FISTF Council of Nations

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  de francesco on Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:59 am

Elections may be obtained through an Extraordinary Congress. Who wants the elections must have the signatures of nations.

Gather them and ask for the extraordinary congress.


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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  de francesco on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:24 am

Dear Vincent, Italy were present at the meeting of the Rain with President Corso and myself. Italy's position was clear. We felt that we wanted to work with all nations together.

We asked to cancel your suspension.
The list Catania would rewin the elections.
The elections would not solve the rifts between various factions.
So we've asked not to make the elections.

I will not be a bully but an international activity with Italy, Spain, Malta, Gibraltar, Portugal, England and Greece would work fine.

It takes more respect for these countries, but it seems that the only important thing is the votes of India and Monaco.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  panagios on Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:40 am

I do not know Heinz in person , but he seems to be the only one talking sense in the past 2 months. As an outsider, almost everyone seems to be content now that they managed create this counsil, although it has no legal status whatsoever. And I say this, although I find the idea really nice. I just believe that if there is no legal recognition, when things get rough it will find itself unable to make any decisions.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  von K. on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:04 pm

panagios wrote:I do not know Heinz in person , but he seems to be the only one talking sense in the past 2 months. As an outsider, almost everyone seems to be content now that they managed create this counsil, although it has no legal status whatsoever. And I say this, although I find the idea really nice. I just believe that if there is no legal recognition, when things get rough it will find itself unable to make any decisions.

What would you do? Or what would you have done in the Congress? Bearing in mind that the FISTF was torn in two and there was significant fear of a total break up.

The Council hasn't started it's work. Many people are not content until it does.

As said many times, there are so many illegal (or at least the legality is an open question), that it's hard to understand why the Council (decided in a Congress, and yes, for me it was a Congress) is always mentioned. The idea is to get through a period which is really hurting the game.

For me, the game is not about statutes, courts etc. So I don't understand why the international game should be destroyed because of this nonsense. Concentrate on making the small community (less than 2000 players in the FISTF open ranking) healthy. If the statutes don't allow it, then I have to ask which is more important. The FISTF statutes or the TF community.

And if anyone has better ideas than the Council to make things work, most of us are open to hear them.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:11 pm

Stefano, you got me wrong.
Elections are not the important point for me in that discussion. The decision about that would lay on the table automatically, if the other happenings would be solved and analyzed honestly.
There are only a few questions which need an answer, but nobody seems to be interested anymore.
Actually the members of FISTF seem to be happy to get a council from the board (it looks like that, sorry), and nobody is interested anymore in all the questions, we discussed here before Rain in a, sometimes, "hot" discussion.

Unclear is to me, what was the situation after the elections in january.

Some people said the "new" board is elected till january 2014, some others said the board is elected till the ordinary congress in Rain.
My question is:
Who is right, who is wrong?
I don't want an answer what somebody thinks, I want an answer from somebody who is sure about that and can give facts according on statutes and/or french law.

The board promised elections in Rain and called themselves provisional board in january.
My question is:
Is it right to call it Congress, or is it another Extra Ordinary Congress in Rain?
That question is not important, in both cases it may lead to elections, but it would be interesting to understand the stuff better.
Does the expression "provisional board" exist in the french law? What does it mean? If yes, is there mentioned a special periode such a "provisional" board can continue to work?

The board of FISTF sent out an application form for candidates. Those candidates can only be candidate, if the president of the national association agrees on it.
My question is:
Is that legal according on our statutes or french law?

The board cancelled a congress 2 weeks before the Congress.
My question is:
Is there anything mentioned in french law, that the board can cancel a meeting where elections should take place?
What did the new board send to the french authority after the meeting in january?
If they didn't send the correct papers, members of FISTF normally have to tell that to the french authortiy.

Having all those answers would bring only 2 possibilities:
The board did everything formally right.
OR
The board didn't respect the statutes of FISTF and the french law.

Heinz

de francesco wrote:Elections may be obtained through an Extraordinary Congress. Who wants the elections must have the signatures of nations.

Gather them and ask for the extraordinary congress.


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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  von K. on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:16 pm

de francesco wrote:I will not be a bully but an international activity with Italy, Spain, Malta, Gibraltar, Portugal, England and Greece would work fine.

It takes more respect for these countries, but it seems that the only important thing is the votes of India and Monaco.

Do you want to develop a sport that is played in lots of countries around the world, or do you want to keep things as they are?

In football even the smallest nations are considered important, and FIFA also helps the small countries both with money and projects.

What has been done to keep the USA or Australia (home country of one of the founders of FISTF) active as members of the community? Are those countries important? How about Norway or Denmark? Has anyone from FISTF asked why they are not playing anymore in the FISTF events?

A global sport with a handful of countries from Europe is not very global in the end. The games can of course be played in only those countries mentioned, but is it the point of FISTF? Perhaps Steve Dettre's message from about 15 years ago (posted somewhere here by Admin) should be read once again. At the moment the hungarian button game is much more interesting for people wanting to find a global hobby, meet new people and play tournaments.


Last edited by von K. on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:20 pm

It would be really over with FISTF, if somebody supports the board to refuse elections by knowing that it is against the statutes and/or law.
If there would be anybody proofing with facts (statutes or french law) that the board acted against french law and/or statutes, I hope that nobody would say, we don't want elections.
It was right to agree on the creation of that council, because nobody had those facts.
I don't want to blame anybody, but I think it would be good to know exactly what happened since january. I also don't want to blame somebody, because I know that those things are very difficult and if mistakes happened, I never would say that people did it on purpose.

Heinz

von K. wrote:
panagios wrote:I do not know Heinz in person , but he seems to be the only one talking sense in the past 2 months. As an outsider, almost everyone seems to be content now that they managed create this counsil, although it has no legal status whatsoever. And I say this, although I find the idea really nice. I just believe that if there is no legal recognition, when things get rough it will find itself unable to make any decisions.

What would you do? Or what would you have done in the Congress? Bearing in mind that the FISTF was torn in two and there was significant fear of a total break up.

The Council hasn't started it's work. Many people are not content until it does.

As said many times, there are so many illegal (or at least the legality is an open question), that it's hard to understand why the Council (decided in a Congress, and yes, for me it was a Congress) is always mentioned. The idea is to get through a period which is really hurting the game.

For me, the game is not about statutes, courts etc. So I don't understand why the international game should be destroyed because of this nonsense. Concentrate on making the small community (less than 2000 players in the FISTF open ranking) healthy. If the statutes don't allow it, then I have to ask which is more important. The FISTF statutes or the TF community.

And if anyone has better ideas than the Council to make things work, most of us are open to hear them.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  von K. on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:25 pm

I agree with Heinz, that many questions need answers, and it would help.

But if answers (from the BoD) don't come, do we have to hire a french lawyer to find everything out? And you say you don't want people saying what they think, but what they know. Well, in the BoD there seems to be zero french lawyers, so how would they know either?

If there is going to be needs for lawyers in this small hobby, I have to say I understand perfectly why the Dutch Association is now dead and buried, and that many may follow. This is getting too administrative (not sure if it's the word) for a hobby in the smaller countries. In Finland it's practically 3-4 persons who are willing to keep up the association. Without them our federation would probably not exist.


Last edited by von K. on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:28 pm

Of course you are right with that.
We need to learn from mistakes of the past to make it better in the future, and the periode from january till september is a periode where we can learn a lot for the future.
Of course it maybe doesn't help the community directly, but I think it would be positive to know the facts, because then people would know FISTF much better. Now many things are a miracle for most people, but by solving that periode we can help a lot.
The council's most important point is to find together again. We don't need another instrument of "power" deciding against some associations or the board of FISTF. The couoncil has to be something which brings together all members. We need dialogue and we need projects which have to be realized together in a short time. The representatives have to be open for any idea undependent whos country's representant proposes the idea.
Of course they also will have to accept majorities.

von K. wrote:
de francesco wrote:I will not be a bully but an international activity with Italy, Spain, Malta, Gibraltar, Portugal, England and Greece would work fine.

It takes more respect for these countries, but it seems that the only important thing is the votes of India and Monaco.

Do you want to develop a sport that is played in lots of countries around the world, or do you want to keep things as they are?

In football even the smallest nations are considered important, and FIFA also helps the small countries both with money and projects.

What has been done to keep the USA or Australia (home country of one of the founders of FISTF) active as members of the community? Are those countries important? How about Norway or Denmark? Has anyone from FISTF asked why they are not playing anymore in the FISTF events?

A global sport with a handful of countries from Europe is not very global in the end. The games can of course be played in only those countries mentioned, but is it the point of FISTF? Perhaps Steve Dettre's message from about 15 years ago (posted somewhere here by Admin) should be read once again. At the moment the hungarian button game is much more interesting for people wanting to find a global hobby, meet new people and play tournaments.


Last edited by Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:34 pm

Vesa, the old board of Vincent had a legal advisor too.
You need somebody like that to use the right phrases in the handbook or the statutes. Those things are very important too for an association officially recognized by law.
It is not necessary to have a lawyer in the board, but if you take such decisions you should at least always be sure to act right.
If the board makes the impression to the members that they don't seem to know enough about the topic, it should be the work of the members to check if everything is right.
How they do that, should be up to them, normally the legal man of FISTF should be ready to answer questions of the associations too, so I think there is no need for a private lawyer or even detective to find out what was going on in the last months.

von K. wrote:I agree with Heinz, that many questions need answers, and it would help.

But if answers (from the BoD) don't come, do we have to hire a french lawyer to find everything out? And you say you don't want people saying what they think, but what they know. Well, in the BoD there seems to be zero french lawyers, so how would they know either.

If there is going to be needs for lawyers in this small hobby, I have to say I understand perfectly why the Dutch Association is now dead and buried. This, if anything, is ridiculous.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Admin on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:35 pm

The consequences of the "international war" are a reality:
- table footbally is dying in the Netherlands, Noway, denmark (it was the role of FISTF to support Denmark when the wanted to host the Wc but because of a few selfish people, all the contrary happened);
- table football in America is much more different to FISTF standards because Americans don't care about (the new) FISTF.
- same for Australia. They are "refused" as member because they are "too small". What a joke.

At the end, we all know Italy is playing a bad game because if there were elections in Rain, Catania would lose for sure. People don't trust a man who has based his candidature on "promises". Also, Stefano, stop saying you asked to cancel my suspension. Yes, you said it but when Laurent Coucke proposed me to become sports director, you stood up and said "it's impossible because you're suspended". So what is your problem?

I'm tired of lies, I'm tired of fake promises. I'm tired to hear that Catania became president because "Coppenolle wanted elections in Frankfurt". What a joke!

At the end, I use the word "mafia" and I'm the bad person... That's such a funny way to inverse roles.

You're speaking about several countries but are you sure all players of these countries would support Catania if there was a split in international table football? I guess the answer is no!

The last thing I have to say is "Von K. for president!!!"
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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:48 pm

Sorry, was very busy the last days ....

I don't care if the Council is part of the statutes or not. It was the will of the associations in Rain to form a Council. Maybe we have to add it to the statutes but it is not mandatory at this stage. The board and the associations decided to leave the old way and go for a future solution. That is the only important fact in order to go forward.

I am extremely excited on how the work will be in the Council. And I am extremely excited if the board will keep its word. This is the next important fact. Coming from January's EGM the board promised a lot:
- New goalkeeper
- Elections in September
- More professional
- and ... and ... and ...
The board didn't keep its promises. That's for sure. The council is the right way to bring forward our beloved hobby/sport by controlling and steering the board. Within the council we have to clarify all open questions that came up in the last weeks or months. We have to address these questions to the board. The board is obliged to answer them.

If the Council doesn't come to fly, FISTF will split apart. Because we can't afford to loose another year or so without having the daily business proper managed. If the daily business is not working we are running into a desaster.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:17 pm


Ok. Let's rewind a little bit.
I read here that there are someone who defends that the FISTF BoD was elected till January 2014. I never read the minutes of the January's meeting. Is there something to let us know what was been decided about the current Board ?
I think it's better someone publish the minutes of that meeting for all of us can know, understand and even interpret what was really decided in January.
I want to be sure about it.
After that we can return to the present and understand the real situation.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:22 pm

In my opinion you hit the point exactly Vesa.
Some people think that difficult administration shows how professional an organization is, the others think different. We need to find the middle.

Heinz

von K. wrote:I agree with Heinz, that many questions need answers, and it would help.

But if answers (from the BoD) don't come, do we have to hire a french lawyer to find everything out? And you say you don't want people saying what they think, but what they know. Well, in the BoD there seems to be zero french lawyers, so how would they know either?

If there is going to be needs for lawyers in this small hobby, I have to say I understand perfectly why the Dutch Association is now dead and buried, and that many may follow. This is getting too administrative (not sure if it's the word) for a hobby in the smaller countries. In Finland it's practically 3-4 persons who are willing to keep up the association. Without them our federation would probably not exist.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:32 pm

Here is the text from the meeting minutes.

The newly elected board of directors, declared that due to the circumstances to which the election was called, this Board will be provisional taking care of FISTF till next September when a Congress will
be held with new elections.

Heinz


Luis Filipe Horta wrote:
Ok. Let's rewind a little bit.
I read here that there are someone who defends that the FISTF BoD was elected till January 2014. I never read the minutes of the January's meeting. Is there something to let us know what was been decided about the current Board ?
I think it's better someone publish the minutes of that meeting for all of us can know, understand and even interpret what was really decided in January.
I want to be sure about it.
After that we can return to the present and understand the real situation.

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  de francesco on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:09 pm

For the statute of FISTF 7 nations are enough to call for an Extraordinary Congress.

Who wants the elections can collect signatures.

I don't think that this is the solution but .......


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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Janus_Gersie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:20 pm

de francesco wrote:For the statute of FISTF 7 nations are enough to call for an Extraordinary Congress.

Who wants the elections can collect signatures.

I don't think that this is the solution but .......

Maybe even less associations are needed because we lost some MEMBER associations along the way ...

And I totally agree with you that we don't need an EGM right now. First the Council has to proof its capability.
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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  de francesco on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:21 pm

Coppenolle: At the end, we all know Italy is playing a bad game because if there were elections in Rain, Catania would lose for sure.

these nations were present at the Meeting of Rain:

1) Malta
2) Greece
3) Italy
4) Gibraltar
5) Spain (delegation to Italy)
6) Argentina (delegation to Malta)
7) Belgium
7) Finland
9) Germany
10) England
11) Wales

England and Wales I don't know which candidate they would vote but Malta, Greece, Italy, Gibraltar, Spain and Argentina would vote Catania.

I have no interest to say this but this talk is just to say that elections are not a solution. The solution is to sit at a table as we did me and Thossa and try to solve problems.

P.S. I'm agree with Janus for the same reason!

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  ken on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:40 pm

Is Vincent still suspended? Yes or No?
A lot of people believe there were ulterior motives to the suspension.
That may or may not be true - but it is what people believe.

Vincent has publicly apologised for his 'offending remarks' , De Francesco says he wants the suspension lifted and we read elsewhere about the hand of friendship being offered to Vincent - but I guess actions speak louder than words.

While he is still suspended, I believe that will not help to unite the Table Football community.

Just my opinion.
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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  de francesco on Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:52 pm

I'm agree with you but my job with the board is finish at 31 August

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  ken on Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:33 pm

de francesco wrote:I'm agree with you but my job with the board is finish at 31 August

Well, then it's up to those in power to make the right decision.
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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:53 pm

Every association of course is free to vote whoever they like.
I only would be interested in your motives to vote for Silvio.

Did you see any program for the time after Rain?
Did you see anything official about preferred teams?

I don't think there were good conditions to decide for anybody Exclamation

I was not there, but when I hear and read that the president wanted to cancel the WC, if it wouldn't be allowed to list 6 players on the team sheet (some people think that the reason was only, because Malta had 6 players in the Open Team), I don't have a good feeling. On the other side the categories should be taken from the old season for the World Cup. Where is the continous line in the decisions? Is the World Cup considered as old season's or new season's event. It is not good to mix.

When I see that the board decided only to accept candidates if they have an agreement of the president of the national association, and then we see that candidates from greece are not accepted, because the greek president wants to be candidate, I don't have a good feeling.

When I see that spain and argentina were represented by Italy and Malta at a meeting without any agenda (in the end they couldn't even guess, what would be spoken about at the meeting, but they trust Italy and Malta blind), I don't have a good feeling. It is like a blanco cheque.

When I see that players in Greece are not allowed to play FISTF tournaments, which are not even officially confirmed by FISTF, I don't have a good feeling.

Please give me valid reasons out of the view of Italy and Spain to vote for any candidate in Rain!

I want to clearify that I post my personal opinion here, which is not the view of the austrian federation. I also don't have a personal problem with board members, i only want to give a critical view on the work. The same can be done with the work before january too of course.

Heinz

de francesco wrote:Coppenolle: At the end, we all know Italy is playing a bad game because if there were elections in Rain, Catania would lose for sure.

these nations were present at the Meeting of Rain:

1) Malta
2) Greece
3) Italy
4) Gibraltar
5) Spain (delegation to Italy)
6) Argentina (delegation to Malta)
7) Belgium
7) Finland
9) Germany
10) England
11) Wales

England and Wales I don't know which candidate they would vote but Malta, Greece, Italy, Gibraltar, Spain and Argentina would vote Catania.

I have no interest to say this but this talk is just to say that elections are not a solution. The solution is to sit at a table as we did me and Thossa and try to solve problems.

P.S. I'm agree with Janus for the same reason!

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  Heinz Eder on Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:56 pm

Italy could use the same kind of pressure they used in Rain (if the explanations and stories around the meeting are right here) that the board will take back that decision. Question

Heinz

de francesco wrote:I'm agree with you but my job with the board is finish at 31 August

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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  ken on Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:27 pm

Heinz Eder wrote:Italy could use the same kind of pressure they used in Rain (if the explanations and stories around the meeting are right here) that the board will take back that decision. Question

Heinz

de francesco wrote:I'm agree with you but my job with the board is finish at 31 August

Like I said, actions speak louder than words.
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Re: FISTF Council of Nations

Post  kechris on Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:41 pm

Ι am 42 years old and 30 years subbuteo player the last 17 an international player.

I learned during my life that the only solutions are the simple solutions.
When someone look for special solutions then there are problems.
I love clear situation, no comfuzio.

So in my mind the only solution for international table soccer is:
PLAYERS > CLUBS > NATIONAL ASSOCIATION >INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION

The players s-elect their club representer.
The club representers s-elect the national representers.
The national representers s-elect the international representers.

Who players club and associations can vote? THE ACTIVE IN LAST YEAR.
active table soccer player who took part more than once in tournament.(national or international)
active club which took part more than once in tournament. (nat or intern)
active association which took part in team event of W.C.

All the others solutions are strange for me. I respect mr Gersie and he believe in new council. But when council has different opinion by BoD what will happen?
Who select the representers of council? If associations select the representers then the BoD members who are presidents of their country will select a close friend. It is impossible the council representer to have different opinion of his president. If he has then he will lost his position. Because he is not elected but selected.
Sorry but i believe that we spend time. Now we have problem if players are association member. Without reason.
If a player is member of club then no problem. If club is member of association then the members of this club can play without problem.
The players who are not members of club will pay extra (double) money for take part in tournament.
The clubs pay a yearly fee to association and all players can play in national tournaments.
The associations pay a yearly fee to federation so players and clubs can pay in international tournament.
In all other sports follow this system. And the full professional sports and the hobbies for amateur.

I am not genius. I am a simple player who tired to fight against strange situations and i want to enjoy my hobby with my friends. No more problems without solve.

I had cancer and i fight to win it. The last years i fight because i want to play without asking "the big brother". Every year we have the same problems with strange people who want to save table soccer.
I don't need survivors. I WANTED ONLY TO PLAY WITH THE SAME RULES WITH EVERYONE.
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