do you want the elections

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do you want the elections?

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  von K. on Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:37 pm

Many good points in Piero's letter. I'm not sure (haven't thought about it enough) all things are good there, but this is exactly what the FISTF needs now. Positive and constructive ideas that may even seem drastic.

This is essentially the first one (edit: I forgot Mike Parnaby's comment) after the attempt to wake up discussion about the future of the FISTF in the "Other" section. I wish that even if there are no posts here, people are considering creative solutions that may at first seem like an earthquake. Why should the present system automatically be the best for our game, when quite clearly it has major problems.

I also wish that Piero (or Spain) would be present on friday.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Mike Parnaby on Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:31 pm

This is EXACTLY what I was suggesting on another thread when I mentioned a FISTF 'parliament'. Each nations/federation would have one voice, one vote and be directly involved in the running of FISTF.
To make it work, all federations MUST ACCEPT DEMOCRACY. It will fail if for example a decision is made by the majority but some nations refuse to accept the decision.
Yes, this does not agree with the statutes of FISTF. But clearly, the way FISTF works now is broken. We need to fix it and if that means changing the statutes, and finding a new way of working, then we should seriously consider it.

On Friday, things might get very complicated. Martin Hodds will be there to represent the ESTFA (England) and the ESTFA would support this sort of format for a new look FISTF.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  maxischn on Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:20 pm

funny that everyone is fond of pieros "great" ideas but it's just a summary of what has been written in this topic Very Happy:D

nevertheless we should try something like that, but not in a rush, but give every country the chance to nominate one member (and for greece and extra-spot for non-members) to take part in this "parliament"

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  von K. on Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:08 pm

maxischn wrote:funny that everyone is fond of pieros "great" ideas but it's just a summary of what has been written in this topic Very Happy:D

True, but is it really important who invents the ideas? FISTF stuff hardly is worth copyright. I'm just happy that Piero sees things like this, and as some others I wanted to reply positively.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  player on Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:15 pm

piero,

great idea...!!!

but i think that the people that have to work together in the 'parlament' have to also choose each other. so i think every nation should put forward all persons wanting to be in this fistf 'parlament', then all other nations vote which person from which country should enter the 'parlament'.

As mentioned before, i dont think this should all be deceided at next fridays meeting. dont rush, if the idea is that good, we will need to take time and set up a strong base for the future.

A big greeting from brasil to madrid and to the rest of the world!

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  drastis on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:20 pm

I am wondering if any of you guys supporting Piero's idea have thought if there is any difference between this "great" idea and a proper election. What less is offered by an election? One representative from each country will vote for a Board. Simple and according to statuses.

However, I have a lot of doubt whether a person with such "great" ideas who has already resigned from the Board and who is NOT willing to participate a discussion in such a difficult time, really cares about the game.

My last comment. I do not know who is going to represent Greece in Rain, but I know there is no second association in Greece. There is only PATFAP, which unfortunately is run by a BoD that won an illegal election according to greek courts. So, the best option would be to not let Greece be represented by anyone in Rain.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Thossa on Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:31 pm

drastis wrote:I am wondering if any of you guys supporting Piero's idea have thought if there is any difference between this "great" idea and a proper election. What less is offered by an election? One representative from each country will vote for a Board. Simple and according to statuses.

However, I have a lot of doubt whether a person with such "great" ideas who has already resigned from the Board and who is NOT willing to participate a discussion in such a difficult time, really cares about the game.

My last comment. I do not know who is going to represent Greece in Rain, but I know there is no second association in Greece. There is only PATFAP, which unfortunately is run by a BoD that won an illegal election according to greek courts. So, the best option would be to not let Greece be represented by anyone in Rain.

Well, George, I think I can help you. FISTF´s current communications director of the provisional Bod - BTW: when was the latest issue of the newest newsletter with all that breaking news - will not be in Rain, but Lazaros will represent Greece. That´s what I have heard.

Why not asking the congress about the status of a greek vote Exclamation Suspect
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  kechris on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:20 am

Piero' idea is the summary of this topic. Mark said it first and he has right.
BUT Piero forget to give his proposals for federations. If we believe in democracy for FISTF we must believe in democracy in national Federations.
If federations are not federations and the representers are not representers of all clubs then we have problem. Because wrong persons will vote for fistf's future.

WE must organise from the first step. And the first step is the CLUBS. FISTF every summer ask signatures by presidents of clubs for transfers! Who is president in a club? Club is group of members no a group of players for the law.

Be carefull. We must create a pyramid but you try to begin from the top. No we must begin from the base. If you start working with wrong way then the same problems will meet in front of us very soon again.

Next friday congress must decide to re-create fistf. At first to select-elect a new BoD. And this BoD must promise to all of us that in one year until next W.C. will create the new FISTF.

We don't need great ideas. We need great actions.
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  alex popoff on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:42 am

Elections must be done ! It's on the status, and both sides were Ok for that at the end of the Francfort meeting !
On the other hand, in addition to the 2hrs Congress in Rain, a two days meeting with a maximum of countries present must be held in December, or January, for having more time to develop the ideas and propositions that have been raised those last 6 months !
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  kechris on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:51 am

I know that there are problems about which countries are full member and can vote in elections.
The solution is simple. All the countries which take part in W.C IN TEAM EVENT.
No special rules and decisions.

And the representers of these countries MUST TOOK SIGNATURES BY THE REPRESINTERS OF CLUBS.
For example i read that Lazaros Papakonstantinou will represent Greece. But maybe he is not accepted by maximum 2 clubs. And maybe Chris Aggelinas can take the OK-signature by 8 clubs in Greece.
Who must vote for Greece? Because Papakonstantinou will vote the A candidate for president and Aggelinas will vote the B candidate. Difficult question...

I lost the last two years to explain that we must protect democracy but many of you gave the answer "that is personal problem". I hope now everybody to understand that the personal problems in close time will be international problems.
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:37 am

In my opinion all Associations (defination should be done by FISTF and should also be checked by FISTF) should have a vote at the Congress. Members should have 2 votes, partner associations should have 1 vote.

Heinz

kechris wrote:I know that there are problems about which countries are full member and can vote in elections.
The solution is simple. All the countries which take part in W.C IN TEAM EVENT.
No special rules and decisions.

And the representers of these countries MUST TOOK SIGNATURES BY THE REPRESINTERS OF CLUBS.
For example i read that Lazaros Papakonstantinou will represent Greece. But maybe he is not accepted by maximum 2 clubs. And maybe Chris Aggelinas can take the OK-signature by 8 clubs in Greece.
Who must vote for Greece? Because Papakonstantinou will vote the A candidate for president and Aggelinas will vote the B candidate. Difficult question...

I lost the last two years to explain that we must protect democracy but many of you gave the answer "that is personal problem". I hope now everybody to understand that the personal problems in close time will be international problems.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:05 am


It's time to be wise.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  von K. on Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:43 am

drastis wrote:I am wondering if any of you guys supporting Piero's idea have thought if there is any difference between this "great" idea and a proper election. What less is offered by an election? One representative from each country will vote for a Board. Simple and according to statuses.

The difference of this idea would be that the "BoD" (not the same kind of BoD as before) elected by the council of nations would only do the practical work. All decisions regarding the rules and big competitions would be made by the council. So the council would be in the place of the Board and the new "Board" would be working for the council according to its decisions.

That's how I understood this idea.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Thossa on Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:07 pm

von K. wrote:
drastis wrote:I am wondering if any of you guys supporting Piero's idea have thought if there is any difference between this "great" idea and a proper election. What less is offered by an election? One representative from each country will vote for a Board. Simple and according to statuses.

The difference of this idea would be that the "BoD" (not the same kind of BoD as before) elected by the council of nations would only do the practical work. All decisions regarding the rules and big competitions would be made by the council. So the council would be in the place of the Board and the new "Board" would be working for the council according to its decisions.

That's how I understood this idea.

That was the idea of the old BoD and we already present it at the congress in Frankfurt. All ideas and proposals of a BoD should have to vote by the responible person of all member nations. Just ask Heinz.
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Admin on Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:14 pm

I believe Piero's idea will never work for many reasons.

First fo all we are already in a situation where CATANIA refuses to accept nations such as Australia "because they are not organized enough", which is ridiculous. FISTF is there to help small associations, not to tell them they have to fill a lot of administrative duties and give as much money as possible to FISTF. So what will happen if representatives from Brazil, Singapore and maybe India want to be part of discussions? We already know it's complicated to get feedback from associations when some important points are in the agenda but a Board (or whatever you call it) with representatives of 15, 20 or 30 countries will be much more difficult to run than a Board of 6 people. Also, there is still the problem to know the importance of each vote. In the United Nations, Aruba has the same importance as China. Do we really think Italians will accept to have the same importance as Monaco or Australia? I have my own idea...

The next point about the 4 groups does not please me because:
- the secretary's job can be done by one person. There is just a need to find the right person for the job. Silvio Catania, if he accepts to stick to this job, could be a good option.
- the finances were perfectly done by Fred Vulpes. There was no reason to replace him. I don't see a need to replace the job of Finances Director by a "commission of finances";
- the communication is also a problem. Koutromanos is everything but the right person for the job. Communication sucks. The old Board deserved maybe 8/10 for the communication but the last Board daserves probably not more than 2/10. So why was it needed to replace the existing team? The first thing Catania did in the few hours after the meeting in Frankfurt was to prevent me to post messages on the FISTF blog. I still don't understand how he did it but he did it. So why did he stop publishing news on the blog? For the period september 2009-january 2010, he was one of the contributors but he never posted anything. So do you really think his ambitions was to keep a good communication department? The website is also a failure but I must admit it has been a failure for many years. I remember the periods when Jon Henning Bergane and Thossa Büsing where the webmasters. For sure these were the best days for the FISTF website.
- the sports department will be the main problem. Right now there is a big problem between different groups of people who have a different view on things. My opinion is that FISTF deserves a circuit that has good system. For instance, qualifying a few players for the World Cup through the world rankings and a few teams for the Europa Cup through the world rankings was great. By stopping that, the circuit becomes meaningless.
Another problem is the lack of knowledge of some people about the sport. For instance, there used to be 16 qualified players in each category but only 8 for the ladies and the U15. The new Board immediately changed that. Sorry but that's silly. In the ladies category, there are just a few nations with regular competitors. So how can you qualify 16 girls in a circuit of 70 girls in the word and you have to pick up the world's number 40 because there are many girls from Belgium, Italy and France in the top? This was one of the worst decisions from the new Board (even if I admit it doesn't have a dramatic influence). It just proves the very bad knowledge of the sport of thse who take decisions.
About the Europa League, we just need to wait what will happen this year. But can a 2nd Europa Cup have much credit if 3 or 4 italian teams play the semi-finals? We all know the 5th team in Italy is much strong than the 3rd team of any other country in the world. So this Europa League is probably not a good thing for the sport... (just my humble opinion).

I'm also surprised Piero doesn't speak about the marketing. For me the marketing is an utopy. I believe someone like Piero has good ideas but when he'll be back to reality, he will realize things are more complicated as they are. Maybe it's the reason why he didn't speak about marketing in his message? In Italy there are great things happening and I respect that. Spain and greece are maybe trying to do good things and France is concentrating more on a domestic circuit than on FISTF (which is a shame as the General Secretary of FISTF is french). But do we really think all efforts really help to bring loads of new players? I don't think so. After more than 20 years in the game, I have learned that the more efforts and energy you put for the game, the less you get something back. If someone has the faith, I wish him good luck but I don't think it's up to FISTF to do the work. It's up to the associations to work at local level. If the world cup is held in Germany (for instance), it's up to the Germans to attract medias. To give an exemple, for the Europa Cup in Tournai, I organized a press conference to present to competition and only one newspaper came. It was the newspaper I work for! But finally, with a bit of luck, 4 or 5 national papers wrote stories about the event and the main commercial TV channel came to speak about the event in the midday news! It was awesome but I believe the part of luck was just very big! I also remember the world cup 2006 in Germany. There was the best media coverage ever (probably since the FISA world Cup 1994 in Chicago). Probably there was a part of luck because the organizers had the support of the FISTF world cup organizers.


Well, all this is just my opinion. I believe the main problem in reality is the way the "SPORTS DEPARTMENT" will work in the future because there is a real conflict between the old system (which was working well) and new ideas (that can bring a lot of risks for the circuit).

I also believe some of the current Board members have too many personal interests and don't really care about what the players want.

So what do the players want? They want to play, have good tournaments and have fun. The rest is just bonus. Players don't go to tournaments because there will be TV channels covering the event. I don't even believe players go to tournaments because there is a prize-money (the prize-money in Majors is quite ridiculous, the winner has not enough to pay the plane tickets).

Finally, I want to comment Piero's sentence saying "too many countries think that new elections in Rain would not solucionate the actual complicated situation of the FISTF". I believe Piero is true. But I also believe the big majority of countries (and players) thinks it's needed to put an end this Board and not only because the Board is acting like a small groups of dictators.

Well, that's all for now.
pierocapponi wrote:Hello,

Today officially ends my disastrous experience FISTF.

As President of the AFM (the Spanish Federation) that I put down here, in my opinion, the only possible solution to the current situation:

"Dear friends,

After some difficulty months in the FISTF and within two weeks for the meeting in Rain we would like to make a small analisis of the situation and advance a proposal.

-In first place, too many countries think that new elections in Rain would not solucionate the actual complicated situation of the FISTF. We have arrived to a very complicated situation without communication between both "bands" and in any case the board would be an explosive mixture.

-In second place, we think that the actual situacion with the table football, with their players and board directors with 40 years old as average age and with a clear shortage of young players (as example, in the Rain championship there are only 2 teams sub 12...) requiere special and extraordinary measures to draw a future.

-We have in the table several "fundamental" points that force us to do not pospone the important decisions: security, privacity, materials, rules. All of them are aspects that we should try if we want that our game would be recognised in the XX century.

For this reason we propose the following:

- Cancel the elections.
- Resignation of the actual board.
- Create a permanent Counsel for president/ representatives. Each country will have one representative in this Councel.
- The Counsel will design 4 representatives for the ordinary administration (Secretary´s office, Finances, Communication, and Sport).
- Each member of the Counsel could present in detail any proposition of change, modification, creation of rules, standard principles, etc. The mentioned propositions will be voted for the Counsel with the simple majority system.
- Under the Counsel petition, it could be celebrated an assembly in the middle of the season to see the situation point.
- The Counsel will decide, under the simple majority formula, when celebrate the new elections.


This is a proposition, obviously, but we truly believe that we need a real change before the situation worsens.



I am looking forward to hearing your comments.



Best regards
"

A big Hug

Piero Capponi
Presidente AFM




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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Heinz Eder on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:03 pm

The proposal was only for the sports department, because i think in the end it is not necessary to form something simular for all departments.
In case of sport the idea was to have a commission where all members are represented. Before any idea will be realized the commission has to vote about the idea. I even would ask for a 2/3 majority of members, otherwise you will have the conflict north/south again. With 2/3 majority you need a mix of associations agreeing on the ideas. The commission also should build groups for different topics like rules, material and so on. They should be the main player in FISTF, the FISTF Board only do the administrative work and take care for realizing the decided ideas of the commission.
The commission also should bring own ideas. All those things should help to bring together associations again.
I think it would also be positive for the image of a board too, if another commission would have to decide about expenses of the board. Only to have a look into the accounts at a Congress every 4 years isn't a perfect situation. So in my opinion there should also be a commission deciding about each EUR paid out from the board.

kind regards
Heinz

Thossa wrote:
von K. wrote:
drastis wrote:I am wondering if any of you guys supporting Piero's idea have thought if there is any difference between this "great" idea and a proper election. What less is offered by an election? One representative from each country will vote for a Board. Simple and according to statuses.

The difference of this idea would be that the "BoD" (not the same kind of BoD as before) elected by the council of nations would only do the practical work. All decisions regarding the rules and big competitions would be made by the council. So the council would be in the place of the Board and the new "Board" would be working for the council according to its decisions.

That's how I understood this idea.

That was the idea of the old BoD and we already present it at the congress in Frankfurt. All ideas and proposals of a BoD should have to vote by the responible person of all member nations. Just ask Heinz.

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:27 pm

The reason why I continued to work with Vincent because they do not "believe" in the same things.

I'm a "visionary", a pathological optimist and I have no intention to comply. It is my way of living life

But when you talk Vincet serious (and not offend anyone) has all my respect.

I make that clear. Committee made up thus:

Catana Secretary
Coppenole communication
Colins Finance
Heder sports

Voting by a simple majority (or 2 / 3) All, to the Internet.

I do not speak of marketing. Marketing is not possible unless we have at least the ambition to grow. Indeed, the fact is useless unless we grow.

I this afternoon (at 18) are meeting with Atletico Madrid to find a formula for cooperation with the Madrid Total Soccer (we can also become the football department table).

The next IGP in July 2011 in Barcelona Espanyol will be played in the new stadium in Cornella / el Prat.

This is marketing? I do not know, is certainly the desire to grow that I wanted to bring FISTF.

Un abrazo.

Piero

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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Admin on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:43 pm

Agreed 99%. I just think catania, for all the bad things he has done in 8 months, should have absolutely no power of decision anymore. As a worker OK and when he will have proved something, then maybe we can discuss again.
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:46 pm


To start we need to make peace. And have the strength to forget.


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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:55 pm

Admin wrote:
...
The website is also a failure but I must admit it has been a failure for many years. I remember the periods when Jon Henning Bergane and Thossa Büsing where the webmasters. For sure these were the best days for the FISTF website.
...

Unfortunately you forgot the period from December 2008 and August 2009, when I built the current FISTF website (with Tagliaferri's help) and I maintained it updated everytime I received any kind of information.

I don't want any credits for myself but you should remember ALL of those who helped you in the past.



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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Admin on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:04 pm

Yes Luis, sorry. it's true. The "sad thing" is when it was closed... Sad
The rest is history... Evil or Very Mad
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Re: do you want the elections

Post  Luis Filipe Horta on Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:08 pm

Admin wrote:Yes Luis, sorry. it's true. The "sad thing" is when it was closed... Sad
The rest is history... Evil or Very Mad

And we should remember why I decided to stop my contribution also, but now it's not the time to go further. We all need clear mind.

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