common ground to argue together against something.

I don't have a problem that my proposal was not accepted, but if people only say "no" without even discussing about it, or telling me what would be wrong or maybe think, how my proposal could become a better one which can be accepted by more people, then it is time to stop discussions and be happy with what you get now.

If YOU don't want to spend that time, why do you think others should spend their time with your proposals? I know with that kind of acting we won't go forward, but especially in your case everybody would have to change except of YOU.

More interest for other's opinion except of only looking for people who think the same would boost real discussions, not what you are asking for. In the end you only ask for auxiliaries for YOUR proposal.

Heinz
kechris wrote:dear Vesa

the situation in Greece is very difficult. The economy is a disaster for all of us.
I booked airoplane ticket since last july with 100e.
Eight Olympians players decide to travel alltogether to Goriza.
We believed that we will play at least 10 matches. So all my teammates would play many matches.
Suddenly without reason the system change. Seven games is a possibility and the matches are few for 8 players.
I prefer to loose 100e and my teammates to have the chance to play more games than to travel to Goriza to have a public fight with SdF.
my big problem is that the rest 25 represantives and the federations refuse to take part in dialogue.
THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SITUATION IN TABLE SOCCER.
I am very close to decide to stop spending my time and my feelings for table soccer. I bored to try to explain that we follow wrong road. Even now my teammates cann't understand why i insist to change the situation. NOBODY CARES.
Maybe i have 9 lives like a cat but i haven't nine "balls".
I cann't play without interesting for the conditions so maybe it is time to stop.

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  von K. on Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:47 pm

Kostas, to clarify any misunderstandings, my post was supposed to be criticism towards SdF and FISTF. And I laughed at them. Your questions are welcome. But as Heinz also wrote, so are the questions of all others.

That leads to one of the biggest problems in FISTF, and one I wanted to change. That is unity and making decisions based on widely accepted compromises. Now people are doing things for themselves and their friends, or because they think they have some divine right to choose the road for TF by themselves. In my scenarion you would possibly be in a work group with Heinz and 5-6 others from different countries, and you would reach solutions by discussion (I would have provided tools to prevent fighting, if needed). Then you would take this solution to public, and it would automatically have a lot of backing because when many people are involved in the development process, the result is a more finalised "product". Similar to the more succesful ways of dealing with conflicts all over the world.

Another big problem regarding FISTF are the lack of interest by too many people, even whole countries, regarding the administration of the game on top level. Like that nothing positive will happen, because the people interested in power, and who also have time and money, are the one's deciding everything. So, yes, the silent one's are also to blame. But, as Zinga wrote, silence is in some cases forced, and not a choice.

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:31 pm

Ηeinz i didn't ask group of 10.
I proposed 3 group of 6 for C.L.
I don't care if Stefano is fan of barrages or not.
I love discussion with targets no to spend my time for bazaar about conditions.
I have a handbook in my hands and i want to follow it by competition manager.
I am a simple player no an official who taking decisions for future.
I use forums because i dont want to keep my ideas only for me.
I had the same tactic with the last 3 BoD of FISTF.
I CANN'T CHANGE MY HABITS NOW.

I feel like reporter who doing comments for the situation in a newspaper.
It is so simple. Silence is not solution.
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:27 am

Nine lives are over for me.
Stefano banned me yesterday until 20 november.
Why?
because he cann't accept critical for his TERRIBLE MISTAKE.
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Admin on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:46 pm

What did I post a few days ago on this forum? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Admin on Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:46 pm

kechris wrote:
Admin wrote: I wonder for how long Kechris will be allowed to post messages Very Happy )

for a long time.
Remember what you said! Very Happy
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:23 am

Two days is a long time...
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Heinz Eder on Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:35 pm

Great post Kostas,
that's the right way to unit all starters against Stefano's proposal how to play the events Very Happy

You will never understand it, so continue and only complain about things without any chance to change something. The most important thing for you is not to solve problems, you only want to say "I told you about the problem but you didn't hear".
as an individual person you will be very successful for sure and if people invite you to be part of discussions you refuse, because then you would have to listen on other people's proposals.
If you don't have time then don't ask other people to have time for you solutions and accept the system of the EC if you are not able to create a more constructive way to solve problems.

You can use the forums for the next 9 lifes too, you won't change even 1 letter, the most disappointing thing is that you seem to be happy about it. you only want to move responsibility to other people, who should work for you. What you need is a slave on the board, but nobody with whom you could discuss in a proper way.

If you think it is bazar if 2 people discuss and give some feedback on their proposals it shows only your way how to handle constructive critic on your ideas. It should be fruitful if you would listen to people's feedback instead of saying "I don't care about it, like my idea or don't like it".

maybe you should close all threads you start then nobody can comment your posts! Laughing

kechris wrote:Ηeinz i didn't ask group of 10.
I proposed 3 group of 6 for C.L.
I don't care if Stefano is fan of barrages or not.
I love discussion with targets no to spend my time for bazaar about conditions.
I have a handbook in my hands and i want to follow it by competition manager.
I am a simple player no an official who taking decisions for future.
I use forums because i dont want to keep my ideas only for me.
I had the same tactic with the last 3 BoD of FISTF.
I CANN'T CHANGE MY HABITS NOW.

I feel like reporter who doing comments for the situation in a newspaper.
It is so simple. Silence is not solution.

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:50 pm

kechris wrote:Two days is a long time...

... and did at least the bus arrive meanwhile ...? Wink
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:11 am

Heinz Eder wrote:Great post Kostas,
that's the right way to unit all starters against Stefano's proposal how to play the events Very Happy

You will never understand it, ...

Hm...
even if you are probably right with your statements, I think your post won't help either...
Your experience with the whole greek situation in general and may be with Kostas specifically is far different from my one, so you may see these posts far more critical than I do.
For my part I can say that I'm interested in reading about different opinions and ideas, no matter whether I share them or not and therefor I would be really happy to see more people like Kostas posting their views.

You always wrote here that there were several mistakes in the handbook and that they have to be removed as soon as possible and reality now is proving you right.

But reality now also produced so many players who lost interest in these 'political' things because they realized that they won't have a chance to get their voice being heard or even accepted.
And the irony of this story is that all this had been possible to happen because our structures weren't professional enough; in case we had a set of professional rules and regulations, the 'professionals' would not have had any chance to get in charge...

Sorry for being off topic...


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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  kechris on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:44 am

sorry Marcus i didn't understand the joke.

Heinz you cann't understand yet my comments.
I am not sport director i was not ever canditate as sport director and before few months stefano asked my help as member of sport department for the tournaments because then he approciated my experience.
I am not represantive of my country so ALL MY COMMENTS ARE COMMENTS BY A MAN WHO THINKING AS A SIMPLE PLAYER AND AS A REPORTER.
It isn't my job to ask by Stefano to change idea for illegal silver cup.
There are a BoD (...) and many national federations for this job.

But i keep the best comments by Marcus. If the sport director will not respect the handbook in Europa cups then all the competition managers are free to organise their tournament without follow the handbook...
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:58 am

kechris wrote:sorry Marcus i didn't understand the joke.

Less of a joke than a bitter remark refering to the fact that one hour could be a very long time when you are waiting for a bus. And now it was only two days until you had been kicked out the censored forum...
Simply unbelievable...
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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:17 am

Kostas, i understand your comments very well.
You always say that you love tablesoccer, but as it seems you don't want to take any responsibility to change things to make your "love" better togehter with other people who love it too. For you it is more important to tell people that you love tablesoccer more than they do, instead of working together with those people.

That's the kind of people we need, only critizize others, but when they are asked to help you get cold feets.

If your comments are private, why do you ask here for other club's position about Stefano's system?
Why do you use the comments from this forum on the other forum to strengthen your critical comment about the system chosen by Stefano, if you are only a private single person?

I agree with you that the associations one more time don't understand how to change things, but maybe most of them are not interested enough. Have a look on the number of associations represented at the events next week-end. The majority of them are also represented on the FISTF Board.

kechris wrote:sorry Marcus i didn't understand the joke.

Heinz you cann't understand yet my comments.
I am not sport director i was not ever canditate as sport director and before few months stefano asked my help as member of sport department for the tournaments because then he approciated my experience.
I am not represantive of my country so ALL MY COMMENTS ARE COMMENTS BY A MAN WHO THINKING AS A SIMPLE PLAYER AND AS A REPORTER.
It isn't my job to ask by Stefano to change idea for illegal silver cup.
There are a BoD (...) and many national federations for this job.

But i keep the best comments by Marcus. If the sport director will not respect the handbook in Europa cups then all the competition managers are free to organise their tournament without follow the handbook...

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Re: 2011 FISTF Champions League and Europa League?

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 am

Marcus,
I also would prefer to read more people's opinions.
If it is not wished by authors like Kostas that their ideas and views are commented then they should write it in a closed chapter, that's all.
If it is not possible to discuss about ideas and views, what should be the sense to post them, if I'm not ready for feedback, especially that should be an advantage of using a forum for sharing ideas, but anyway, maybe I'm totally wrong.

I talked about several mistakes that's right, but i did it as a private person too, so I never asked officially about changes, that's the job of the association. I only wanted to get the opinion of other people, if there are more and more people who think the same about the mistakes but they bring different solutions, then it is up to the FISTF Board to take the input they can get over the forum and pick out the best solution for solving the problem. I don't care if it is my idea which is taken or not. I see it actually as my job to find mistakes and try to get as many different solutions from people as possible, nothing else.

I'm pretty sure that the FISTF Board thinks too they do the best for tablesoccer, the same way Kostas thinks.
Kostas doesn't want discussions about his views, the same way Stefano doesn't want to discuss about the system of the events of the next week-end.
So please tell me the difference between both except that you maybe agree more on the idea of Kostas in that single case now, but wouldn't you, you don't have a chance of influence too, because Kostas doesn't accept any discussion on his views too.

In the end you only prefer people like Kostas because of their position outside which is the same you actually have. Actually you are only interested in reading ideas, which are different on those you get from the board.

If you remember I told many times that the associations have to become more active, nothing happened, so they seem to be happy, that's the consequence of the association's actual behaviour. Resignation is the totally wrong way in my opinion but as it seems it is the general feeling actually.

I only critizize that associations even don't discuss with each other, I don't want to call for a rebellion, but discussions between associations should be the most normal thing, I even would include those nations, where you are pretty sure that they "follow blind" the actual board.

It would be important to get the views from many associations on many different topics. Let's take the sport surveys from FISTF, every association hides its feedback so no discussion is possible with more transparency from the associations or at least the board, associations could discuss and maybe find much better solutions, actually you have "yes" and "no", if the "yes" are more than the "no", the "no" have to accept the majority, even if they maybe have also very good arguments for their no, which should be considered too.

In combination with the discussions on the forum it could be possible to find a brighter consens, that's what Kostas calls bazar. As I said, it seems to be more important to say, "It is my idea which gets realized and not yours", instead of saying we are both happy with the solution now after discussions.
Of course it is not possible in all cases and then somebody has to decide based only on "yes" or "no", but at least there should happen discussions before that.

Kostas if you don't have time for that, you are not interested in making all players happier, you are only interested in making YOU happier.

Marcus Tilgner wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Great post Kostas,
that's the right way to unit all starters against Stefano's proposal how to play the events Very Happy

You will never understand it, ...

Hm...
even if you are probably right with your statements, I think your post won't help either...
Your experience with the whole greek situation in general and may be with Kostas specifically is far different from my one, so you may see these posts far more critical than I do.
For my part I can say that I'm interested in reading about different opinions and ideas, no matter whether I share them or not and therefor I would be really happy to see more people like Kostas posting their views.

You always wrote here that there were several mistakes in the handbook and that they have to be removed as soon as possible and reality now is proving you right.

But reality now also produced so many players who lost interest in these 'political' things because they realized that they won't have a chance to get their voice being heard or even accepted.
And the irony of this story is that all this had been possible to happen because our structures weren't professional enough; in case we had a set of professional rules and regulations, the 'professionals' would not have had any chance to get in charge...

Sorry for being off topic...



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