Disciplinary Council - latest development

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Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:57 am

As you all should know DC consists of three people (Robert Lenz, Henk Landzaat and me) and is based on the Disciplinary Regulations every association/club/player should know. If not: drop me a line and I will send you a copy.

After elections in January BoD (or was it only the president ?) decided to add two more members to the DC: Tony Sapiano and Lazaros Papakonstantinou. Due to several reasons DC denied the increase of members and answered in that way to the BoD. Until today no more reactions .....

Members of DC are appointed by the board. From the beginning of my work in the DC I thought it would be better to get appointed by the nations. This would lead to a real neutral and independent commission. So my intention in Rain was to discuss this issue within CoN. And it was agreed (have a look in the minutes of Rain).

The current DC was never replaced or dissolved by the board. Henk Landzaat wanted to resign as from this season but I don't know if he did.

During the WC happened an incident of bad behaviour from a certain player. DC began its work as usually: asking all involved (both players (withh cc to associations presidents) and referee) for a statement. The referee answered, one player answered but not the defendant. So DC set a deadline to answer but nothing happened. At least DC decided based on the given information and send out the judgement.

During this case BoD sent a letter to DC telling "that we need to refund
this Council. The main reason being that both you and Robert Lenz are now involved in different
sectors, which in my opinion make it impossible for you to be on two sides. Thus, in the coming weeks
the board will call for a nomination of people to form the new Disciplinary Council." NO word about replacing or dissolving !

I have no problem with a new formed DC but reminded the board on the discussion held in Rain and suggested to involve CoN in this question.

After sending out the judgement it was "caught" by the president by suspending it as long as there is no new DC. Two more letters on each side and a defendant blaming me personally because he feels stronger than ever.

1. At no time the current DC was not in charge or was dissolved.
2. FISTF is on its way to a bananas republic if the president - without any legal support in this matter - is going to overrule the decision of a neutral and independent commission.
3. DC is loosing its reputation if not able to sanction misbehaviour in due time.
4. We never agreed in Rain about new elections of DC. We agreed on discussing this issue in the CoN. This does not lead automatically to new elections or new members
5. Even if he has written nor the president neither the board is going to infere in this certain matter he is doing the contrary by suspending the decision.
6. It is more than critical to have a non existing DC during an unknown time period.
7. If BoD dissolves the DC it should be done in a way everybody is able to understand.

This incident is well noticed. For me it is clear we need as soon as possible a DC appointed by the nations. On the other side I can't get rid of the feeling of personal involvements to help each other within the board (defendant and one member of the board are in the same association).

Silvio, you asked me directly in Rain if you were the problem and - because your question was just emotional and out of topic - I didn't answer. But right now I am getting more and more the feeling YOU are the problem. I know you are reading this forum ....

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  panagios on Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:47 pm

So you say that all this happened because of the person involved in the incident or because the new BoD does not like the current DC?


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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:04 pm

panagios wrote:So you say that all this happened because of the person involved in the incident or because the new BoD does not like the current DC?

Both not. All happened because
1. The president is not able or not willing to act prospective
2. "One hand washes the other"
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  kechris on Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:46 pm

Ι think that all happened because the close friend of greek president (i hate the name banana republic) wants to play tomorrow in europa league!!!
I wrote many months before that greek president announced ithat his friend is PRESIDENT of FISTF's disciplinary council.
FISTF linger die. We must save it as soon is possible.
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Admin on Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:56 pm

Silvio is a huge problem.
But Koutromanos is the other problem (and with him the crazy Papakonstantinou).
Garnier, Capponi and De Francesco are also problems because they supported people who are REAL BIG PROBLEMS (even if 2 of the 3 mentionned here resigned).
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  von K. on Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:35 pm

Admin wrote:Capponi... ...are also problems because they supported people who are REAL BIG PROBLEMS

I really don't see Capponi as a problem now. I did previously. But not anymore.

I think he is genuinely for the good of the game (not for himself or his country). He just trusted the wrong people and promises earlier. But he resigned and is very critical about the situation now. WHat else can he do? Turn back time?

I think it's the same here like in Greece. People just aren't ready to see arguments and opinions without the people who write them. And if a person is labelled once, he is labelled forever.

This is the sickness causing the catastrophy. Recent developments are just symptoms. We can cure the symptoms, but the sickness stays if it's not treated to its roots.

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  drastis on Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:53 pm

I hate talking about the past, but EXCUSE ME Vincent, YOU were the one who "supported people who are REAL BIG PROBLEMS" in the first place!! YOU were the one who did not not listen to Janus Gersie when he very early discovered that the real problem in Greece had been created by the people who are now destroying FISTF.

But, you preferred to trust your liar friends then, instead of opening your eyes and ears. YOU were the one who granted these people the chance to get inside FISTF, can you please tell us how will FISTF get rid of them now??

Honestly, nothing personal against you, I do appreciate all the good things you have done for the game during the last ten years, I admit I was terribly wrong when I wrote in the past that any other President would be better than you, could you please admit that it was also a terrible mistake of yours to let these people use you to climb the stairs up to FISTF BoD?

Admin wrote:Silvio is a huge problem.
But Koutromanos is the other problem (and with him the crazy Papakonstantinou).
Garnier, Capponi and De Francesco are also problems because they supported people who are REAL BIG PROBLEMS (even if 2 of the 3 mentionned here resigned).

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  kechris on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:06 pm

One more time i have the same opinion with Vesa.
About june i wrote that Pierro is a special occasion because he had different target than the other members of BoD.
I spoke with persons in greek company of total soccer and i have good opinion for Pierro. My teammates met him last december in Madrid and they said the best comments for him. I agree with Vesa. Pierro did a mistake and help wrong persons. For me total soccer is the best and the LAST opportunity to have new young members in table soccer community. I believe this from the first time and i did promotion for a month every afternoon in the best shopping center of Athens without i ask 1e!!!
Total soccer is subbuteo of 2010. If we love really the table soccer we must help this effort to continue.
Of course total soccer is not so good as proffecional equipment. BUT when i began playing table soccer i interested to buy all my favourites teams to buy everything of subbuteo accesoires. All my friends and teammates began playing table soccer with the same way.
This is the right way. We gave our confidence to people who promise proffessional future for a game! Maybe we love the idea to be sport but at first we must protect table soccer than the dangerous people who dreamed their ass on a chair.
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  kechris on Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:25 pm

Drastis you have right but now the problem is very bigger.
Vincent maybe is the first responsible for the situation now, but he is not the certain responsible.
The certain responsible are all the persons who loves the nice words like proffessional- promotion- future - sponsors -money and they forget which mouths telling these words.
The table soccer needs experience experience and experience. People who spend 25 hours per day 32 days per month 13 months per year all their life to find solutions to solve problems to have new ideas BECAUSE THEY LOVE REALLY THE GAME.

Every year since 1996 i see new version of fifa and pro-evolution. More realistic more teams more grounds more balls more EVERYTHING. In table soccer we have the same (no clear rules) for 15 years. We have no realistic keepers balls goalpost. Offside rule is the same with the old football rule. No freekick for goal yet. The unfair players have solution for every possibility and there are not rules against them.
Only rules for transfers for members in federations for money. No body really care for the game. ONLY FOR THE MONEY
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Admin on Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:07 pm

@Drastis: I admit in former posts the mistake I did to trust Koutromanos in the past. I know what kind of man he is now and I'm sorry about my mistake but what can I don now? I still believe it was wrong from the greek table football community to hope FISTF could solve all greek problems.

As about the rest, I think everybody can now realize how FISTF has become a disaster in 9 months...

And the funny thing is to read the difference of opinion between the international ommunity and the comments you can find on the italian forum where arrogance is at his best and you can not see anything else than "Italy is the best, Italy is professional, Italy has the best tournaments, Italy has the best players, italy has the best promotion,..." (Von K. probably knows what I'm talking about) but you will never see things such like "Italy admits they made mistakes, Italy has very poor leaders or Italy doesn't understand the other nations..."

Marco de Anglis has posted a long article saying there should be a "mediterranean federation" (ooops). After all, maybe it's better to let italians live in their dreams and let the other people organize a democratic and honest federations for the players of the other nations.

Sorry to be rude but I'm more than angry today.
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  von K. on Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:34 pm

Admin wrote:
And the funny thing is to read the difference of opinion between the international ommunity and the comments you can find on the italian forum where arrogance is at his best and you can not see anything else than "Italy is the best, Italy is professional, Italy has the best tournaments, Italy has the best players, italy has the best promotion,..." (Von K. probably knows what I'm talking about) but you will never see things such like "Italy admits they made mistakes, Italy has very poor leaders or Italy doesn't understand the other nations..."

It's not as black and white as that, although I understand your point. BUT there are many people in Italy that don't think the leaders are doing a good job. The problem is that many people also don't write their opinions in the international matters there. It's a small crowd.

I've also seen growing unrest at the latest developments (greek GP for example). The information they get is not the same as in this forum. So many opinions are based on other than facts, because it comes from only a couple of people.

Admin wrote:Marco de Anglis has posted a long article saying there should be a "mediterranean federation" (ooops). After all, maybe it's better to let italians live in their dreams and let the other people organize a democratic and honest federations for the players of the other nations.

But I believe the only one who said it would be good was De Francesco. For example Tagliaferri didn't like the idea too much and said we just need to prepare to vote again (if I didn't misunderstand).

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Thossa on Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:52 am

Admin wrote: Marco de Anglis has posted a long article saying there should be a "mediterranean federation" (ooops).

Chapeau Exclamation

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  kechris on Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:43 am

von K. wrote:
I've also seen growing unrest at the latest developments (greek GP for example). The information they get is not the same as in this forum. So many opinions are based on other than facts, because it comes from only a couple of people.

Vesa i don't know your informations for greek G.P. but my informations are that 5 (five) greek players must send their apologies to Greek disciplinary council for the "happenings" of last weekend.
The one of them is the famous (right hand of president) who wanted to be member in Fistf's D.C. The joke is that he is member of Greek D.C.!!!
The second of them is the (left hand of president) who is vice president in federation and teammate of president.
But the great joke is that the two members of greek D.C. are also teammates of president...

p.s. G.P. is international tournament. For all "happenings' during an international tournament responsible is FISTF's D.C or Greek D.C.? So why the greek D.C. receive report by competition manager? Maybe they know that G.P. is not G.P. but a simple tournament!
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Thossa on Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:13 pm

kechris wrote:p.s. G.P. is international tournament. For all "happenings' during an international tournament responsible is FISTF's D.C or Greek D.C.? So why the greek D.C. receive report by competition manager? Maybe they know that G.P. is not G.P. but a simple tournament!

This is the best proof for all, it was not an offical FISTF tournament, if so, the FISTF DC would be contacted.

Clear own goal Laughing
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  von K. on Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:49 pm

Kehcris, I meant the problem with having a GP that is not official according to FISTF rules. I don't know what has happened there, but it sounds sad.

It has been so negative news lately. So as an example of a more positive and fair attitude I could mention the Finnish Championships that were played today (more and results in another section later).

In Quarter Finals we had a game 2-1, second half. Big surprise against the favourite in the air. A shooting chance for 3-1, finger foul judged by the attacker himself (defender and referee didn't see it) who could have scored the deciding goal for 3-1. In the end the attacker lost in extra time.

Also in the final, second half 0-0, the favourite was attacking and defender admitted a double himself. The attacker got a good position, but couldn't score that time.

Ok, the game in Finland is not at the level of bigger countries, but we thoroughly enjoy the game, and there was not one argument (not even small) between players or towards referee in the whole tournament. That means 37 games (level A) without problems. Because even if we play for the win, the win is never more important than the spirit.

It's easier with less players, but I would like to see good sportsmanship in bigger circles, too.

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  kechris on Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:13 pm

Because even if we play for the win, the win is never more important than the spirit.

This is Fair Play. In Greece everybody accept that i am very fair play -even my worst opponents- but this is also my big problem.
I loose my mind when i see my opponent to be unfair during the game. I can forgive the referee who didn't see it but i cann't forgive the referee when he didn't know the rules.
I want to give my congratulations to the finnish favourite who was fair player. And to all of you for the tournament with 37 games without problem.

I want to give you an of the record information. Do you know why i have in all elections in greece the players of "big" clubs against me?
Because i promise that i will stop the "sike" matches!!! They believe that "sike" matches is piece of the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But i am proud for my teamates. All of them is very fair players and the majority of greek players are also fair. The unfair players are all members in 2-3 clubs.
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  von K. on Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:58 pm

I don't know the percentage, but I think there are many, many fair players in many countries. It's just such a shame that many tournaments suffer from minority of unfair players.

The highest level of fair play is measured when the game is very important, and the player admits his foul without the referee and attacker.

I have to say it was very nice to see the WC final Flores-Bertelli, which is as important as it gets, but still it was fair. I don't remember if they admitted mistakes (did they even do them...), but every unclear situation was cleared unanimously between the players, and the referee could do his job in peace.

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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:57 am

the reason is that they want influence on that undependent commission, so they want members they know better.
Janus, Robert and Henk did an undependent job, that board doesn't seem to wish that anymore and want to replace them with the mentioned people.
the funniest thing is that one of those people has and had disciplinary problems in the past, so for sure that person is the right choice for that job.
When we introduced that council we decided the board should nominate those people, but now seeing what other people are doing with their "power" I totally agree that the members should decide about that.


panagios wrote:So you say that all this happened because of the person involved in the incident or because the new BoD does not like the current DC?


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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:59 am

Heinz Eder wrote:the reason is that they want influence on that undependent commission, so they want members they know better.
Janus, Robert and Henk did an undependent job, that board doesn't seem to wish that anymore and want to replace them with the mentioned people.
the funniest thing is that one of those people has and had disciplinary problems in the past, so for sure that person is the right choice for that job.
When we introduced that council we decided the board should nominate those people, but now seeing what other people are doing with their "power" I totally agree that the members should decide about that.


When Silvio came up with the idea of integrating Lazaros in the DC it was easy to tell him "NO WAY" and I fully support the idea of having other names in the DC. It is just the wrong time for that. I really think Silvio is not aware what's going on in our global community. Knocking down the DC at the current stage of development within FISTF is just stupid.
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Re: Disciplinary Council - latest development

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:29 am

I thought we agreed on it that there are more people included in the DC in case there is a case with an austrian, german or dutch player involved, then this member should be replaced for THAT case by somebody from another country.
Anyway I think that the DC is a bit hanging in the air currently, because without reports you don't have work, but I'm pretty sure no report doesn't mean that nothing happened.

Heinz

Janus_Gersie wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:the reason is that they want influence on that undependent commission, so they want members they know better.
Janus, Robert and Henk did an undependent job, that board doesn't seem to wish that anymore and want to replace them with the mentioned people.
the funniest thing is that one of those people has and had disciplinary problems in the past, so for sure that person is the right choice for that job.
When we introduced that council we decided the board should nominate those people, but now seeing what other people are doing with their "power" I totally agree that the members should decide about that.


When Silvio came up with the idea of integrating Lazaros in the DC it was easy to tell him "NO WAY" and I fully support the idea of having other names in the DC. It is just the wrong time for that. I really think Silvio is not aware what's going on in our global community. Knocking down the DC at the current stage of development within FISTF is just stupid.

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