Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  kechris on Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:12 pm

I can't believe that Masters costs 500e. Tickets and Hotels only 500 e for twelve persons?
Im my mind it isn't the american association for my proposal. I don't knoe how many ACTIVE members are in USA but i know that USA is bigger than Europe. So they spend many moneys in tickets.
In my mind i had Brasil Argentina Australia India S.Africa etc and i believe that FISTF could pay the hotel, no the tickets.
FISTF must organise a programm for to find money to call all players once per 4 years at least.
In world cup and in Europa Cups there aren't fee for participations (clubs players nations). If you asked 5-10e by players and 10-20e by clubs and nations you could find about 2000e per year. So after 3 years you can spend extra more than 5000e to call 50 players and to pay their hotel.
I was not member of BoD so i haven't information for special occasions like this but i think that if i was member i would find solution in few hours.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Heinz Eder on Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:29 pm

FISTF supports the Masters with 1000 EUR every second year, that means FISTF could save 500 EUR every season. The hotel at the Masters is paid by the organizer.
In the current situation (WC every year) it wouldn't be a big support.
In your post you opened another discussion about how often we need a World Cup generally.

Do you really think to motivate people by paying them maybe 10% of their expenses? Sorry, but you seem to think that other people were not able to find solutions for problems, because you don't know the arguments. You easy can say you find a solution in a few hours, but do you know, if it will bring a single additional player from outside of Europe to a World Cup?
You can write down and decide very fast (we can currently see it), but to reach what you want, is a totally different story.

kechris wrote:I can't believe that Masters costs 500e. Tickets and Hotels only 500 e for twelve persons?
Im my mind it isn't the american association for my proposal. I don't knoe how many ACTIVE members are in USA but i know that USA is bigger than Europe. So they spend many moneys in tickets.
In my mind i had Brasil Argentina Australia India S.Africa etc and i believe that FISTF could pay the hotel, no the tickets.
FISTF must organise a programm for to find money to call all players once per 4 years at least.
In world cup and in Europa Cups there aren't fee for participations (clubs players nations). If you asked 5-10e by players and 10-20e by clubs and nations you could find about 2000e per year. So after 3 years you can spend extra more than 5000e to call 50 players and to pay their hotel.
I was not member of BoD so i haven't information for special occasions like this but i think that if i was member i would find solution in few hours.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:17 pm

My answer to the original question is "YES".

The current FISTF is far too Euro-centric. Make it the European confederation, UESTFA.

Create a new FISTF with equal representation from all the continental confederations. Each confederation would nominate one representative.

As we are in the era of Skype, Google Talk, etc. there is no reason why the world body cannot meet online.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  kechris on Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:04 pm

Dear Heinz.
I don't know exactly the cost for a so long flight but i think if the booking is early the price will be about 500e. The hotel is about 100e and we can find a solution like master (the organiser pay the hotel for the participations out of europe).
Sorry but i think that if we want really to find solution for no-Europe players we can find easy. Maybe in future we will find better solution but we must start with a simple beggining idea.
I have question. If FISTF was your OWN company how many time you need to find solution for a promotion like this (world cup with players all over the world)? If you are manager and your boss ask a proposal how many time you will asked by him for an answer? Four years?
Look now the situation in FISTF. We didn't take decisions in Rain and now 60 days later the FISTF is out of programm. Nothing working correct. NOTHING.
That is the problem of table soccer. All the responsible people don't care really for table soccer but care to keep his chair so they hate to take decisions.
Do you remember my slogan? the solutions are easy the decisions are difficult.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Thossa on Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:32 pm

I second that, Simon.

Simon_H wrote:My answer to the original question is "YES".

The current FISTF is far too Euro-centric. Make it the European confederation, UESTFA.

Create a new FISTF with equal representation from all the continental confederations. Each confederation would nominate one representative.

As we are in the era of Skype, Google Talk, etc. there is no reason why the world body cannot meet online.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:21 am

Kostas, i'm really bored by your comments do you have something new for us? Always the same in your opinion no board member cares for FISTF they only care for their chair. What is your simple solution for that problem? Organize FISTF without people who take any responsibility?
You are one of those who are shouting loudest. Your ideas are only populist. Give them 50 EUR and people from outside of europe will storm the World Cup. You hopefully don't really believe in that?
I can make a proposal very fast, but the question is if FISTF has the possibility to realize my proposal. You think by making only proposals you did your job, everybody is happy with you, but the others have to say it is not possible and they are the bad guys then.
You really seem to think that people are idiots, and you are the only one looking for solutions.
If my boss would ask a solution from me, I would have to analyze my possibilities first, before making an utopic proposal and my boss asks me, if I lost my sense for reality. You don't seem to think before posting your proposals here.
You should decide what you want, real managers, or people who care for FISTF.

kechris wrote:Dear Heinz.
I don't know exactly the cost for a so long flight but i think if the booking is early the price will be about 500e. The hotel is about 100e and we can find a solution like master (the organiser pay the hotel for the participations out of europe).
Sorry but i think that if we want really to find solution for no-Europe players we can find easy. Maybe in future we will find better solution but we must start with a simple beggining idea.
I have question. If FISTF was your OWN company how many time you need to find solution for a promotion like this (world cup with players all over the world)? If you are manager and your boss ask a proposal how many time you will asked by him for an answer? Four years?
Look now the situation in FISTF. We didn't take decisions in Rain and now 60 days later the FISTF is out of programm. Nothing working correct. NOTHING.
That is the problem of table soccer. All the responsible people don't care really for table soccer but care to keep his chair so they hate to take decisions.
Do you remember my slogan? the solutions are easy the decisions are difficult.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  kechris on Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:33 pm

Dear Heinz
if you bored with my answers please stop answer to me.
my comments are for all table soccer community no only for you.
i believe that you want answer now because you were member of BoD AND YOU DIDN'T ANYTHING FOR THIS MATTER.
so please because i hadn't the opportunity to prove that my ideas are right stop criticize me but do it for your acts as BoD member.
if you read the forums you can see that ALL my comments for the future are right. I am not medium in front of a glass ball with smoke but a person who HEAR the others opinions.
If i was your boss and i asked you a proposal i can wait for years an answer or hearing you to analyze possibilities. You like dialogue and i like dialogue. But i like to solve the problem in time no waiting the problem to be solved alone. (maybe my english in this point is very bad).
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:26 pm

did you maybe think only one second that your simple solutions maybe don't solve the problem?
you only see one small part, then you bring a simple solution, but you don't see the whole thing.
your solution is to give let's say 100 EUR to somebody who has to pay 700 EUR to come to a World Cup in Europe, great solution, I'm pretty sure you won't motivate one single player with your simple solution, but as usual yoou only have that one simple solution, if somebody want to explain you that it won't work, you are not ready to modify yoour solution or bring in another idea.
It's always the same Kostas, that's the boring thing.

kechris wrote:Dear Heinz
if you bored with my answers please stop answer to me.
my comments are for all table soccer community no only for you.
i believe that you want answer now because you were member of BoD AND YOU DIDN'T ANYTHING FOR THIS MATTER.
so please because i hadn't the opportunity to prove that my ideas are right stop criticize me but do it for your acts as BoD member.
if you read the forums you can see that ALL my comments for the future are right. I am not medium in front of a glass ball with smoke but a person who HEAR the others opinions.
If i was your boss and i asked you a proposal i can wait for years an answer or hearing you to analyze possibilities. You like dialogue and i like dialogue. But i like to solve the problem in time no waiting the problem to be solved alone. (maybe my english in this point is very bad).

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  kechris on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:58 pm

So your idea is better?
What is your idea after 4 years as sport director?
nothing...
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:25 am

Has anyone ever asked why non-Europeans don't participate more? I suppose it has been asked.

But why then nothing has been done to make the World Cup more interesting for players from smaller countries and non-Europeans? If the World Cup has 4 matches to offer you in 2 days, why travel. If the World Cup can offer 10-12 games in 2 days, it's a completely different thing. Playing only impossible opponents (too many players from big countries) doesn't interest as much as having also some possibilities. I know at least 1 country that don't participate because of this, too few games and almost all impossible.

The World Cup should be about more countries, even if the quality drops a little. That can be compensated with exclusive high quality tournaments (maybe 4 in a year) for only the best players (no limitations for countries). These could also be used for promotion. Sort of a Masters Series.

If the FISTF wants to grow and have a global game, it has to ask people what they want and need. The decisions have to be adjusted to the feedback. It's extremely easy to organise anything the big Europeans want. It's much more difficult to organise something that takes into consideration the smaller and more distant countries (even inside Europe).

The game, the countries, the clubs and the players are not homogenic, far from it. Why is everything done thinking that they are? This thinking drives people away from FISTF.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:55 am

To be more precise and give an example about the game being heterogenic I would say look at the geography of for example Europe, North America, South America, Australia and Africa, why not also Asia. How can you expect the same things, the same development, the same ideas and the same needs and wants?

What we should expect is enthusiasm for the game.

One problem of this homogenic and eurocentric thinking is, that it doesn't change anything even if there was a European federation. The same problem would exist if Russia was very active and the most active part of Russia was Kamchatka. It's still Europe politically (or in sport), even though not geologically (the same with many previous Russian federations that are now independent). So even Europe is not so uncomplicated after all...

(I have to laugh also, when thinking what the Italian federation would say, if the World Cup would be given to Moscow, but the Russians would change it to Petropavlovsk, because it was given to Russia as a country.)

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  kechris on Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:36 am

I hate myself because my English is not so good like your Vesa.
You are a thief. You steal everytime my ideas and you write them for you.
Of course i use this joke because i i want to say to you that i agree with you A B S O L U T E L Y.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:17 am

von K. wrote:(I have to laugh also, when thinking what the Italian federation would say, if the World Cup would be given to Moscow, but the Russians would change it to Petropavlovsk, because it was given to Russia as a country.)
Laughing
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  panagios on Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:25 am

my opinion is that fistf should just follow the example of FIFA before the 90's. few international tournaments, continental tournaments, promotion of domestic game in order to attract players. fewer international tournaments, WCs, ECs etc means greater value for them, focus on them etc. after you establish a world base of 20,000 players, implement another plan.

just think about it

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:02 am

Admin wrote:
von K. wrote:(I have to laugh also, when thinking what the Italian federation would say, if the World Cup would be given to Moscow, but the Russians would change it to Petropavlovsk, because it was given to Russia as a country.)
Laughing

If the president of the russian association would live in Petropavlovsk no wonder... Cool
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Thossa on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:07 am

panagios wrote:my opinion is that fistf should just follow the example of FIFA before the 90's. few international tournaments, continental tournaments, promotion of domestic game in order to attract players. fewer international tournaments, WCs, ECs etc means greater value for them, focus on them etc. after you establish a world base of 20,000 players, implement another plan.

just think about it

For the moment in fact quite the reverse is true. Look at the FISTF "World Grand Masters" on small Gozo with a wildcard for six or seven maltese players.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:38 am

panagios wrote:my opinion is that fistf should just follow the example of FIFA before the 90's. few international tournaments, continental tournaments, promotion of domestic game in order to attract players. fewer international tournaments, WCs, ECs etc means greater value for them, focus on them etc. after you establish a world base of 20,000 players, implement another plan.

just think about it
There is no perfect solution and whatever the way the circuit will be organized, there will always be unhappy people.
For instance, how can you say you want to extend the community to 20.000 players (instead of 2000) if you don't make attractive tournaments for new players.
I agree that tournaments like Mons or Bologne are fantastic but do they really help to get new players? I don't think so because new players travel there, play 2 or 3 games and then it's over.
I have always had the faith in tournaments such as Satellites, Challengers and Futures because they are great for new players, because the level is "not so high" and because it gives the possibility for players who can not travel abroad to play for world ranking points.
I believe it is the same as in tennis. There are more than 1000 professional players in the ATP ranking but many people can not say the name of any player ranked over the top 300. The reason is simple: there are many tennis players who are not good enough to play Roland-Garros or the US Open but who only play in smaller events (called Satellites, Challengers and Futures like in table football!).
I agree that these events are not easy to roganize in small associations. For instance, I could hardly see Finland organize 1 GP, 2 Opens, 3 Satellites, 3 challengers and 3 Futures because there are not many (not enough?) active players over there. But I believe countries such as Spain, Greece, Italy, Belgium, the USA, France,... could see a good way to get more and more players involved thanks to these tournaments. Very weak players and newcomes should better attend Challengers and Futures instead of Grand Prix.
Some nation shave understood the interest of these tournaments, others didn't. Watch SINGAPORE: they have some "big" events where foreign players from Australia, Hong Kong and Malaysia compete but they also have Futures for their new generation of players and I believe it's really a great move for the sport.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  kechris on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:55 pm

Sorry Vincent but for me you have wrong.
You confuse the job for FISTF with the job for the national associations.
FISTF's target is 2 great tournaments like majors per month in the 22 different countries and 2 weekends for W.C. or E.C. for players clubs and nations.
A GRAND SLAM. I prefer and i think the more players, few and very popular tournaments like Mons Bologna Berlin MiltonKeynes Amsterdam Wienna than every weekend 2 satellites chalengers futures in every corner of the world.
I want to go to Glascow to Helsinski to Valleta to Lisbon and to see 100 participations by all countries.
Last year i went Wienna and we found 12 veterans 36 "open" and 8 teams. We dissapointed. The organisation was good but the tables empty. Because the players selected another tournament in other country.
FISTF must gave a programm with 24 weekends for tournaments (one weekend play, the next no)
to select the last weekend of August or the first of september for the W.C. and a weekend (six months later) in February for Champions League (October is so early for the clubs because the tranfers stop few weeks before).
And after the national federations can organise the rest ~22 weekends (no christmas no new year no eastern) tournaments for all local players.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Heinz Eder on Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:17 pm

We tried something like that, when we wanted Grand Prix and Major week-ends and the other week-ends for the other tournaments.
Maybe it is too much to have 2 International Open, 3 Satellites, 3 Challengers and 3 Futures in every country, but I think we need those tournaments too, but maybe only 1 for each country, then the numbers in those tournaments maybe will be higher too. Currently players from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and France prefer it to travel to a belgian International Open, before they make the trip to play the austrian Grand Prix for an example. If there are less tournaments maybe some people from those countries who want to play events, will choose a Grand Prix in another country too.
If we have a look on the "biggest" events like Major and Grand Prix, we currently have about 15 week-ends filled with those events, and none of those events is played on the same week-end with another big "event".
The "small" events should especially be used by the new associations that they have FISTF events and players can be ranked, but a new association shouldn't organize an International Open in its second year of activity.
Allowing them to organize an IO means that in most cases they can only organize an international open in the following season too, because those less players they have are already ranked too good after their first IO that they can organize events like Challengers or Futures.
FISTF needs to give especially the new associations a guide how to develop. We did that in the last 2 years and nobody complained, when you explain it.

kechris wrote:Sorry Vincent but for me you have wrong.
You confuse the job for FISTF with the job for the national associations.
FISTF's target is 2 great tournaments like majors per month in the 22 different countries and 2 weekends for W.C. or E.C. for players clubs and nations.
A GRAND SLAM. I prefer and i think the more players, few and very popular tournaments like Mons Bologna Berlin MiltonKeynes Amsterdam Wienna than every weekend 2 satellites chalengers futures in every corner of the world.
I want to go to Glascow to Helsinski to Valleta to Lisbon and to see 100 participations by all countries.
Last year i went Wienna and we found 12 veterans 36 "open" and 8 teams. We dissapointed. The organisation was good but the tables empty. Because the players selected another tournament in other country.
FISTF must gave a programm with 24 weekends for tournaments (one weekend play, the next no)
to select the last weekend of August or the first of september for the W.C. and a weekend (six months later) in February for Champions League (October is so early for the clubs because the tranfers stop few weeks before).
And after the national federations can organise the rest ~22 weekends (no christmas no new year no eastern) tournaments for all local players.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  von K. on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:20 pm

panagios wrote:fewer international tournaments, WCs, ECs etc means greater value for them, focus on them etc.

I think this is the way. The details are decisive and have to be thought of carefully, but the idea is right.

Less international competitions means more interest/competition.

The game also maybe needs new competition system for different levels of play (look below, the ELO rating) and professionalism (jeans/no jeans, alcohol/no alcohol etc).

Heinz Eder wrote:
The "small" events should especially be used by the new associations that they have FISTF events and players can be ranked, but a new association shouldn't organize an International Open in its second year of activity.
Allowing them to organize an IO means that in most cases they can only organize an international open in the following season too, because those less players they have are already ranked too good after their first IO that they can organize events like Challengers or Futures.

The answer for this is a different ranking system. The ELO rating (and similar systems) is used in chess. In a game like this the ranking is only telling who travels a lot and who is the best in a remote country. It's ridiculous that we have in Finland many players inside 200 and one well inside 100.

1 GP/IO in a year can be unbelievably important for a new country. We had a Satellite in Finland as the first tournament of this new era. The only foreigner participating was living in Finland at the time. The first GP/IO opened our eyes and we saw the true game. That tournament and the following years' tournaments have been extremely important for the development of the game in Finland.

The (too) many Satellites, Challengers and Futures can be replaced with national activity (it can be open for foreigners, but without FISTF). For new players national activity should be as good as international.

Heinz Eder wrote:
FISTF needs to give especially the new associations a guide how to develop.

FISTF marketing could also work on creating a template of a program for activity for kids in schools etc. Clearly the best way to attract young players is the way of Paul Eyes in the USA. Ok, he's a teacher, but the idea could be used in many countries. If the program template would be ready, it would help contacting schools and starting activity in those.


Last edited by von K. on Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:52 am

I think it is not important in the first step to have foreign players at your FISTF events. Some players of the new associations should be ready to travel to play against players from other countries, they bring back their experience anyway.
Development doesn't mean to me to develop the game of a player, I mean a development in organization of events. Grand Prixs and International Open should already be bigger events with some skills in organization.
It is something different to organize an event with 4 or 8 tables or you start with organizing an event with 20 tables and a starter field of 50 players. That needs experience too.
If you want to improve your game you can travel to play against players from other countries, you don't need a Grand Prix in your country in the first or the second season, that's my opinion.

I know the ELO ranking we used it in austria for about 20 years. As far as I know, the ELO ranking only works with every single game right?
You have a coefficient telling you how many points you get for a win, or a draw and it also depends on the difference of points between both players, right?

von K. wrote:
panagios wrote:fewer international tournaments, WCs, ECs etc means greater value for them, focus on them etc.

I think this is the way. The details are decisive and have to be thought of carefully, but the idea is right.

Less international competitions means more interest/competition.

The game also maybe needs new competition system for different levels of play (look below, the ELO rating) and professionalism (jeans/no jeans, alcohol/no alcohol etc).

Heinz Eder wrote:
The "small" events should especially be used by the new associations that they have FISTF events and players can be ranked, but a new association shouldn't organize an International Open in its second year of activity.
Allowing them to organize an IO means that in most cases they can only organize an international open in the following season too, because those less players they have are already ranked too good after their first IO that they can organize events like Challengers or Futures.

The answer for this is a different ranking system. The ELO rating (and similar systems) is used in chess. In a game like this the ranking is only telling who travels a lot and who is the best in a remote country. It's ridiculous that we have in Finland many players inside 200 and on well inside 100.

1 GP/IO in a year can be unbelievably important for a new country. We had a Satellite in Finland as the first tournament of this new era. The only foreigner participating was living in Finland at the time. The first GP/IO opened our eyes and we saw the true game. That tournament and the following years' tournaments have been extremely important for the development of the game in Finland.

The (too) many Satellites, Challengers and Futures can be replaced with national activity (it can be open for foreigners, but without FISTF). For new players national activity should be as good as international.

Heinz Eder wrote:
FISTF needs to give especially the new associations a guide how to develop.

FISTF marketing could also work on creating a template of a program for activity for kids in schools etc. Clearly the best way to attract young players is the way of Paul Eyes in the USA. Ok, he's a teacher, but the idea could be used in many countries. If the program template would be ready, it would help contacting schools and starting activity in those.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  von K. on Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:47 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:I think it is not important in the first step to have foreign players at your FISTF events. Some players of the new associations should be ready to travel to play against players from other countries, they bring back their experience anyway.
Development doesn't mean to me to develop the game of a player, I mean a development in organization of events. Grand Prixs and International Open should already be bigger events with some skills in organization.
It is something different to organize an event with 4 or 8 tables or you start with organizing an event with 20 tables and a starter field of 50 players. That needs experience too.
If you want to improve your game you can travel to play against players from other countries, you don't need a Grand Prix in your country in the first or the second season, that's my opinion.

This is also true. But again the situation is very different in different countries. Countries that have more difficult to travel to other countries (the good or active players are not always the ones with time and money), can still attract foreign players who like to travel. There can be only 1 or 2 players able to travel, but out of 1000 foreigners at least a couple are always interested.

But I don't know why Finland would have organised another Satellite etc. if no one is interested in it? It's far better and easier to organise our own national tournaments.

The visiting foreigners have also made our interest in for example the World Cup bigger.

The question doesn't have a clear answer, and I understand your view also.

Heinz Eder wrote:I know the ELO ranking we used it in austria for about 20 years. As far as I know, the ELO ranking only works with every single game right?
You have a coefficient telling you how many points you get for a win, or a draw and it also depends on the difference of points between both players, right?

In short it is something like this. I'm not an expert in explaining this system, but I know the benefits. It's the same idea that for example the FIFA ranking uses.

The idea is to rank players according to quality. And you would get more points (your ranking would be better) if you win a tournament in which you meet top players, than a tournament where you meet average players.

Amount of games of course has some meaning, but you can't get to the top just by travelling and winning tournaments in small countries. And with smaller amount of games you can get higher, than at the moment, if you are really a top player.

If you want to rank players according to quality, this system is far better than the one we use (which is designed for professional sports with tours).

With a good computer user and a suitable program, a demo could be made quite quickly. A demo can be made by giving all players the same start rating (1,500 is the normal), and driving the results of for example one year with the program.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:26 am

About the ELO ranking, do you want somebody to type every single result to get a ranking? Or do you have basic points and according on the players in the starterfield the tournament has a kind of coefficient that decides about the final points every player should get?
I think that would be a better system, because it is a lot of work to type every single result.
About the tournaments, if you don't want to organize a Satellite and organize instead of it a national competition it is great too. I only wanted to point out that it is better to organize a Satellite with 8 players before an association requests an International Open or even Grand Prix with 8 players and only 1 category.
I asked myself in the last days, why there wasn't a finnish team at the last ECs? Is the team play not so popular in finland? The EC would be the perfect tournament for teams from countries like Finland. You really get many games for the high travelling costs.

Heinz

von K. wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:I think it is not important in the first step to have foreign players at your FISTF events. Some players of the new associations should be ready to travel to play against players from other countries, they bring back their experience anyway.
Development doesn't mean to me to develop the game of a player, I mean a development in organization of events. Grand Prixs and International Open should already be bigger events with some skills in organization.
It is something different to organize an event with 4 or 8 tables or you start with organizing an event with 20 tables and a starter field of 50 players. That needs experience too.
If you want to improve your game you can travel to play against players from other countries, you don't need a Grand Prix in your country in the first or the second season, that's my opinion.

This is also true. But again the situation is very different in different countries. Countries that have more difficult to travel to other countries (the good or active players are not always the ones with time and money), can still attract foreign players who like to travel. There can be only 1 or 2 players able to travel, but out of 1000 foreigners at least a couple are always interested.

But I don't know why Finland would have organised another Satellite etc. if no one is interested in it? It's far better and easier to organise our own national tournaments.

The visiting foreigners have also made our interest in for example the World Cup bigger.

The question doesn't have a clear answer, and I understand your view also.

Heinz Eder wrote:I know the ELO ranking we used it in austria for about 20 years. As far as I know, the ELO ranking only works with every single game right?
You have a coefficient telling you how many points you get for a win, or a draw and it also depends on the difference of points between both players, right?

In short it is something like this. I'm not an expert in explaining this system, but I know the benefits. It's the same idea that for example the FIFA ranking uses.

The idea is to rank players according to quality. And you would get more points (your ranking would be better) if you win a tournament in which you meet top players, than a tournament where you meet average players.

Amount of games of course has some meaning, but you can't get to the top just by travelling and winning tournaments in small countries. And with smaller amount of games you can get higher, than at the moment, if you are really a top player.

If you want to rank players according to quality, this system is far better than the one we use (which is designed for professional sports with tours).

With a good computer user and a suitable program, a demo could be made quite quickly. A demo can be made by giving all players the same start rating (1,500 is the normal), and driving the results of for example one year with the program.

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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  zinga on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:06 am

Heinz Eder wrote:I asked myself in the last days, why there wasn't a finnish team at the last ECs? Is the team play not so popular in finland? The EC would be the perfect tournament for teams from countries like Finland. You really get many games for the high travelling costs.
We (in Finland) are slowly developing the team competitions. Last year we had the first team national championship. The only problem is that majority of the players are more interested to play in the well organized national circuit than in the international competitions. Thus, it is hard to get all players of the team to go to one tournament. However, the EC (or whatever it will be) is very interesting and I am quite sure that some Finnish team(s) will participate in the future.
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Re: Maybe it is time for an european association under FISTF

Post  von K. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:47 am

I somehow missed this question, Heinz.

Zinga's explanation is correct, but needs some adding. Practically only one team has 4 or more players of a level that there is any idea of going abroad. The others have at least 1 player who can be considered a novice (5-0 or more against top finnish players), and maximum 2-3 players who are ready to travel abroad. The players of the biggest team are scattered around in 5 cities with distances of up to 300 km between them, and only some of them are interested (or have a possibility) in travelling. So even for them finding enough players to go, and getting a good weekend for all of them, is very hard.

It's possible that the team structure will change in the future, to allow us the chance to go abroad (most top players would like to do that). Also we will possibly see if there is the possibility to find a foreigner without a club who would be interested in a couple of tournaments a year.

The interest is there, the possibilities at the moment are not.

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