A question about the number of associations

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A question about the number of associations

Post  Admin on Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:34 am

Until now, 30 countries have organized table football tournaments (since the creation of FISTF in 1993).

48 nations have been represented in world rankings (in the last 10 years).

But... according to Stefano De Francesco (on the italian forum), to be a member nation, a country should:
- be a legal association
- have at least 30 registered players
- organize national and international activities
- have at least 2 teams (in 2 different categories) at the world cup.

Only according to the last point, there are only 11 nations who should be accepted as members. But are we sure there are really 30 "registered players" in Gibraltar and the Netherlands?

Are we sure Greece and England are really "legal associations"?

So we might just have an FISTF with 7 member nations (Italy, Belgium, Malta, France, Spain, Austria and Germany)?

So it means all other associations should not have the right to say anything more?
Is it fair for countries with a huge history such as Scotland, Portugal, Wales, Denmark, Finalnd?
Is it fair for very small associations like Northern Ireland, Ireland, Monaco, Switzerland?
Is it fair for nations outside of Europe but with a good activity such as Singapore, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, South Africa?
What about Japan, Canada, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Norway or the Czech Republic?

In the FISTF statutes, the first aims of FISTF are as follows:
2-1 To promote the sport table football in all possible ways.
2-2 To develop friendly relationships between officials and players of National Associations by promoting the
organization of matches of the sport table football in every area.
2-3 To manage the sport table football by taking all necessary statutory and regulatory measures and decisions
for the sports, administrative and financial management of the sport table football al the world level.

Therefore, if FISTF is run by 7 or 9 or 11 nations (who are all close of each other), it is impossible to give a positive end to the first 3 aims of the FISTF statutes.

We must concentrate on the fact that we are a very small community. Even Italy, with 1000 players, remains an extremely small association.

We can not exclude anyone. And if some nations don't have the right to be part of the show, there is some kind of exclusion.

We must struggle against the idea to make table football "a sport for the elite" or "a sport for rich people who can afford to travel abroad several times a year".

When I read some things rom the italian forum, not only I believe some italian people (fortunately not all of them) still think "Italy is the center of the world" but they don't understand that all countries are different and we must accept that.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Thossa on Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:04 pm

FISCT is maybe a semiprofessional association with more than 1000 members, but my former club VfL Kamen (a spots club with more than 10 departments like Football, Tennis, Athletics...) have more than 3000 members, but it is only a small sports club compared to other sports clubs like in larger cities like Dortmund, Cologne or Berlin. But VfL Kamen is big compared to FISCT.

It is absolutely okay, when the italians are pround on what they have, but they pretty sure don´t need pink sun-glasses of course.

FISTF was, is and still will be (as long as no major sponsor pumps a lot of money in) nothing more than an amateur association based on voluntary work. As long as this is not changed, FISTF is better helped without too high administrative barriers, selfish attitutes.... and must come down on earth from the cloud of professionalism organised by bunglers.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  panagios on Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:53 pm

Having said that, you should also have a discussion with the Italians about their success in promoting the sport in Italy and possible application of this method all over the globe. Apparently, they did something right there, never forget this.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:08 pm

I'm splitted a bit, I must say honestly.
I don't think it has something to do with sport for rich people or something like that.
Feelings about rich and poor are different. Maybe Vincent can remember when we discussed about a change in the system of membership fees, when I told you what you have to pay in Austria, you were astonished. Cool
In the end we must see that 100 EUR membership fee is not fair too, because for Italy 100 EUR isn't as much as maybe for Finland, if you have a look how much money Italy attracts from its members and how much money Finland attracts from its members (in case they ask for the same membership fee). Currently we are in the situation that Italy says, we are the biggest federation, so we must be better than other federations, and all others answer them "Yes, but we pay the same like Italy every year, so we have the same voice like Italy".
Both views are not totally right, but they aren't totally wrong too.
I agree on it, that FISTF must have a look on it, if an association is officially recognized in the country, but please don't make the mistake to look for registered sports, because then FISTF will end up with 1 or 2 members. Some people unfortunately don't understand the difference between recognized sport and recognized association in a country. It would also be interesting to know the statutes out of other views, Imagine there is an association existing where it is written down that only members are allowed to play FISTF tournaments. Normally FISTF would have to interrupt and tell the association to change the statutes in that point.
I agree on that legal stuff, because it shows a bit how serious things are taken in a country. We also have to see that FISTF is a legal federation, so we can't accept that people vote for a legal body, if they are not legal in their own country or if they are not allowed to represent the association in external matters.
Legal should mean a recognized association with legal statutes.
I wouldn't go so far to ask for a specific number of players, that's too simple. You can't compare 30 members in Austria with 30 members in Germany for an example. Austria has 8 Mio. people, Germany 80 Mio.
I don't think it would help the sport to ask for 2 teams in 2 categories. Is it the future of FISTF to have member associations only because they send an Open and Veteran Team to each World Cup?
What we need is to help some associations in their development and management. I never can understand that associations say, we can't send young people to a World Cup because of costs. I always ask myself then, aren't there mambership fees existing in such an association?
Ask from every member 20 EUR every year (less than 2 EUR every month), if you have 50 members you have 1000 EUR. Every association can spend 1000 EUR to give financial support for their youth to come to a World Cup. Of course associations have to offer something even for less than 2 EUR every month. That's the next point.
Championships are important for an association, it is the motivation to become member of an association. In Austria you need to be member too if you want to play national championships. The only exceptions are the categories. I think it isn't bad to force people to be member of an association that they can play, because it is money for the association to support the youth or promotion on different events.
Of course everybody is welcome at international tournaments in Austria without being member. I don't understand the logic of a behaviour like that. If I don't let people play, I loose starting fees, if I let them play it doesn't change anything for the association. I would understand that behaviour if associations would have to pay more, if the number of players who played international events is higher. Then i would agree on it, if associations would say they don't want people to play FISTF events who are not members.
Currently I don't see any negative aspect that an organizer or an association can say they don't want some players to play international events in or outside their country.
I would maybe support the idea that players who play the WC or Europa Cup have to be member of an association, because the association nominates teams and players, that would mean a national rule and has nothing to do with FISTF.
On the other side if they qualify over the WR they should be allowed to represent their country (there is a difference between country and association).
So in my opinion FISTF doesn't need any licencing system at all, because FISTF wants many players at FISTF events, the rest has to be done on national level.
As it seems some people want to get money double that players are allowed to play FISTF events. One time they ask for starting fees and on the other side every player has to pay membership fee of the association. That's not right, sorry.

Heinz
Admin wrote:Until now, 30 countries have organized table football tournaments (since the creation of FISTF in 1993).

48 nations have been represented in world rankings (in the last 10 years).

But... according to Stefano De Francesco (on the italian forum), to be a member nation, a country should:
- be a legal association
- have at least 30 registered players
- organize national and international activities
- have at least 2 teams (in 2 different categories) at the world cup.

Only according to the last point, there are only 11 nations who should be accepted as members. But are we sure there are really 30 "registered players" in Gibraltar and the Netherlands?

Are we sure Greece and England are really "legal associations"?

So we might just have an FISTF with 7 member nations (Italy, Belgium, Malta, France, Spain, Austria and Germany)?

So it means all other associations should not have the right to say anything more?
Is it fair for countries with a huge history such as Scotland, Portugal, Wales, Denmark, Finalnd?
Is it fair for very small associations like Northern Ireland, Ireland, Monaco, Switzerland?
Is it fair for nations outside of Europe but with a good activity such as Singapore, the USA, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, South Africa?
What about Japan, Canada, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Norway or the Czech Republic?

In the FISTF statutes, the first aims of FISTF are as follows:
2-1 To promote the sport table football in all possible ways.
2-2 To develop friendly relationships between officials and players of National Associations by promoting the
organization of matches of the sport table football in every area.
2-3 To manage the sport table football by taking all necessary statutory and regulatory measures and decisions
for the sports, administrative and financial management of the sport table football al the world level.

Therefore, if FISTF is run by 7 or 9 or 11 nations (who are all close of each other), it is impossible to give a positive end to the first 3 aims of the FISTF statutes.

We must concentrate on the fact that we are a very small community. Even Italy, with 1000 players, remains an extremely small association.

We can not exclude anyone. And if some nations don't have the right to be part of the show, there is some kind of exclusion.

We must struggle against the idea to make table football "a sport for the elite" or "a sport for rich people who can afford to travel abroad several times a year".

When I read some things rom the italian forum, not only I believe some italian people (fortunately not all of them) still think "Italy is the center of the world" but they don't understand that all countries are different and we must accept that.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Thossa on Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:20 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:
In the end we must see that 100 EUR membership fee is not fair too, because for Italy 100 EUR isn't as much as maybe for Finland, if you have a look how much money Italy attracts from its members and how much money Finland attracts from its members (in case they ask for the same membership fee). Currently we are in the situation that Italy says, we are the biggest federation, so we must be better than other federations, and all others answer them "Yes, but we pay the same like Italy every year, so we have the same voice like Italy".

What is the meaning of this?
Should Italy pay more membership fee than 100 € to FISTF or Finland less than 100 €?
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:11 pm

We can also see it from a different view.
There are about 1300 italian players out of about 3900 registered in FISTF database.
In the ranking of september there are about 600 players (i didn't look how many are mentioned in 2 categories). Those 600 players played at least 1 FISTF event in the last 2 years. If we consider that about 50 players play FISTF tournaments outside of Italy and the rest plays only FISTF events in Italy, numbers are looking different again!?
Italy has in no category except of Veterans more than 25% of all ranked players in a category.

Of course there is no doubt that Italy is the strongest federation of FISTF, but FISTF has 25% of players from Italy in average and there are less than 20% of italian members in FISTF ranking, which means there are less than 20% of italian members who play FISTF events.

So I think there are 2 possibilities:
Italy has internal restrictions on it who is allowed to play FISTF events.
There are only 20% of italian members interested in FISTF events.

Heinz

Thossa wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:
In the end we must see that 100 EUR membership fee is not fair too, because for Italy 100 EUR isn't as much as maybe for Finland, if you have a look how much money Italy attracts from its members and how much money Finland attracts from its members (in case they ask for the same membership fee). Currently we are in the situation that Italy says, we are the biggest federation, so we must be better than other federations, and all others answer them "Yes, but we pay the same like Italy every year, so we have the same voice like Italy".

What is the meaning of this?
Should Italy pay more membership fee than 100 € to FISTF or Finland less than 100 €?

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Thossa on Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:19 pm

This delicate discussion should move to the italian forum Laughing
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:33 pm

Thossa, if we consider that only members can vote at the Congress, you also have to consider that the total numbers I mentioned are including also players from associations or countries without a vote. I don't have the time now to calculate the precentage also without those players who are playing for a country which is not member of FISTF.
You can be sure that the numbers will be higher then according on the percentage of italian players in the rankings.
That could be the basic to say how important a member is for FISTF and that could also be a basic to know how many votes a member has at a congress for an example.

It depends only on the angle of view you use.

Thossa wrote:This delicate discussion should move to the italian forum Laughing

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Guest on Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:52 pm

Tuscany has 100 players and 8 clubs. There is probably no more than 25 in the ranking fistf.

In Tuscany not play any events FISTF and if a regional circuit of 10 tournaments with an average of 30 players.

In Italy there is a circuit OLD Subbuteo (only materials subbuteo) larger than the entire FISTF.

Italy is NOT our reference. Each country has to find a closer relation. For Spain it was before France. Today by number of players and clubs would have to be Belgium.

The problem is that today there is no difference between being non-members. (United States is not a member and organize more FISTF tournaments to Italy ..)

Nobody wants to give small countries.

It seeks to establish the decision maker.

There are several criteria in the world, one vote per country (FIFA, IOC), by size (European Union) for financial contribution (IMF), with right of veto (UN).

What bothers the American member of the IMF is that Iceland's membership to explain how to spend the money .......

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Thossa on Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:07 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Thossa, if we consider that only members can vote at the Congress, you also have to consider that the total numbers I mentioned are including also players from associations or countries without a vote. I don't have the time now to calculate the precentage also without those players who are playing for a country which is not member of FISTF.
You can be sure that the numbers will be higher then according on the percentage of italian players in the rankings.
That could be the basic to say how important a member is for FISTF and that could also be a basic to know how many votes a member has at a congress for an example.

It depends only on the angle of view you use.

Thossa wrote:This delicate discussion should move to the italian forum Laughing

It looks fairer to raise the price 0,50 € each player at a FISTF-tournament (without raising the entry fee limits of course). That would bring in more money to FISTF from the large group of italian players, without a disadvantage.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Admin on Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:02 pm

There are only 20% of italian members interested in FISTF events.
That's exactly one of the problems known for many years. There are more belgian players in the world rankings than the number of paying members int he belgian association (because Belgians like FISTF events very much).

In Italy, people prefer the regional or national tournament. Maybe it's one good reason why Italy should not be so important in taking decisions for the future of FISTF.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Admin on Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:06 pm

It looks fairer to raise the price 0,50 € each player at a FISTF-tournament (without raising the entry fee limits of course). That would bring in more money to FISTF from the large group of italian players, without a disadvantage.
With the current FISTF policy, it simply means to me more money for travelling to meetings... Razz Razz Razz
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  zinga on Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:20 pm

The member nations issue will be discussed in the CoN. However, a small comment. If the criteria is to have two teams in world cup, what years world cup should count? If Italy will send only one team some year, are they degraded as a partner nation? Or if the world cup system is changed to include preliminary rounds (like FIFA does) and Italy cannot get teams to the world cup, are they again degraded as a partner nation? I would like to see what member nations FISTF would have after the world cup is organized in South Africa or in Brazil.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  kechris on Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:35 am

The democracy loves the simple and clear ideas. Every country must having the same power as member in organisation. One vote in elections, the same fee every year, the same number of participations in every category of World cup, the same number of teams in Europa cups, the same number of international tournaments.
Maybe the strong countries will have problem with this system but if we want really promotion to weak countries we must follow without comments this logic.
I think that the big problem for FISTF was the associations outside of Europe. It is very difficult to solve problems with countries which are very far away by the center of table soccer, the Europe.
If we really want a promotion in argentina in usa in australia in india in africa we can plan a system with bonus ( free hotel for three nights) for evey person who decide to travel by so far away to play in W.C. If we ask 5-10e fee in W.C by every association for every player and 10-20 by every national team then we can pay hotel for 20 players at least. It is a simple and easy idea.
This idea is good and for team-club events. If last year in Tournai all the teams paid 20e we will had 640e so we can pay the hotel for two clubs by outside of europe. If we want really the promotion in new countries of table soccer. This solution is better than to organise W.C in america in australia in africa in asia.
My slogan: the solutions are simple the decisions are difficult.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  von K. on Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:38 am

pierocapponi wrote:
In Italy there is a circuit OLD Subbuteo (only materials subbuteo) larger than the entire FISTF.

This tells that the success story of "the man who likes to blow his own trumpet" is not quite what it's made up to be. How can the amateurs still have more players?

Or is it the FISTF rules (too far from football) that make people choose others? Many people do that also in Britain. This should be viewed seriously. I would make a simple survey on this, a bit like mr. Adolph did when starting with the whole thing.

pierocapponi wrote:There are several criteria in the world, one vote per country (FIFA, IOC), by size (European Union) for financial contribution (IMF), with right of veto (UN).

What bothers the American member of the IMF is that Iceland's membership to explain how to spend the money .......

We can see that the Sports organizations have a system of one vote per country. Why should we take example from a political or capitalistic institutions?

When some country starts to pour money into the FISTF by the bucketloads, I'm ready to give them a couple of votes more (no, not really). The right for veto has long since made UN look as useful as a broom in difficult subjects. In other words, it has destroyed it's meaning. EU system by size is also favouring countries with lots of people and no money. Small well run countries like Norway don't even think of joining because they have no power and only pay the bills. The one vote per member has it's problems also, but it fits the sporting, and especially olympic, ideal best.

Or how about the system of current FISTF? I'm not sure if the votes are 1, 2, 3 or 4, but decisions seem to be easy. What I do know is that the Board that was elected in January had members from Malta, Greece, Spain, Italy, England and France. And what a bang up job the big countries did! It would probably get even better, if other countries couldn't even call for an EGM in 9 country FISTF.

These comments were not directed to Piero despite the Quote above.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  von K. on Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:56 am

I think we all (the italians, too) should wonder what we would think if China start playing seriously. they will easily get ten thousand players for any game, and they could be very good in this one, too. So, when in the year 2015 China has 30 thousand players which is more than the rest of the world, should they have absolute ruling power? Italy would be the Finland of that world, and the rest wouldn't even exist. It would also be fun to realize that Monaco wouldn't even get to the same numbers if every single person of the country played the game. Poor devils, they should just move to a bigger country, if they want to influence their hobby. But hey, also we others would have to move to China (easy because the countries are already there...). I just love the scenario of some persons packing their figures...

It's very healthy to look at things from the other side...

And now without sarcasm or other nonsense:

To the question posed in the topic, I would say that an international top organization should have as many members as possible. Some recquirements can be written, but exclusion is not the way for a federation like this. Many people should again read the thoughts of Steve Dettre (posted here by admin a while ago).

I also think that this game is so small that we don't understand how far from homogenic its players are. In bigger sports and games there is much more variety of events for different levels. This is the way to do things.

The top players 8if they want to) deserve also exclusive tournaments (not professional, just normal), that don't have novices. Only tough games. And the small countries and players have to be asked what gets them to travel or participate more.

If we have a federation with only the big nations, no one will be interested of these questions officially. Having small members doesn't mean they, as a majority, don't have to listen to bigger nations wishes. But then again, I know at least one country where the players are far from homogenic (as everywhere), but the persons with power are not interested to ask for players wishes.

An open mind has space for every possible thought as a solution. And the best solutions sound probably strange at first (like throughout history, in every area of life). But there are too many closed minds in the FISTF.

Heinz Eder wrote:I never can understand that associations say, we can't send young people to a World Cup because of costs.

Are you sure this is the reason for many?

Also, if it is, why should the young players go to a WC to play a team event with groups of three and then step aside from the tournament? There must be parents or other adults also travelling with them, and that costs money, too.

If families have money, it's easy. If not, even a thousand divided byt at least 4 players and their guardians is 125 each, which leaves about 500 per person to pay. Many people with kids and loans don't have that kind of money.

Also the game for many kids is more important as a means of having fun. Nothing too serious although competitive. What I saw in this years World Cup as a referee for the U-15 category was disgusting, with too much tension, and fair play out the window already. Who wants to let his kids see that in a World Cup? I don't, and I bloody well won't pay 500 to make my kid see that in a game he enjoys and plays fairly (hypothetical about my kids in this context).

Heinz Eder wrote:Currently I don't see any negative aspect that an organizer or an association can say they don't want some players to play international events in or outside their country.

I don't understand. Do you mean that organizers or associations should have the power to choose who can play even abroad. That's quite absurd, if there is no disciplinary reason.

Heinz Eder wrote:As it seems some people want to get money double that players are allowed to play FISTF events. One time they ask for starting fees and on the other side every player has to pay membership fee of the association.

If you mean the "FISTF license", then i don't know who said it should cost anything. It's only a precautionary solution to let people play in case of problems.

Heinz Eder wrote:If we consider that about 50 players play FISTF tournaments outside of Italy and the rest plays only FISTF events in Italy, numbers are looking different again!?

This is an important point when we think of FISTF. In Finland we have something like 50% participation for FISTF events (1 in a year) in our country. Also we have about 10% participation for foreign FISTF events yearly. If we culd drive or take a train to foreign competitions not more than 300-400 kilometres away, the percentage would be clearly higher. We (you) are behind the sea, remember.

I admire the system of competitions in Italy, but it has more to do with their own association than FISTF. I also don't believe that if a person is a director in such a big association, he has the time and the energy for the same work internationally.

Also I find it ridiculous (by you know who) to blame the portuguese for not having a team in CL, when the best portuguese players play for italian teams. Why should the average portuguese players travel to CL to get beaten up badly.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  kechris on Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:47 am

von K. wrote:
and fair play out the window already. .

I LOVE IT.
I ALSO LOVE READING YOUR POSTS VON K.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Admin on Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:35 pm

We all love Von K.'s posts Very Happy
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:39 am

I can't understand the reason of organizers or associations to refuse players from international competitions, because they damage their own competition, that's what I wanted to say.
Good example with China and Monace that's the reason why we should have different views on numbers, total numbers aren't always the whole truth.
As long as FISTF is a legal association we need legal representatives of legal associations for the voting. Of course it is possible to say we don't ask for 100 EUR every year and every legal association can vote at the Congress. I don't know if that's the right way?


von K. wrote:I think we all (the italians, too) should wonder what we would think if China start playing seriously. they will easily get ten thousand players for any game, and they could be very good in this one, too. So, when in the year 2015 China has 30 thousand players which is more than the rest of the world, should they have absolute ruling power? Italy would be the Finland of that world, and the rest wouldn't even exist. It would also be fun to realize that Monaco wouldn't even get to the same numbers if every single person of the country played the game. Poor devils, they should just move to a bigger country, if they want to influence their hobby. But hey, also we others would have to move to China (easy because the countries are already there...). I just love the scenario of some persons packing their figures...

It's very healthy to look at things from the other side...

And now without sarcasm or other nonsense:

To the question posed in the topic, I would say that an international top organization should have as many members as possible. Some recquirements can be written, but exclusion is not the way for a federation like this. Many people should again read the thoughts of Steve Dettre (posted here by admin a while ago).

I also think that this game is so small that we don't understand how far from homogenic its players are. In bigger sports and games there is much more variety of events for different levels. This is the way to do things.

The top players 8if they want to) deserve also exclusive tournaments (not professional, just normal), that don't have novices. Only tough games. And the small countries and players have to be asked what gets them to travel or participate more.

If we have a federation with only the big nations, no one will be interested of these questions officially. Having small members doesn't mean they, as a majority, don't have to listen to bigger nations wishes. But then again, I know at least one country where the players are far from homogenic (as everywhere), but the persons with power are not interested to ask for players wishes.

An open mind has space for every possible thought as a solution. And the best solutions sound probably strange at first (like throughout history, in every area of life). But there are too many closed minds in the FISTF.

Heinz Eder wrote:I never can understand that associations say, we can't send young people to a World Cup because of costs.

Are you sure this is the reason for many?

Also, if it is, why should the young players go to a WC to play a team event with groups of three and then step aside from the tournament? There must be parents or other adults also travelling with them, and that costs money, too.

If families have money, it's easy. If not, even a thousand divided byt at least 4 players and their guardians is 125 each, which leaves about 500 per person to pay. Many people with kids and loans don't have that kind of money.

Also the game for many kids is more important as a means of having fun. Nothing too serious although competitive. What I saw in this years World Cup as a referee for the U-15 category was disgusting, with too much tension, and fair play out the window already. Who wants to let his kids see that in a World Cup? I don't, and I bloody well won't pay 500 to make my kid see that in a game he enjoys and plays fairly (hypothetical about my kids in this context).

Heinz Eder wrote:Currently I don't see any negative aspect that an organizer or an association can say they don't want some players to play international events in or outside their country.

I don't understand. Do you mean that organizers or associations should have the power to choose who can play even abroad. That's quite absurd, if there is no disciplinary reason.

Heinz Eder wrote:As it seems some people want to get money double that players are allowed to play FISTF events. One time they ask for starting fees and on the other side every player has to pay membership fee of the association.

If you mean the "FISTF license", then i don't know who said it should cost anything. It's only a precautionary solution to let people play in case of problems.

Heinz Eder wrote:If we consider that about 50 players play FISTF tournaments outside of Italy and the rest plays only FISTF events in Italy, numbers are looking different again!?

This is an important point when we think of FISTF. In Finland we have something like 50% participation for FISTF events (1 in a year) in our country. Also we have about 10% participation for foreign FISTF events yearly. If we culd drive or take a train to foreign competitions not more than 300-400 kilometres away, the percentage would be clearly higher. We (you) are behind the sea, remember.

I admire the system of competitions in Italy, but it has more to do with their own association than FISTF. I also don't believe that if a person is a director in such a big association, he has the time and the energy for the same work internationally.

Also I find it ridiculous (by you know who) to blame the portuguese for not having a team in CL, when the best portuguese players play for italian teams. Why should the average portuguese players travel to CL to get beaten up badly.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:06 am

If you would do that, you are directly in the discussion about membership again.
Why should an association pay to FISTF for players, the association don't see any membership fee from!?


Thossa wrote:
Heinz Eder wrote:Thossa, if we consider that only members can vote at the Congress, you also have to consider that the total numbers I mentioned are including also players from associations or countries without a vote. I don't have the time now to calculate the precentage also without those players who are playing for a country which is not member of FISTF.
You can be sure that the numbers will be higher then according on the percentage of italian players in the rankings.
That could be the basic to say how important a member is for FISTF and that could also be a basic to know how many votes a member has at a congress for an example.

It depends only on the angle of view you use.

Thossa wrote:This delicate discussion should move to the italian forum Laughing

It looks fairer to raise the price 0,50 € each player at a FISTF-tournament (without raising the entry fee limits of course). That would bring in more money to FISTF from the large group of italian players, without a disadvantage.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  kechris on Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:47 pm

We must explain that there are two kinds of associations. For members and clubs. In Greece the law ask different BoD for every association.
I wrote last year. The correct way is
world federation- national federation- club -player.
When the sport become proffessional then the players can organise their association.
If we want to continue this time system with federation of members then we can create an other association for clubs.
Another "road" for individuals another for team events.
It is simple but need new organisation from point zero.
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Re: A question about the number of associations

Post  Heinz Eder on Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:22 pm

I don't understand the difference between an association based on players or an association based on clubs. the only difference is who votes for the board. in one case the players in the other case the clubs.
An association in Austria is nothing more than a club. Even the soccer association is "only" club, They are a very big club, but for the law they are nothing different. They are only recognized as sport so they have access to the money the austrian sports agency gets from the gouvernment.

Heinz

kechris wrote:We must explain that there are two kinds of associations. For members and clubs. In Greece the law ask different BoD for every association.
I wrote last year. The correct way is
world federation- national federation- club -player.
When the sport become proffessional then the players can organise their association.
If we want to continue this time system with federation of members then we can create an other association for clubs.
Another "road" for individuals another for team events.
It is simple but need new organisation from point zero.

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Re: A question about the number of associations

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