Goalkeeper change

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:55 pm

pierocapponi wrote:
First, to break a piece of lego ..... need an effort, probably with the same effort to break an iron.

Give me a pice of lego which is approx 20 cm long and has a diamenter of 4 mm - that's what we are talking about. I'm 100% sure I will break it VERY easy.
Hard to find this pice in lego stock?
Probably that's because it would break too easy ... Very Happy
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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  drastis on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:03 pm

What an impressive improvement of Piero's English in just a few minutes!!!

Regarding the issue itself, the only way to control the size of equipment is to provide tools for measuring them. Do you think that cheating players will not find a way to "touch" your new "perfect"
goalkeepers? Do you think they will be embarassed when some referee will tell them "I think this is not the real unique FISTF keeper you are using, but I cannot prove it"?? And by the way, I like painting my players, why should I be obliged to play with an ugly unpainted keeper?? And what about goals? Producers make goals slightly smaller or bigger than they should be. Will you "enforce" the use of one goal in the future? What about balls, pitches, figures, bases?? Why not abolishing all different types of them next??

I don't worry about such "strange" decisions. I am sure common sense will prevail at last. My only worry is that I am already 43 and I am afraid that it will take a lot of time until common sense finally bacomes accepted.

pierocapponi wrote:Hello,

Personally I think Subbuteo, Zeug, Soccer 3D are essentially toys.

We speak of material "professional" and I think it's just that there was some discrepancy in the materials. Economically it is impossible to insert a product of a certain quality in boxes that costs 10/15 euros.

We must not allow this "freedom" of production because it's just the freedom of production (and lack of control) which has led to the monsters.

Every weekend we have 2 / 3 tournaments in the world and it is physically impossible for the National and International Federations to control everything. The control of what you should do the referees / players and we want to make your job easier. Only one porter same for everyone.

Take this opportunity to tell you that you can not paint (some people paint it to make it 1,000 times more fat, or immerse you in the queue, or they put a meter of tape around the handle, etc. .. etc. ..)

The initial idea was to give a goalie for each player listed on the national federation. I wonder, as a curiosity, why players do not play tournaments FISTF Finns.

Some wanted to change him in September 2010. We preferred to add a time of distribution and adaptation of four months more. We believe that is enough.

I also remember, on the risk of breaking the doorkeepers to stop such "sweep" is not allowed in our regulations.

A hug.

Piero

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:20 pm

my English is still very bad. What is great is the translator of Google ..

The control will be very easy. A single gatekeeper for the entire world.

In all the major tournaments there will be people of FISTF controlling.

The same players will make the investigation.

Lueo we have to solve the height of the goals and fields. (Single height)

On bases and pitch think that diversity is fundamental.

Marcus, play with lego and playmobil every day (I have two children, 8 and 10 years) and there playmobil pieces 20 inches or more, as the pirate ship albero not break or Hulk.

We have to stop with the goalkeeper no ..... crashing into a wall or throw in the middle of a room.

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Kaitsu on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:30 pm

Personally i would imagine that plastic keeper would be easier to modify than metal one, but can't see is there possibility to create metal keeper that can not be changed. I'm not professional on these things..

Other thing that little got into my eye was the mention (in other topic i think) that the players are 40+ guys who want to win, no matter what. I don't know nor can't say anything bout foriegn players but in Finland our game is based on having fun and fair play. Oh, we do have one cranky old guy, but he ain't playing the main leagues, just his own as no1 likes the way he acts. In fact, George Papadopoulos who's visiting Finland was playing with us last weekend in our national ranking tournament and commented that we play too fair (compared to others i think).

By this jibjab i was thinking should there be more work to change players attitudes than equipment as i think that every goalkeeprs can be modified, just some easier than others? Altho it would require lots of more work or bigger punishments from unprofessional behaviour (in it's all forms).
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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Marcus Tilgner on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:32 pm

Hi Piero,

you haven't got the point.
It needs to be 20 cm length AND 4 mm diameter.

Then everybody would break it quite easily. And there is absolutely no need to throw them onto the wall or something like that.
The rod of the old style Subbuteo keeper is a good example although this is even shorter. Easy to break in the metal goals AND easy to be bent by a shot... Simply unusable, but hard to be improved with plastics...!
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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  drastis on Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:43 pm

You are not answering my question actually.

How will you prove to anybody that the goalkeeper he uses is NOT the original?? Companies like Rolex and Prada have not found any way to protect their brands from fake products, how will you??

And how will you ensure that every player will get his free goalkeeper?? You first have to define WHO IS A PLAYER, you then have to create a list of players and update this list frequently with players that already have been given a free keeper (to ensure that no one gets more than one), you have to balance how many keepers are given to each country, you have to post at least a few keepers to all countries that have players who do not participate in European tournaments (like USA, Argentina and Australia for instance) etc. WHO is going to manage all this logistics??

A FEASIBLE and CHEAP solution is what you need, not an unprofessional approach like "give free keepers to the world"...

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:16 pm

What about players not in Europe? For example... the USA.

We play FISTF tournaments. Will we be sent the new goalkeepers for free too?

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:20 pm

Sorry but I think the fake is not our problem.

Only the goalkeeper to make the mold is false because spending is too high for a very small business (a mold minimum costs EUR 4000/5000).

The distribution is a fairly simple problem. Will be through the associations and the number of players is very low (we have 17 federations, some composed of 10 players).

In larger countries will work with the clubs and the organizers of the tournament.

Simon I would remind that the U.S. is a member of their own choice; FISTF. A situation that we have to fix it.

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:27 pm

pierocapponi wrote:Simon I would remind that the U.S. is a member of their own choice; FISTF. A situation that we have to fix it.

The above is a good example of where a translation tool fails as I am not sure I understand the reply. confused

Are you saying as the US is a "partner nation" rather than a "member nation" FISTF rules do not apply?

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:43 pm

The translator has worked perfectly.

United States at this time, and by his own choice; is not a member state of the FISTF.

We are working with Zach Walker and others to solve this.

The "accusation" that makes the United States is too FISTF Europeanism.

But again, we are looking for solutions.

Anyway here we are talking about the goalkeeper no?

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:54 pm

Thank you for the answer. And yes we are talking about goalkeepers. I was just surprised what you said in the post I quoted you on.

Thanks

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:32 pm

Heinz has an interesting proposal. The FISTF at the next world cup could give the same plastic goalkeeper to everyone. It could be a start.

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Admin on Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:19 pm

Kaitsu wrote:Personally i would imagine that plastic keeper would be easier to modify than metal one, but can't see is there possibility to create metal keeper that can not be changed. I'm not professional on these things..

Other thing that little got into my eye was the mention (in other topic i think) that the players are 40+ guys who want to win, no matter what. I don't know nor can't say anything bout foriegn players but in Finland our game is based on having fun and fair play. Oh, we do have one cranky old guy, but he ain't playing the main leagues, just his own as no1 likes the way he acts. In fact, George Papadopoulos who's visiting Finland was playing with us last weekend in our national ranking tournament and commented that we play too fair (compared to others i think).

By this jibjab i was thinking should there be more work to change players attitudes than equipment as i think that every goalkeeprs can be modified, just some easier than others? Altho it would require lots of more work or bigger punishments from unprofessional behaviour (in it's all forms).
That's one of the problems of table football. You become a "winner" when you are just reaching the limit between "cheating" and "interpreting the rules". Almost all top players are forcing free kicks because the referees don't have the gutts to sanction some illegal moves and the same players win games thanks to "tricks". In my club also, we play "too air" and when one of our players in forcing a free kick, he's almost blames by his opponent. But it never happens in official matches against people from other clubs... Sad
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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:32 am

In my opinion it is not necessary to give to every new player a goalkeeper for free in the future, because the sense of that action is to give keepers to all those players who are active on the tour now and already bought keepers. So if there will be players in a new country in february 2011, I don't think they need to get new keepers for free, but the board must ensure that distributors don't sell them metal keepers, that's the problem, if they order metal keepers and then they start a club or even an association, the FISTF Board has to clearify that they have to use the new keeper, how that will be checked in countries in Asia or Africa is a very interesting point I think.
Even if the board would send them keepers and they think the quality is bad, you can't be sure that those keepers are used there.
There are different possibilities to find all players who should get a free keeper. If the FISTF Board trusts the associations, they only need to ask for a player's list and then send the number of keepers to the associations.
If the FISTF Board don't trust the associations, it is very easy to find out all players who take part in a FISTF event in the last season and then send that number of keepers and a list with the names of players to the association.

Heinz

drastis wrote:You are not answering my question actually.

How will you prove to anybody that the goalkeeper he uses is NOT the original?? Companies like Rolex and Prada have not found any way to protect their brands from fake products, how will you??

And how will you ensure that every player will get his free goalkeeper?? You first have to define WHO IS A PLAYER, you then have to create a list of players and update this list frequently with players that already have been given a free keeper (to ensure that no one gets more than one), you have to balance how many keepers are given to each country, you have to post at least a few keepers to all countries that have players who do not participate in European tournaments (like USA, Argentina and Australia for instance) etc. WHO is going to manage all this logistics??

A FEASIBLE and CHEAP solution is what you need, not an unprofessional approach like "give free keepers to the world"...

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:35 am

I didn't mean to give it to the players there, it should only be there and after the WC FISTF takes the keepers again. So you can assure that all players use the same keepers at least at the World Cup. Of course the board also can give keepers to the players there, but it isn't compulsory to use the keeper then.
If the keeper is the only keeper allowed at the World Cup the difference would be that the players must use that keeper.

Heinz

De Francesco wrote:Heinz has an interesting proposal. The FISTF at the next world cup could give the same plastic goalkeeper to everyone. It could be a start.

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  drastis on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:26 am

I don't think this proposal is wise. Players need time to adapt to new equipment, to the weight, to the feeling of it. It will be a complete disaster for many players if they are obliged to use a keeper they never used before.

Again, a really "amateur" solution to a problem that is totally different...

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:38 am

as long as it is the same situation for all players I don't see a problem.
it is the same situation when the organizer of a World Cup uses totally new pitches and the players don't know the attributes of those pitches, like it was in France at the World Cup.

Heinz

drastis wrote:I don't think this proposal is wise. Players need time to adapt to new equipment, to the weight, to the feeling of it. It will be a complete disaster for many players if they are obliged to use a keeper they never used before.

Again, a really "amateur" solution to a problem that is totally different...

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A single new goalkeeper

Post  EFM on Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:44 pm

A new single goalkeeper. That's ok.
And next ?
New single goals ?
New single pitches ?
New single balls ?
New single bases ?

The problem is not the goalkeeper being the same to everybody.
The problem is an unique supplier for that goalkeeper.
Just make everyone fullfill FISTF regulations and the problem is solved.
Forbid irregular goalkeepers or give up of very strange decisions.

Luis Filipe Horta


Last edited by EFM on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:51 pm

That was the situation up to now but the problem was never solved. Therefore a change is as welcome as needed.
I also believe that either all the equipment should be checked (which is almost impossible now) or should be standardized. Same bases and figures for all players, same keepers, same dimensions of goals. The base/figure combination should be shuch that cannot be tempered with. I.e. the base should be single piece.

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  player on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:22 pm

i m very critical to the PLASTIC! I think it's a bad choice!

BUT!!!!

Let's give the board a chance. Two weeks was promissed (promissed with capital letters) that from the 1st of september 2010 this goalkeeper would be obligated to use in fistf tournaments. Now already this period to start is extended to 1st of january 2011.

I am seceptical about this project, but i think everybody has to give them a chance to show their work. So we can only judge when the keepers are in use of the system!

PS; fistf covers with the fact that they asked the opinion from players and mostly players choose for plastic goalkeepers. WEIRD; cause i questioned 100 players (top-middle-average players) and 97 choose for metal, 2 didnt know and 1 choose for platic.... You make the counts!

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:30 pm

Luis, what is the problem to have one ball for an example if the quality is ok. I think it is better than today where most of the balls are bad quality but people earn money by selling them, because they are the only people who sell balls.
I would prefer it to have very good balls sold by only one and I also would be ready to pay 1 or 2 EUR more for a high quality product. If more producers are able to produce high quality products it would be better of course because then the price would become lower, but if all sell balls of the same "bad" quality, nobody has a benefit.
The bases are different, as I wrote in a former posting here, we should be more open for development of the bases, one single form of base is not sport, because everybody has a different kind of play, with 1 kind of base, the range of different playing is over and the game/sport becomes boring. There should be more possibilities to test different bases and figures.

Heinz

EFM wrote:A new single goalkeeper. That's ok.
And next ?
New single goals ?
New single pitches ?
New single balls ?
New single bases ?

The problem is not the goalkeeper being the same to everybody.
The problem is an unique supplier for that goalkepper.
Just make everyone fullfill FISTF regulations and the problem is solved.
Forbid irregular goalkeepers or give up of very strange decisions.

Luis Filipe Horta

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:39 pm

ok, then make 3-4-5 kinds of bases depending on dimensions and weight and thats it. Since FISTF has proven unable to control the cheating, it should find a way to standardize the equipment. Otherwise, believe me , you will loose more newcomers. Only the cheaters will decide to stay to the game.

Kinder want a chance to win, if you do not give them the chance of winning they tend to quit easily. This is why you see so many 40+ year-olds playing the game. Most ogf the children are their sons/daughters. Do you disagree?

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:50 pm

If other sports would do the same, they would still play with the Adidas Questra ball for an example. Why is it a bad thing to improve bases and test several things? If there is more choice for the players, more players can find the perfect bases and figures for their game.
Why should we limit the range of products only to 3 or 4 different bases, for me the only important fact is the diameter of the base and the maximum high of the base. The rest should be free for everybody (of course bases need to be homlogated by FISTF).
I don't think that players stop playing because of many different bases. I think if they have a bigger sortiment of bases to choose the right one, players can improve their game better, than having only 3 or 4 kinds and noone of them is really perfect. It should also be possible that players design their own figures if they have the possibilities to do that, then they can send for homlogation and that's it.

Heinz

LLcoolJ wrote:ok, then make 3-4-5 kinds of bases depending on dimensions and weight and thats it. Since FISTF has proven unable to control the cheating, it should find a way to standardize the equipment. Otherwise, believe me , you will loose more newcomers. Only the cheaters will decide to stay to the game.

Kinder want a chance to win, if you do not give them the chance of winning they tend to quit easily. This is why you see so many 40+ year-olds playing the game. Most ogf the children are their sons/daughters. Do you disagree?

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:55 pm

no problem with what you say. can you control the height and weight though. The answer is no. Therefore, you must standardize. It is the same with the keeper.

If I fill a couple of my bases with mercury, then you can understand that I am exceeding the weight by a ton. If you have no means to control something, standardize it. If you can measure it, fine by me.


PS: I never cheated in my life, I try to play fair, but I have been put off by cheating and bad behaviour. Things MUST change, and they must change fast.

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Re: Goalkeeper change

Post  drastis on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:00 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:If other sports would do the same, they would still play with the Adidas Questra ball for an example. Why is it a bad thing to improve bases and test several things? If there is more choice for the players, more players can find the perfect bases and figures for their game.
Why should we limit the range of products only to 3 or 4 different bases, for me the only important fact is the diameter of the base and the maximum high of the base. The rest should be free for everybody (of course bases need to be homlogated by FISTF).
I don't think that players stop playing because of many different bases. I think if they have a bigger sortiment of bases to choose the right one, players can improve their game better, than having only 3 or 4 kinds and noone of them is really perfect. It should also be possible that players design their own figures if they have the possibilities to do that, then they can send for homlogation and that's it.

Heinz


I totally agree with you Heinz. But, isn't it right that the same logic should apply for all equipment?The only important fact is the maximum height and width of the goalkeeper and surely the diameter of the handle. The rest should be free, provided there is homologation, exactly as you say.

FISTF should provide a tool for measuring various kinds of equipent: goalkeepers, bases, figures etc. Goals and balls may not be actually a problem, (because they are used by both the players in a match, so there is no motivation for a potential cheat), but you could have tools for them as well.

Search the market FISTF people, there are companies who specialize in producing such measuring tools. GaleForce9 is one of them, they produce laser-cut tools for wargamers (Warhammer, Flames of War etc).

By using such tools, players will be able to check the equipment they are offered and referees will be able to attest "modifications" aiming to enlarge or reduce the size of legal material, a very common practice among the players. And you will not have to resort to the solution of "single" goalkeeper, bases, balls etc.

IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND???

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